SGOTM 21 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

Not 'urging' anyone, just trying to give people a sense for the passing of time. There are good reasons to invest more time into the early turns. And there are good reasons to try to play quick. The decision is yours.

MGN was very quick the last two games.
 
Any chance to get a summary of the options?

From my testing, I found trying to build GLH in Athens a little trickier than Sparta.

Do we want to try and get Math before we chop too many forests?
Galley without a settler ready is not necessary imo.
I would be ok with Sailing > AH, if we have the ability to react quickly to the discovery or not of horses.
I still think getting the 2 gems mined at city 3 should be our next immediate goal.
 
Reminder to double check your .ini file in your BtS folder. I just went to my auto save folder to replay a test turn only to discover that the preceding turn did not exist. :(

Checked my .ini file and the interval had been reset to the default 4, and the number of saves reset to the default 5. I did not change these, something else did, just not sure how. :confused:
 
@nocho, remember you can move the mp out of Athens to bust fog after the gems are mined!
 
Any chance to get a summary of the options?
Options I think before us

1)
AH > Sailing or Sailing > AH
AH first has the potential benifit of finding horses and a few extra hammers by putting a pasture on the Cows asap. in the idea that a pastured cow + forrest hill = 4 hammers
vs Farmed cow + Mined Hill = 3 hammers
With AH first you can pasture the Cows some 6/7 turns earlier for a benifit of the same number of hammers.

Sailing first works (imho) best in conjunction with Mining the gems and upgrading the beaver and ultimately settling Beaver Isle

How to "react quickly" if we dont have horses? Go for IW or Archery? Will we insert those prior to "unlocking" TGL?

Maths, post Sailing>AH>Masonry (in most any order) will take rougly 18 turns (not including Wheel > pottery) I think 18 turns will be too long to wait let alone add 6 turns for Wheel > Pottery. The turns to Maths willl drop a little when we settle Beaver Isle (and/or get the beaver upgraded)

2)
Where to build lighthouse > TGL ? Sparta or Athens?
My choice would be Athens because of simplicity, adding the chops of the forrests to a big project like TGL is much easier than worrying about timing chops to warriors (or possibly a settler)
If we postpone chopping the forests, what to do with the workers?

3) Build queue for Athens?
Settler (Corinth) > Worker (give Wheat to Corinth on last turn) > Settler (to 30+ hammers left for a 2 pop whip/overflow)
 
Well one advantage of going Athens for the glh is units from Sparta won't have so far to move.

If we are going to get settlers from Sparta whilst Athens builds the Glh (though will manage some whips there) then the cow becomes more of a priority tile so AH to sailing seems best...

If we don't have horses I think we will have to self tech archery. At least with bw we won't lose any cities as the ability to whip will help. Just means we could face losing lots of improvements...
 
After thinking it over for a day, I'm on board with namliaM about Sailing first and then AH. It does seem to work out nicely, especially with the GLH planned in Sparta...

Pros of Sparta, it's a stronger hammer city, it can start quite a bit earlier on the lighthouse (if sailing first ;)), it has the extra lake tile also, so the LH provides a little bit extra as compared to Athens.
@nocho, remember you can move the mp out of Athens to bust fog after the gems are mined!
And this was a nice little extra piece of the puzzle for comfort in Sparta. :)

The PPP would be as follows (basic idea courtesy namliaM, with some tweaks):

Tech will go Sailing - AH. Binary research, that is, a turn of 100% cash when we can't maintain slider at 100% research.

Builds
Athens: settler, worker, settler warriors.
Sparta: warrior, worker, lighthouse. (Sailing just in when worker done, so perfect timing).
Corinth: warrior (1 turn), galley (Corinth is founded 1 turn before Sailing is in; anyway having the warrior in the queue for an emergency whip is actually a positive by-product in case of higher than expected barb activity)

Tile juggling notes:
Athens: keeps wheat for first two turns of the existence of Corinth to spit out worker a turn sooner.
Sparta: keep max food while on warrior
Corinth: first two turns forest gem, then wheat. At growth to 2 wheat and gem of course. After border pop work other gem forest as first will be chopped (see below).

Workers:
w0: straight mine gem at Sparta, walk to gem N of Corinth along the south (no barb risk). Chop (!) gem. Point is chop is done when Corinth pops borders so we work other gem. At that moment w2 (from Athens) can immediately start mining saving us a precious worker turn from not having to move onto a forested tile. AH is done when that gem is done, so will stop there, but obvious next target would be gem #3, though we might consider redirecting a worker to a horse tile if we have one then.

w1: (the one from Sparta) mine SW of Sparta. Mine is done when handing over, so can decide then whether to mine another hill, pasture the cows or a potential horse.

w2: walk to Corinth, mine gem.

Other units:
Warrior at Sparta: walk to Corinth founding site, move there before settler does (same turn).
Warrior at Athens: walk to Sparta when gem is online
Scout: continue scouting the NE area. Try and land on forests or hills. With human barbs coming soon, the likely lifespan of the scout will rapidly diminish imo, so I'd just try and get as much info as we can (without risking unnecessarily, obviously).

Civics:
Switch to slavery when settler for Corinth is just done.

In general I think this is the most flexible and integral approach that addresses most of our key points:
- Quickest way of mining the gems
- Quickest expansion rate, including setting up settling the island (and getting furs for another happy)
- Head start on the GLH, which really was (and is) to me the most important consideration. Imo it definitely should go to Sparta, it can start earlier there and the city has more potential hammers.

I attach a save of how things should look like when handing over. Note that all cities have interesting whip options at this point, although possibly we should refrain from all of them. :p

Stopping conditions:
- mainly unexpected barb activity
- can't really think of anything else, but anything else unexpected will make me get back at you too, don't worry

Proposed playing if enough green lights:
24 hours from now, BSP is urging us on after all :whipped:;)
 

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nocho, the PPP generally looks good to me. A couple questions:

- How many turns are we looking at for Sailing -> AH (plus necessary cash turns)?
- What military do we have by the end of the turnset? Two warriors plus the scout?

I like Great Lighthouse in Sparta -- as noted the lake will benefit from the lighthouse, adding another 3F2C tile for the city to use. Athens will want a lighthouse to boost its seafood, but it is not as urgent there.

We will definitely need more military once we finish the Great Lighthouse. I am really hoping there are some horses so we can build something more than warriors. I agree with Sleepless that if we do not have horses we will need to think about Archery, or perhaps IW. Or Alphabet and trade for IW, although we really need to know more AIs before trading could be considered a decent gamble.
 
I think it's 13 or 14 turns, including the switch to slavery.

The military is as you say. Definitely not much and should be next priority. In the test, barbs don't enter borders yet. Bare in mind though that Athens and fur island are save and, as yet, don't need protection (although Athens will soon want a MP for growth). Corinth has the emergency whip at hand. Sparta could easily setup a similar emergency whip if a barb come too close for comfort (at distance 2 from the city).
However, while the barbs don't enter, we stand to gain most from focussing on our prime objectives. A fine balancing act, but it should pay rewards. That's why I wouldn't go spam warriors first indiscriminately. Corinth after galley can also start working warriors by the way.
 
I agree that we are probably safe for a little while longer. But barbs will start entering borders very soon. I believe that transition is determined by the total number of cities per civ worldwide. We will very soon have 3 cities, and I expect the immortal AIs will be doing similarly if not better. So we do need to be very watchful. It helps that we are creative so we get expanded borders very quickly for more visbility.

Count me as a yes vote for the PPP.
 
Builds
Athens: settler, worker, settler.
This would be my only concern. Hopefully we have horses and a chariot (or 2 warriors) after the worker would make me much more comfortable! ;)
 
Playing forward the save you provided Nocho (for which thanks :) ), in a VERY quick test....

Sparta and Athens will finish Lighthouse @ Turn 52, size 5 and 4 each.
Athens takes back wheat from Corinth after pre-building the settler to the 2 pop whip (1 more turn) Starts the lighthouse and a few turns later 2 pops it so to coincide with Settler finishing and worker(s) being dropped off to get beaver Isle settled.
I am first pasturing the Cows, while Sparta works the lake at size 5
Then Putting up a mine for it to work instead.

Athens tries to build TGL, Sparta goes for MAOI just to see the hammer race

At turn 64 with 60 hammers into an extra lighthouse and 100+ into extra wonders we would have 8 warriors from somewhere (plus a workboat for Beaver Isle), falling just short of Maths for the first chops @ Athens to come in.
I remove a barb archer near Sparta and Corinth, just for the hammer race.... The 8-ish warriors extra instead of going into the buildings should help prevent that from happening.

The ottomans were going to beat me to TGL @ Turn 67, I had to go remove their city to prevent it :(

This builds TGL @ Athens in turn 68 at 188 + 71 (as 2 chops come in)
While Sparta now has 184 hammers into Maoi (missing a few hammers in this quick test due to working the lake too long after the damn Archer messed it up) + 44 as the mine from the East hill comes in.
Guess both cities can be made to go roughly a turn, maybe 2, faster with some additional MM and/or whipping power.

So it does seem to NOT matter where we build it, but rather is a point of choice and/or convenience.
Lighthouse would benifit Sparta a bit more due to the lake and Athens can more readily build/whip an additional settler if we choose to vs Sparta that would not be quite so ready to do that. Also the crab may or may not be intended for Athens in the mid/long term vs Beaver Isle?

So count me on the Sparta team as well, as well as confirming the PPP.
One thing to add though, should the scout be able to get to 2 S - 1 SE and find something of worth (like a nice strong food tile!) we may want to consider moving Corinth.... I would add this as a stopping condition.

@ Ronnie
That would delay the settling of Beaver Isle though (or make the settler a less attractive 3 pop whip perhaps?)
Warriors should be produced pretty rapidly after this turnset, producing 1 every 2 turns from Athens and a few from Corinth.
 

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I know in my tests I had 5 warriors by T50. I was building 1-2 warriors after the worker and the settler still made the galley on time. Not sure what I did to make that happen.
 
If we're prepared to whip the settler for beaver island, then we could indeed squeeze in some warriors. Could let it depend on perceived barb activity. I'm certainly not against it, as long as that whip is nicely timed with the galley (which should be build naturally from the other gem chop, so we have about 4 turns more from after the save I posted). Athens can regrow on workboat for beaver, which is quite a good option actually.

NamliaM, noted what you said about what scout might find. But do you mean possibly settling Corinth there, or rather city 4 (instead of beaver)? The latter makes more sense to me in that case. We wanted those gems, right?
 
One thing to add though, should the scout be able to get to 2 S - 1 SE and find something of worth (like a nice strong food tile!) we may want to consider moving Corinth.... I would add this as a stopping condition.

I also asked this a while back, and have since been convinced that it is impractical. There are too many moves to get to the tiles, and we can't easily defend them.
If there are two food tiles i would reconsider, is it just one, I don't think I would do it.

And I like the PPP as well.

GO GO GO :-)
 
I tested going warriors in Athens after worker and it works quite well. Grow Athens to size 6 on 3 warriors, then settler and still only 2 pop whip with decent overflow for a workboat for fur. Assuming here we finish galley naturally through those gem chops.

So change to PPP: warriors in Athens after worker.
 
PPP sounds good to me Nocho.. :)

Also in favour of sailing before AH for an earlier Glh. Especially as we have farmed the cow. Make a bit of use of the worker turns. :)

If possible depending on whats happening I'd substitute a workboat into the warrior builds (after the first couple) from Athens and send it East exploring.

From what we can see so far barbs could be a problem with all the space they have to spawn. Saying that perhaps we will find Shaka just to the West and Wil East very close by. :lol:
 
If we're prepared to whip the settler for beaver island, then we could indeed squeeze in some warriors.
The two pop is working a grass forest, better to whip it than to keep it around.
Not sure on how many Warriors we can fit in before we need to start the Settler... As long as it dont delay Beaver Isle I guess it cant hurt to have the warriors a few turns earlier.

We do need to keep an eye out for maintenance cost once we have (many) units going outside our cultural borders...

NamliaM, noted what you said about what scout might find. But do you mean possibly settling Corinth there, or rather city 4 (instead of beaver)? The latter makes more sense to me in that case. We wanted those gems, right?
No I believe the idea came from before my turnset already, hence the reason for sending the scout in that direction. IF there is food there, Corinth can be placed 1NE or 1N1NE on the coast and reach those two tiles. Having its own food resource vs sharing the wheat with Athens will make it much stronger.... though we may have to reallign the corn city for example.

We should try and aim to have Athens at size 6 and near full food bar so that Athens should grow back to 5 fast. Meanwhile try to grow Corinth to size 3 asap as well....
Some juggling of the wheat is required there.

Random question came to mind today....
Regarding the fish, if that does turn out to be an island with them two Plains Hills, wouldnt it be a better city vs Beaver Isle, offcourse minus the happy face :( but if we dont use that.... a Fish gives more food than a crab, it should have a 2 hammer cc and a mined plains hill...
Would the plains fish be a better city than beaver isle?? Yes, but will it also beat the +1 :) ?? Dunno how much we will use the happy face from the beaver? Before we can get another settler out and get the additional :) anyways
 
A couple more warriors would be good to have. But I don't really like the idea of 6-8 of them -- too much maintenance cost for too little fighting power. :( If we turn out not to have horses then I think we will need Archery. Warriors are just too weak, while archers can stand up to most early enemies. Although I guess if we are planning for eventual HR garrisons for happiness then the warriors might come in useful.

On a possible fish island city...well, let's wait and see if it actually is an island. It would be great if it is -- two offshore cities for higher-value trade routes. :D We would want both pretty quickly, whatever order we decided to settle them. They would also be very easily defended, which never hurts.
 
If we dont have copper or iron we can mix warriors in with our University builds, so yeah no need to 20 warriors, but 4 to bust fog, 4 MP 2 scouts is still 10 warriors... And yes with the limited visibility of land and happyness resources, HR looks likely...
 
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