SGOTM 21 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

Sleepless · Jan 17, 2015

Well I played a couple of games through to turn 28. not far I know but with the unknown variables bit loathe to go to much further. Finished wheel/pottery and still had 4 turns to bw. Tile improvements were 1 farm and 3 roads with pottery. 1 mine and 1 farm with bw route. Worker building second mine in Sparta. As expected very little difference atm. I still favour bw over pottery for the basic reason its not worth working cottages this early. If we have a pop working a grass cottage this early it should be whipped into something else (if we have bw). It takes 10 turns to becomce a hamlet for very little early gain to my mind. If we didn't have the gem mines I would possibly see something different but we do.

AH next to me is a no no. To improve 1 tile just isn't worth it. We might pop horses which would be a help but if we don't??

PLains hill/fish site. Makes 2 offshore cities which would make the Glh even more attractive to me.

haphazard1 · Jan 17, 2015

Sleepless said:
Well I played a couple of games through to turn 28. not far I know but with the unknown variables bit loathe to go to much further. Finished wheel/pottery and still had 4 turns to bw. Tile improvements were 1 farm and 3 roads with pottery. 1 mine and 1 farm with bw route. Worker building second mine in Sparta. As expected very little difference atm. I still favour bw over pottery for the basic reason its not worth working cottages this early. If we have a pop working a grass cottage this early it should be whipped into something else (if we have bw). It takes 10 turns to becomce a hamlet for very little early gain to my mind. If we didn't have the gem mines I would possibly see something different but we do.

Early cottages are always a trade off. You want the developed cottages later, but they are so very weak when first built. Since we do have three gems and eventually the furs for some strong commerce tiles, I think we can delay the cottages a bit.

Sleepless said:
AH next to me is a no no. To improve 1 tile just isn't worth it. We might pop horses which would be a help but if we don't??

How much is knowledge of horses (either where they are or that we do not have any nearby) worth? Hard to say for certain, of course. If we had another AH resource visible I would be tempted to go for the tech, but as is maybe it will have to wait.

Sleepless said:
PLains hill/fish site. Makes 2 offshore cities which would make the Glh even more attractive to me.

The Great Lighthouse definitely looks very strong for this map. Which tech path gives us the best chance of getting it? I would think BW for chops and whips would have to be favored. If we are really fortunate, the map makers will have placed some copper somewhere reachable. If not, we may have issues with barbs.

But I think it is a risk worth taking. If we have neither copper nor horses, then we will face a tough choice on IW or Archery. But we shall see.

namliaM · Jan 17, 2015

Sleepless said:
PLains hill/fish site. Makes 2 offshore cities which would make the Glh even more attractive to me.

I cant see that that is an island, it could still connect to our lands thru the north

17 30% to have 0 overflow to BW
18 50% for 5 + 20% + 1 beakers into bw
19 0% + 1 beakers into Wheel
20 0% wheel
21 Now at 33 gold, 100% down BW
22 Settle Sparta > Warrior , mine @ Athens done move to Cow
25 Net crabs @ Athens, since the cow is getting a farm Sparta has its food for now
31 Worker needs to wait 1 turn for chop/mining the gem @ Sparta, 12 beakers short with 6 gold in the bank

Back to Turn 20
21 Now at 33 gold, 100% down BW
22 Settle Sparta > Warrior, mine @ Athens done move to Cow
24 Workboat done @ Athens, goes to net Crabs @ Sparta Start warrior to defog 2 gems site
27 Warrior @ Athens done, start worker
28 Crabs at Sparta netted, BW now in 4
31 Worker needs to wait 1 turn for chopming the gem @ Sparta, 16 beakers short 6 gold in the bank

Back to turn 20
20 Now at 23 gold, go 100% at BW
22 Settle Sparta > Warrior, mine @ Athens done move to Cow
24 Workboat done @ Athens, goes to net Crabs @ Sparta Start warrior to defog 2 gems site
27 Warrior @ Athens done, start worker
28 Crabs at Sparta netted, BW now in 4
31 worker needs to wait 1 turn for chopming the gem @ Sparta, 10 beakers short
32 BW in 0% @ Wheel Start chopming,
32 Worker from Athens goes to chop hill of Corinth Start settler (1 extra turn travel due to forest growth @ Athens)
34 Now at 34 gold, start Sailing at 100%
35 Warrior done from Sparta, goes scouting since my scout died chopming should finish a second warrior for MP soon
38 Chop from hill helped finish Settler (1 extra turn travel due to forest growth @ Athens)
38 Corinth worker goes 1 N to prechop the gem, Athens starts Warrior
39 Chopming produced warrior (MP for Sparta), start another
40 Warrior done in Athens (MP) Start workboat, Warrior done in Sparta goes scout/fogbust
41 Sailing in @ 40%, now Masonry in 5 @ 100%
41 Worker @ sparta starts to mine West hill, Corinth founded > Galley
41 Corinth claims Wheat for growth, chop goes into Galley
44 Workboat done @ Athens goes to net Crabs Start Worker
45 Masonry in @ 90%, Crabs @ Athens Netted, 0% @ Wheel
45 retrieting warriors into borders to simulate them exploring far far away.
46 100% @ Wheel
48 Sparta stops Lighthouse build, start workboat for Wet Beaver Isle
49 Wheel in at 40% > Pottery @ 100%, Worker done @ Athens start Settler goes to Chop the S hill
49 athens reclaims Wheat to aid settler, Corinth now size 3
52 Pottery in, Start AH @ 100%
52 WB done @ Sparta goes to Wet beaver Isle starts Granary
53 Second gem @ Corinth online (should have chopped then mined to get galley earlier)
53 Galley done, start Lighthouse @ Corinth
53 0%
54 100% @ AH, first barb warrior shows up at my borders
55 Settler done @ Athens, revolt to Slavery
56 Chopming S of Athens done into Granary
56 Whip lighthouse in Sparta for 2 pop into TGL
56 Crabs at wet beaver isle netted, settler put on isle
57 AH in @ 40%, Sparta works 2 mines for moar hammers less food (no cows)
58 2 barb warriors kill themselves on my fortified warriors (that should be out scouting)
58 Writing @ 100%
59 Start camp @ Beaver, Athens finishes Granary, starts Lighthouse
60 Writing in @ 50%, Start maths @ 0% all cities start libraries
61 Barb Archer kills one of my warriors (that should be out scouting)
62 preserve the library in Sparta for a 2 pop whip in a few turns
62 Beaver camped, claimed by Athens
63 Archer pillages mine

, Maths @ 100% with 121 gold in the bank in 7 turns at -12
64 Archer pillages another mine @ Sparta

beaver online for +1

65 Whip library @ Sparta Overflow to TGL
65 Lib done in Athens, continue lighthouse whip that for 2 pop into Warriors
65 Give Crab from Athens to Wet Beaver Isle
66 Archer pillages Gem mine @ Corinth, and Farm @ Cows
67 Archer @ Sparta kills itself on the city defenses
67 warrior done at Athens goes fogbust
68 Archer kills my defensive warrior in Corinth and takes the city

I stop here, 396 beakers into maths
122 hammers into TGL (with a granary to be whipped waiting for 27 hammers and a chop for another 30 in 1 turn) == Nearly done

Will probably need some form of fogbusting/advanced warriors to keep those things away from our cities
Which means more hammers needed into warriors, cause we DO need atleast 2 or 3 warriors and perhaps a Workboat out scouting.

The whip is nice, however, isnt really that nice before having granaries (1:1 at size 6)
Granary makes it 1:2, which still makes a grass hill 1:3 better.
Only trouble really is i.e. at Sparta you are trading Cows for hill which is 3 food for 3 hammers. Thus pottery before BW can make sence, however that requires we delay the gems for 20 odd turns which is a lot of commerce.

AH Long / midterm will definately pay off from the hammers in Sparta

Compared to this attempt I wouldnt mind seeing that corn city founded... THAT can use some cottages as well as act as a strong fog buster and choke point for any barbs comming from the north.
Too much unknown yet about the west to see something simular.
One fogbusting warrior in the NW seems wize as well.

I did go VERY light on the whip this time around

Ronnie1 · Jan 17, 2015

Sleepless said:
Well I played a couple of games through to turn 28. not far I know but with the unknown variables bit loathe to go to much further. Finished wheel/pottery and still had 4 turns to bw. Tile improvements were 1 farm and 3 roads with pottery. 1 mine and 1 farm with bw route. Worker building second mine in Sparta. As expected very little difference atm. I still favour bw over pottery for the basic reason its not worth working cottages this early. If we have a pop working a grass cottage this early it should be whipped into something else (if we have bw). It takes 10 turns to becomce a hamlet for very little early gain to my mind. If we didn't have the gem mines I would possibly see something different but we do.

AH next to me is a no no. To improve 1 tile just isn't worth it. We might pop horses which would be a help but if we don't??

PLains hill/fish site. Makes 2 offshore cities which would make the Glh even more attractive to me.

Pottery is more for early Granaries. If we start whipping with BW early, Granaries add 50% which is very significant imo.

AH before Mining gets us 2 very strong starting cities if we settle next to the cows and start improving them immediately. AH does not push Mine > BW back very far imo.

AH is also not about 1 tile. Horses are a solid tile to work if we find them and better than Axemen for exploring.

We don't know for sure those plains hills are not connected.

As already stated, GLH is predicted to go between 1200-600BC based on 20 tests I did so far. Average date of 875 and a Median of 875-900.

I would also appreciate if I could get some feedback on some of the test games and results I have posted.

I posted 2 trial results through T81 to compare data. I also posted 2 saves to T30. Mailman (MM) has also posted some results that no one is really commenting on. We can probably eliminate some testing options by just visually inspecting some things and saying, option 1 is clearly better than option 2 or vice verse. If the the options are close, can they be refined or improved some way? I completely understand that not everyone has the time to do a lot of testing. I happen to have some extra right now. If you want an idea tested, let me know, and I'll get on it and provide logs and any ending/intermediate saves you want to see! :scan:

namliaM · Jan 17, 2015

Well my above attempt has TGL nearly finished at 1280 bc, roughly turn 70, were it not for those / that damn archer. The added hammers of the cow would certainly help in getting a few more warriors out.

If we do AH > Mining we miss a strong tile at the capitol to work after finishing the workboat.
If we do AH > Mining I would be very tempted to build its own boat in Sparta and use the workboat from Athens for its crabs... but what to build in Athens? Worker > Settler (or reverse) at size 3 till we have Mining and ultimately BW? This would mean unescorted settler to Corinth?
Or insert a warrior which would take 5 turns.... A real qiuck test does delay BW by 7 turns which equates to 50 commerce but with Sparta at size 4 you can really pump out warriors and probably a settler for the corn... need to do a proper test

I wanted to test my own game before looking at yours, next window of opportunity I will have a look at the two games you posted...
Having played thru to turn 70 with your new map, does change things a little... i.e. a (new) target for a new city near the corn, Just planting the city on the map in world builder as the fifth city adds 8gpt to maintenance

that is 3 rivirside cottages + traderoute to Wet Beaver Isle
Certainly worth the investment long term, but a big drag on our current economy.

Our goals should include to have 2 scouting warriors, working under the assumption that our scout will die some day and a warrior will be stronger.
Scout should try to keep alive as long as possible even if that means moving one tile per turn to make sure that he doesnt land next to a bear!
Also 3 busting warriors to clear our immediate north and the north of those mountains due west of Sparta

Ronnie1 · Jan 17, 2015

I really like this option!

Spoiler :

Ronnie1 · Jan 17, 2015

I run the test I just loved out to T81 expecting GREAT results, and was very disappointed. I pushed back Pottery to after Sailing and the results just aren't as good. I don't get the GLH significantly sooner and I still haven't reached Currency by T81.

The Granaries just keep improving the results, whether I get them very early(before BW) or mid early(after BW or AH but before Sailing) as compared to pushing them back behind Sailing > Masonry which we really need no later than T50 to give a good chance at getting the wonder.

Ronnie1 · Jan 17, 2015

We could take a totally different approach and focus on just a 2 or 3 city start to the GLH and then REX after that.

Tech path something like Mine > BW > Wheel > Pottery > Sailing > Masonry. Only build workers warriors and what is necessary to get GLH ASAP, probably in Athens as opposed to City 2 where I have been building it.

namliaM · Jan 17, 2015

Way way to much worker movement in your save to my liking and why not even farm the tile W of the wheat... this is otherwize idle time...

I would use the surplus for a worker/settler combo instead of moving the one worker around...
See attached saves real quick click work, since I dont have the real time atm... but cant not do it either :eek:

So can probably be optimized here and there.

Features nearly 3 cities, 2 workers, 3 MP warriors
1 warrior comming up and a scouting Workboat (or to be replaced by a scouting warrior)
BW by turn 40

Ronnie1 · Jan 17, 2015

Way way to much worker movement in your save to my liking and why not even farm the tile W of the wheat... this is otherwize idle time...

In which save?

Reason for not farming is I would rather fogbust with the worker for safety. Farm will be replaced by Cottage eventually so wasted also imo.

namliaM · Jan 17, 2015

notes on your saves
why dont you farm the riverside at all? particular with Sparta SE of the lake

2nd save the warior is needed faster, some hammer MM needed
possibly revolt to slavery and whip a worker for 2 pop?

1st svae better management on the warrior but wht the two turn difference in the research?

namliaM · Jan 17, 2015

Ronnie1 said:
In which save?

the I really like this option one

Ronnie1 · Jan 17, 2015

I see where you went to T29, I really think my position at that time is stronger. Sending the 1st WB to Sparta so it gets there at growth to size 2 puts it significantly ahead imo.

I also think we need more warriors for fogbusting by T39-40. 4 maybe 5 even better, more like this maybe.

Ronnie1 · Jan 17, 2015

I think all those riverside need to be cottaged eventually. Why waste turn farming them?

2nd save the warior is needed faster, some hammer MM needed

???

namliaM · Jan 17, 2015

Ronnie1 said:
Reason for not farming is I would rather fogbust with the worker for safety. Farm will be replaced by Cottage eventually so wasted also imo.

The farm would be usefull atleast for one turn and later for Corinth ...
Probably be usefull at size 5 as well...

namliaM · Jan 18, 2015

My attempt at "rushing" to TGL

Spoiler :

I believe this is the fastest way to TGL turn 67 in Athens, now that we know this, we can tweak it to our desires...
i.e. corinth at this point should be building Granary not Lighthouse
Instead of lighthouse in Sparta at turn 48 we should priotitize the workboat for Beaver Isle that was semi-whiped turn 56 and prioritize warriors to fogbust and go explore.

Some more clicking after completion of TGL -semi unintrested-

Spoiler :

Possible tech trades from worldbuilder
Catherin is up to IW/Monarchy
Elizabeth has IW
Isabella has Mono / Priesthood
Willem has Mono / IW
Boudica Poly / IW
Most seem to have IW at this point and the religious techs obviously and up to Writing (some lack writing though)

namliaM · Jan 18, 2015

Ronnie1 said:
I also think we need more warriors for fogbusting by T39-40. 4 maybe 5 even better, more like this maybe.

Think you went overboard on the warriors there....
Sparta in my save from turn 40 can build a warrior every two turns

Not so sure about your position being stronger, Sparta might get the food a little faster its size is very simular to mine BUT has NO mines to work

My athens is a 2 pop smaller, but I have the settler for corinth already on the floor which would cost you 2 more turns and a three pop whip (or more turns) while my Athens will grow a pop....

Overall that puts your T42 Athens 2 pop behind and atleast 2 mines behind my version to gain a little in Sparta in food ?

Ronnie1 · Jan 18, 2015

I like your T40 save quite a lot.

I have multiple runs where I got Currency before T80. None of them were optimized, trying different things.

nocho · Jan 18, 2015

Good work on the testing, namliam and ronnie. :goodjob:

Wish I had more time and energy to particiate more in that. Are you now both saying AH first? Is the scout fogbusting Sparta's settling spot?

Ronnie1 · Jan 18, 2015

I am definitely using the scout to fogbust the city site! I like AH next for sure.

These were the tests to T81. I played these before we had the new map data, but still relevant imo.

SGOTM 21 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

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