SGOTM 21 Maintenance Thread

[LowtherCastle]

It seems like we are not allowed to beg anything from William if we want his advice. Does demanding count as begging?

Good question. Admins, please use the precise language from CIV and tell us exactly which functions we're not allowed to use, including the variations for attitude.

 

[BSPollux]

Lets make it easy: You may not take cash from William via diplomatic actions.

Edit: ...if Deckhand doesn't have any objections to that simple solution?

 

[Folket]

Lets make it easy: You may not take cash from William via diplomatic actions.

With that wording we are now allowed to ask for techs from him? But we are no longer allowed to trade techs for his gold?

 

[BSPollux]

With that wording we are now allowed to ask for techs from him? But we are no longer allowed to trade techs for his gold?

It has always been about not asking him for the gold you just gave him.

Edit: But again, you might want to wait for Deckhand to agree.

 

[Yamps]

Begging, demanding tribute and trading techs for gold are 3 very different and precisely defined matters. Whatever the initial intention of the gamemaker may be, it's not a good idea to make these rulings when the game is well under way. The original rule says begging so IMO it would be best not to change the initial meaning, whether you intended it like that or not.

 

[BSPollux]

I thought it was clear but it seems as if some people didn't agree.

 

[elitetroops]

If you say "you may not take cash from William via diplomatic actions", then it definitely wasn't clear. The rules say no tech trading on the same turn we purchase information. Other than that I didn't think there would be any restriction on selling techs for gold...

I'd also like to hear an official ruling on begging for techs. Is that allowed?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Lets make it easy: You may not take cash from William via diplomatic actions.

This new wording would change the ability for players to sell Resources to Willem for Gold per Turn, as doing so would be taking Gold (cash) via a diplomatic action.

It would also change the ability for players to trade Techs to Willem for any amount of Gold on turns when a task/hint/quest/information wasn't purchased, even though it was made explicitly clear earlier that one could make a Trade with Willem for lump sums of Gold on turns when a task/hint/quest/information wasn't purchased:

You may not trade techs with Willem the same turn that you purchase information.

I would strongly encourage you to stick with the original wording that was finalized with updates in blue text by Deckhand before the game started:

Restrictions
You cannot beg from Willem.**
If you purchase info from another leader due to Willem's demise, you may no longer beg from that leader. (no begs after buying)
...
** compliance with no begging is strictly on the honor system

However, what I would also strongly suggest is that you clarify that "Begging" be stated to mean any of:
- Demanding (tribute)
- Requesting (help)

On the forums, when people mention "begging," it is usually done in the context of asking for something (often a lump sum of 10 Gold) from an AI without offering anything in return, regardless of the AI's current Attitude toward the player, as the context is usually to get an AI not to attack the player, and since players are often worried about AIs with poor Attitudes toward the player being the AIs to attack, in many cases "begging" = "Demanding (tribute)" when mentioned in the Strategy & Tips forum.

So, I would not attempt to make the distinction that Yamps has listed by trying to say that "begging" refers to one activity and not the other, but would instead clarify that "begging" refers to either activity and otherwise leave the rules unchanged.

 

[Doshin]

Begging is the generic term that covers a request (could you spare this for a friend) or a demand (we demand that you give us this in tribute).

The rules also make it clear that it is also fine to receive through diplomacy (e.g. selling a tech) on any turn other than that upon which a gift or gifts is/are made, as long as this is not a request or demand ("beg"). Deckhand show this in an illustrative post here, where describes selling a tech one turn after making a gift.

Xpost with Dhoomstriker, and agree with all this:

This new wording would change the ability for players to sell Resources to Willem for Gold per Turn, as doing so would be taking Gold (cash) via a diplomatic action.

It would also change the ability for players to trade Techs to Willem for any amount of Gold on turns when a task/hint/quest wasn't purchased, even though it was made explicitly clear earlier that one could make a Trade with Willem for lump sums of Gold on turns when a task/hint/quest wasn't purchased:



I would strongly encourage you to stick with the original wording that was finalized with updates in blue text by Deckhand before the game started:



However, what I would also strongly suggest is that you clarify that "Begging" be stated to mean any of:
- Demanding (tribute)
- Requesting (help)

On the forums, when people mention "begging," it is usually done in the context of asking for something (often a lump some of 10 Gold) from an AI without offering anything in return, regardless of the AI's current Attitude toward the player, as the context is usually to get an AI not to attack the player, and since players are often worried about AIs with poor Attitudes toward the player being the AIs to attack, in many cases "begging" = "Demanding (tribute)" when mentioned in the Strategy & Tips forum.

So, I would not attempt to make the distinction that Yamps has listed by trying to say that "begging" refers to one activity and not the other, but would instead clarify that "begging" refers to either activity and otherwise leave the rules unchanged.

 

[BSPollux]

So it was clear all the time and didn't need to be 'fixed'?

In that case I'd like to keep the rules as they were set up at the start. I was confused by people asking about them.

 

[Fippy]

Was clear to me..no begs or free stuff receiving from Willy.
But you can sell and trade techs like with other AIs (just not on the same turn you would buy clues).

 

[Yamps]

Lol, I'd never think that one would consider begging for help the same as making an arrogant "we'll kill you otherwise" demand. But whatever, just as long everything is clear to all.

 

[Deckhand]

Begging is the generic term that covers a request (could you spare this for a friend) or a demand (we demand that you give us this in tribute).

I agree.

So it was clear all the time and didn't need to be 'fixed'?
In that case I'd like to keep the rules as they were set up at the start. I was confused by people asking about them.

I agree.

Was clear to me..no begs or free stuff receiving from Willy.
But you can sell and trade techs like with other AIs (just not on the same turn you would buy clues).

I agree.

===================

Lol, I'd never think that one would consider begging for help the same as making an arrogant "we'll kill you otherwise" demand. But whatever, just as long everything is clear to all.

For this game and this rule they are the same.

Transactionally they are the same. Diplomatically, you are limited to one kind or the other based on your relation. And they have different diplomatic consequences.

Your point has some merit and we should have been more explicit.

 

[Deckhand]

btw
I am currently traveling, with spotty internet access (and less time for Civ).
I'm grateful that BSPollux has kept up with your questions.

 

[BSPollux]

The game is running for 53 days now. 65 days are left (55%).

 

[LowtherCastle]

If you accidentally kill all the males, that means you can't buy any more clues, right?

 

[BSPollux]

That is correct.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

Accidentally?

 

[pigswill]

For clarification its ok to beg (please can I have 1G) or demand (give me all your money or else) from a male AI before buying clues but forbidden after buying a clue (through gold or worker gifting).

 

[Gumbolt]

For clarification its ok to beg (please can I have 1G) or demand (give me all your money or else) from a male AI before buying clues but forbidden after buying a clue (through gold or worker gifting).

Not allowed
No Begging (at all) from Willem; nor from another AI after buying courtship information from them

Simples!