SGOTM 21 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

@h1, we have enough short term if the scout lives and we produce some from Corinth immediately after the galley. In my testing, I get 2 produced in 1 turn each.

We currently have the scout and a warrior headed west, + Shaka's archer + the culture that is not in the test game. We already have 2 warriors in the east/northeast, we just need to spread them out carefully. ;)

The fastest way I have been able to get the horse city planted is to go Settler > Settler in Athens. Straight build the 1st settler, delaying Beaver Isle a bit, but not affecting Sparta :). This allows the 2nd settler to be whipped T56 and founding Horse ~T61 based on exact location.
 
OK, ran another round of tests. Much happier about our level of safety in this set. :) TGL not affected (still can be whipped T64), Beaver Isle (Thebes) founding date not affected, Argos founded for horses 4 turns later than my previous test. But in return for that delay we have 3 additional warriors, which makes our civ a lot safer, and could have built more at later points if we needed them. The better fog busting set up also helped, although it took a while to actually get warriors into all the positions.

I ended up facing the same number of barbs as my previous full test (1 archer and 2 warriors). But instead of having only 1 warrior to face each (and at poor odds plus risk of pillaging), this time I always had a back up warrior available and could choose better defensive terrain. Any pillage attempt would have required a barb unit to defeat 2 or even 3 warriors to get to our improvements. :) By T65 and finishing TGL, I had a garrison unit in all cities except Thebes, all my planned fog busting sites occupied, and a free warrior exploring westward.

Here were the fog busting sites I decided upon after reading the article Ronnie1 linked. I am counting on Willem's borders by the gems to cover that area, with our warrior in the NNW position using the water to give more vision. Our scout would head further west, and hopefully AI units roaming around would also provide some fog busting in the real game.

Spoiler :




I occupied the spot E of the corn and the spot west of it early with the 2 warriors around Corinth. The sheep spot would be taken by the warrior from Corinth built from galley overflow, although he had to fight the existing barb warrior to get there. He paused in a forest tile and won on defense, but if he had died the archer being built in Corinth would have been ready before the barb could reach our gem mines.

The spot west of Sparta was not occupied until just before TGL completed, so we did get a barb archer and another barb warrior coming from the west. But the 3 extra warriors from Athens were marching westward and intercepted them before they caused any real trouble. The archer died attacking our horse site explorer on a forested hill -- a bit lucky. But with three more warriors plus a garrison warrior in Sparta would could have handled him unless the RNG was just horrible to us. The barb warrior did kill one of ours (defending on a hill, so poor result for us) but was immediately finished off by the next warrior in line. Sparta was always pretty safe, and Argos always had at least 2 warriors available.

Test game log:

Spoiler :

Turn 46/500 (2160 BC) [31-Jan-2015 19:50:10]
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 27 per turn, 15 in the bank

Turn 47/500 (2120 BC) [31-Jan-2015 19:50:11]
100% Research: 35 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -8 per turn, 42 in the bank

Turn 48/500 (2080 BC) [31-Jan-2015 19:51:55]
100% Research: 35 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -8 per turn, 34 in the bank

Turn 49/500 (2040 BC) [31-Jan-2015 19:52:28]
A Pasture was built near Sparta
100% Research: 35 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -8 per turn, 26 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Masonry

Turn 50/500 (2000 BC) [31-Jan-2015 19:53:25]
Research begun: The Wheel (3 Turns)
A Mine was built near Corinth
100% Research: 39 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -8 per turn, 18 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Athens
Athens finishes: Settler
Corinth finishes: Galley

Turn 51/500 (1960 BC) [31-Jan-2015 19:55:53]
Athens begins: Warrior (5 turns)
Athens begins: Work Boat (10 turns)
100% Research: 39 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -9 per turn, 10 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: The Wheel
Athens grows to size 4
Athens finishes: Work Boat
Sparta grows to size 5
Sparta finishes: Lighthouse
Corinth grows to size 3
Corinth finishes: Warrior

Turn 52/500 (1920 BC) [31-Jan-2015 20:00:31]
Research begun: Archery (2 Turns)
Athens begins: Warrior (3 turns)
Sparta begins: The Great Lighthouse (25 turns)
Corinth begins: Warrior (3 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 31 per turn, 1 in the bank

After End Turn:
Athens finishes: Warrior

Turn 53/500 (1880 BC) [31-Jan-2015 20:06:31]
Athens begins: Warrior (3 turns)
A Fishing Boats was built near Athens
100% Research: 42 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -11 per turn, 32 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Civics Change: Mehmed II(Ottomans) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

Turn 54/500 (1840 BC) [31-Jan-2015 20:16:03]
A Camp was built near Athens
Thebes founded
Thebes begins: Lighthouse (60 turns)
A Mine was built near Sparta
100% Research: 50 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -13 per turn, 21 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Archery
Athens grows to size 5
Athens finishes: Warrior
Corinth finishes: Warrior

Turn 55/500 (1800 BC) [31-Jan-2015 20:20:13]
Research begun: Pottery (2 Turns)
Athens begins: Settler (7 turns)
Corinth begins: Archer (5 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 39 per turn, 8 in the bank

Turn 56/500 (1760 BC) [31-Jan-2015 20:25:34]
100% Research: 54 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -15 per turn, 47 in the bank

After End Turn:
Sparta grows to size 6

Other Player Actions:
While defending in the wild, Warrior (0.56/2) defeats Barbarian Archer (Prob Victory: 65.7%)

Turn 57/500 (1720 BC) [31-Jan-2015 20:29:25]
100% Research: 52 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -15 per turn, 32 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Pottery

Turn 58/500 (1680 BC) [31-Jan-2015 20:32:55]
Research begun: Writing (2 Turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 31 per turn, 17 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Athens
Athens finishes: Settler
Thebes's borders expand

Other Player Actions:
While defending in the wild, Warrior 5 (Corinth) (0.08/2) defeats Barbarian Warrior (Prob Victory: 90.9%)

Turn 59/500 (1640 BC) [31-Jan-2015 20:39:47]
Athens begins: Warrior (5 turns)
A Mine was built near Sparta
100% Research: 45 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -17 per turn, 48 in the bank

After End Turn:
Athens finishes: Warrior
Corinth finishes: Archer
Thebes grows to size 2

Other Player Actions:
While defending in the wild near Sparta, Warrior 4 (Athens) loses to Barbarian Warrior (0.24/2) (Prob Victory: 74.9%)

Turn 60/500 (1600 BC) [31-Jan-2015 20:43:29]
Athens begins: Granary (20 turns)
Corinth begins: Granary (12 turns)
While attacking, Warrior 6 (Athens) decimates Barbarian Warrior (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
While attacking in Greek territory near Sparta, Warrior 6 (Athens) (2.00/2) defeats Barbarian Warrior (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
100% Research: 49 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -18 per turn, 31 in the bank

After End Turn:
Whip anger has decreased in Athens
Athens grows to size 4

Turn 61/500 (1560 BC) [31-Jan-2015 20:47:23]
80% Research: 39 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
20% Gold: -9 per turn, 13 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Athens
Tech research finished: Writing
Athens finishes: Granary

Other Player Actions:
Civics Change: Elizabeth(England) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

Turn 62/500 (1520 BC) [31-Jan-2015 20:50:50]
Research begun: Alphabet (10 Turns)
Athens begins: Library (15 turns)
A Mine was built near Corinth
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 30 per turn, 4 in the bank

Turn 63/500 (1480 BC) [31-Jan-2015 20:56:16]
Argos founded
Argos begins: Granary (30 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 29 per turn, 34 in the bank

After End Turn:
Corinth grows to size 4

Turn 64/500 (1440 BC) [31-Jan-2015 20:59:23]
A Farm was built near Corinth
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 34 per turn, 63 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Sparta
Athens grows to size 3
Sparta finishes: The Great Lighthouse

Turn 65/500 (1400 BC) [31-Jan-2015 21:02:40]
Sparta begins: Granary (12 turns)

Test game save for your examination:

T65 Test Save HH2A

I will put together a PPP based on this test run shortly. All suggestions, ideas, questions welcome. :D
 
@h1, we have enough short term if the scout lives and we produce some from Corinth immediately after the galley. In my testing, I get 2 produced in 1 turn each.

We currently have the scout and a warrior headed west, + Shaka's archer + the culture that is not in the test game. We already have 2 warriors in the east/northeast, we just need to spread them out carefully. ;)

In my first set of tests I really did not feel safe with the military we had, even with Corinth producing additional ones after the galley. I ended up losing improvements (gem mines at Corinth and mines/cows at Sparta) because we just did not have enough units. :(

The fastest way I have been able to get the horse city planted is to go Settler > Settler in Athens. Straight build the 1st settler, delaying Beaver Isle a bit, but not affecting Sparta :). This allows the 2nd settler to be whipped T56 and founding Horse ~T61 based on exact location.

My first tests got Argos founded by the horses on T59, but barbs were a major problem. The more recent "safer" tests had Argos on T63 (or maybe a bit later, if we find resources and need to move a bit farther west/southwest). So there is some delay of the horse city. But I think it is worth it for the increased safety and reduced chances of delays to the Great Lighthouse.
 
OK, as promised here is my draft PPP based on the second set of "safer" tests with more military.

Draft PPP for Turnset starting T46

Goals

- Work towards the Great Lighthouse in Sparta, target for whipping T64
- Found Thebes on Beaver Isle
- Explore horses site for resources, determine settling location
- Improve our safety by building military for fog busting, garrisons, exploration

Tech

All research will be binary, building up cash at 0% slider until we have enough to finish the next tech.

- Masonry (for TGL)
- Wheel (to hook up furs so Sparta can grow to size 6)

These two techs need to be first to avoid delaying TGL. Later techs can be shifted in order if desired.

- Pottery
- Writing
- ???

By T65 we will have money for about 4 turns of 100% research. We can fit Archery in if we feel the need for stronger units, about 3 turns (2 at 100% plus 1 turn cash). If we are safe enough we could skip it until we need it. Iron Working would take about 7 turns (including cash turns), Horse Back Riding about 8 turns (likewise including cash turns). Or we could head for Alphabet and hope to trade for Archery, IW, maybe more. Math for improved chops is also a possibility, but won't be done in time to help TGL plans.

Cities

Athens - takes wheat immediately, starts settler. Whip for 2 pop max overflow when it reaches 68/100 (T51). Overflow into work boat for Thebes (1 turn). Regrow on warrior, warrior, reaching size 5 as second one finishes. Then settler for horses site, whipping as soon as possible (T58). Then warrior for garrison, followed by granary. Whip for 2-pop (T61) with food box < half. Give wheat back to Corinth, overflow into library to regrow.

Sparta - Finish lighthouse working gem mine, mine, crab, cows (T52). Grow to size 5 same turn and work lake to grow. When hit size 6 (T57) shift lake to additional grass hill mine, new pop to forested grass hill. When final grass hill mine completes (T59) shift crab to new mine. City will be starving by 1 food/turn but TGL will complete before any pop is lost. Whip TGL as soon as possible (T64).

Corinth - Finish galley while working both gems tiles (T51). Overflow to warrior (T52, heads north for sheep fog busting site). Warrior (T55 heads west, or as needed). From this point we can build more warriors if needed/desired, or start on a granary. As of T61 take the wheat back from Athens to boost growth.

Thebes - Work crabs (will be improved same turn as founded), building lighthouse. Add furs once size 2 (Athens will not have pop to work them due to whipping).

Argos - Unknown, but probably work horse tile while building granary.

Workers

Single worker by Sparta will move and pasture the cows, then mine the two grass hills one after another. This should be finished T59, after which the workers moves west to pasture the horses at newly-founded Argos (or otherwise help the new city).

Pair of workers by Corinth mine the second gems tile (not chop-then-mine). Once completed, move into Corinth and board the new galley to be ferried to Beaver Isle. Unload onto the furs tile, then camp and road it. Reboard the galley, getting unloaded in Athens. Move to Sparta's forested grass hill (2 turns to get there), then mine it (not chop-then-mine). Once finished can do whatever is needed; moving south to finish the farm west of the wheat to help Corinth seemed useful.

Units

- Scout moves westward, working around Willem's territory. Use defensive terrain where possible, but explore as much as possible before being killed by barbs.
- Warrior by Sparta heads west to explore the horses area to determine the best city location. If he survives will garrison Argos once founded.
- Two warriors by Corinth head north and northwest to fog busting spots (corn and NNW sites).
- Warrior in Athens heads for Sparta to garrison for happiness.
- Galley from Corinth ferries workers and settler to Beaver Isle, returns workers to Athens, then explores fish isle.
- New warriors from Corinth head to sheep fog busting site, then anywhere needed (or west to explore if no immediate threats).
- New warriors from Athens head to Sparta, then west or wherever needed.

Sparta needs a constant garrison unit to avoid unhappiness once it reaches size 5. Other cities will be small enough to be OK without.

Diplomacy

- Keep EP on Willem for future spy action (like stealing his treasury after we pay him lots of money for secrets :D)
- What to do about any requests (change civics, adopt religion, etc.)? Not likely to happen, but we should decide what we want to do just in case. If a religion spreads to us (we should be so fortunate! :lol:) do we adopt it if asked?

Civics

No action planned

Religion

No action planned

Stopping Conditions

- Any AI declares war on us
- The Great Lighthouse gets built by an AI
- Serious barb threats to our improvements or cities
- Settler for horse city ready to move west of Sparta -- stop and get team approval for settling location
- Anything else unexpected that requires team input

Open Questions

- What to do about any diplomatic requests?

I plan to play until the second settler reaches the hills west of Sparta (about T62 if all goes as expected). Our exploring warrior should have had enough turns to explore the area so we can decide where to plant the city. That will be 16 turns, which should be enough for the turnset since we are getting past the very early turns. Someone else can then take over to found Argos and finish TGL.

Team input requested! :) Let me know what you think.
 
Why not build a warrior in Athens now? If you are going to whip anyway, at least we are whipping from 6-4 instead of 5-3. Once the Beaver is online this warrior can move out to fogbust also. It is much more efficient to grow now and whip from a bigger size.

No offense, but you have whipped away a lot of pop from what I can see.

Will you please put up a summary similar to what we had before so we can better compare options.
 
Did someone say something about having to submit a T60 save?
 
PPP seems good to me haphazard1..

Regarding length of the turnset I wouldn't mind if you played it in 2 halves up to the building of the Glh. Whether we get that wonder will have a big effect on the game and if the next player has to pause/upload after 2 turns seems a bit pointless.

Tech..

Happy to go masonry - wheel - pot - writing. Once we have writing in its best to turn off tech unless needed till we have some libs built for the 25% research bonus. Might also have to fit in archery for defence purposes..
 
Good work on compiling the PPP! Some very short points, as I got to go now...

- I think 16 turns is too long TBH. Fine if you play 16, but then break the set in 2, please. I see too many diverging paths in the 2nd part...
- Don't really like the 3 whips in Athens
- Would probably also grow to 6 first.
- Corinth when at 4 should really build a settler and whip it IMO. If not for horses, then either for fish or corn.
- Do those 2 workers when back from the island really need to go both to that hill? Is that essential for GLH date? If not, I'd like to finish that farm first with one of them.
 
Why not build a warrior in Athens now? If you are going to whip anyway, at least we are whipping from 6-4 instead of 5-3. Once the Beaver is online this warrior can move out to fogbust also. It is much more efficient to grow now and whip from a bigger size.
- Would probably also grow to 6 first.

I am not sure why whipping at a larger size would be more efficient? :confused: Larger sizes require more food to grow, so the food -> hammer conversion rate is lower. But I can check this. The main item is that I am aiming for max overflow, and the settler build at size 5 sets this up almost perfectly for a whip at 68/100 on the settler.

No offense, but you have whipped away a lot of pop from what I can see.
- Don't really like the 3 whips in Athens

If we want more military, then we have to get hammers from somewhere. Whipping is pretty much the only way right now, unless we want to delay the horses settler even further. We could delay the third whip at Athens, but since it is for the granary I think it is well worth it. Athens can grow back very very fast with all its food once it has the granary. And with Corinth to use the wheat and Thebes to work the furs, we are using all our strong improved tiles every turn.

Anyway, that is very late in the turnset, maybe into the next turnset, so we can certainly discuss it further.

Will you please put up a summary similar to what we had before so we can better compare options.

Similar to which post? I can put one together.

Did someone say something about having to submit a T60 save?

Thanks for the reminder! We definitely need to remember this.

Regarding length of the turnset I wouldn't mind if you played it in 2 halves up to the building of the Glh. Whether we get that wonder will have a big effect on the game and if the next player has to pause/upload after 2 turns seems a bit pointless.
- I think 16 turns is too long TBH. Fine if you play 16, but then break the set in 2, please. I see too many diverging paths in the 2nd part...

If we go all the way through building TGL it would be 19 turns. I think that is too long for one player, even if we break it into two parts. Maybe just play 10 turns and hand over at that point? It is not a "natural" stopping point but it might be better to just set a fixed period.

Of course, if we do that something unexpected will probably happen at turn 6. :lol:

Tech..

Happy to go masonry - wheel - pot - writing. Once we have writing in its best to turn off tech unless needed till we have some libs built for the 25% research bonus. Might also have to fit in archery for defence purposes..

Archery can go anywhere after Masonry and Wheel. It really depends on whether we need better defense at that point. In the test I put it in after Wheel, but then did not actually need it even though I built one archer in Corinth.

Waiting for libraries is a good idea after Writing, especially since we get cheap creative ones. But we will need some granaries as well, not to mention some more workers. So that might be a longer wait.

- Corinth when at 4 should really build a settler and whip it IMO. If not for horses, then either for fish or corn.

I think we want to get a granary in Corinth (and other cities) ASAP once we finish Pottery, before we whip non-granary things. We have delayed Pottery and granaries quite a bit as it is. In any case, I think this will be for the next turnset. So we can discuss it further.

- Do those 2 workers when back from the island really need to go both to that hill? Is that essential for GLH date? If not, I'd like to finish that farm first with one of them.

I will need to check the timing. With two workers mining (rather than chop-then-mine since Sparta is working the tile and we don't want to lose the hammer/turn) they finished one turn before the whip of TGL. We might be able to just chop the forest with one worker and make the timing work.

Corinth had not grown to size 4 to need the additional farm, though. So I am not sure if finishing it earlier would actually help.
 
I will have to take a look if it helps, but whipping TGL is like a 50% penalty vs normal whipping right? Can we whip a settler or a worker with only 1 or two turns invested and get near-the-same end result?

3 whips inside of 10 turns would leave 2 pop unhappy for 20 turns, that is some heavy whipping.
Also given the food surplus already at Athens, perhaps we can forgo/delay the Granary in favour of a Library. Then a few turns later get the Granary in place?
 
@h1, some of my reasoning,

Especially early in the game, you want to keep your populations high because you get to work more tiles. That is why it is more efficient.

You whip the 1st settler for max overflow but it is at least turn earlier than necessary to get on the boat.

f we want more military, then we have to get hammers from somewhere. Whipping is pretty much the only way right now, unless we want to delay the horses settler even further. We could delay the third whip at Athens, but since it is for the granary I think it is well worth it. Athens can grow back very very fast with all its food once it has the granary. And with Corinth to use the wheat and Thebes to work the furs, we are using all our strong improved tiles every turn.
I get more sooner without whipping. I also found the horse site sooner and get the horses hooked up sooner.

I also have more infrastructure complete at T65. Granaries, part Libraries, etc.

Similar to which post? I can put one together.
Something like this to compare data.
At T67,

Pop of, 5,5,3,2,1
Wheat farm + farm 1W, Cow pasture, 7*mine, 2*camp
4 worker
6 live warriors + 1 dead
1 Lighthouse
2 Libraries
Tech = AH > Masonry > Writing > Wheel > Math with a carryover to Pottery of about 1/2 the tech.


I think Archery is unnecessary right now.

Corinth had not grown to size 4 to need the additional farm, though. So I am not sure if finishing it earlier would actually help.
Because you didn't grow it as soon as you could have. If you grow Corinth sooner, it will get used.

The single biggest thing I like in my testing is the Horses are pastured by T65 and we can start building Chariots.

Again I will state also, at this point in time, I think the scout is more valuable busting fog at 0:hammers: invested since it will sure die if moves in the wild very far. Just a way to save 15:hammers: immediately really!
 
3 whips inside of 10 turns would leave 2 pop unhappy for 20 turns, that is some heavy whipping.

On the other hand, if the pop would be working a grass forest, better to whip them i guess and get the use of the hammers soonedr rather than later

not really had time to dig into this ts yet, sorry
 
@Ronnie, if you go straight settler-settler in Athens without whipping the first one where do you get the workboat from for Beaver island? Straight from Corinth after galley, using the overflow from chop?

Also, do you grow to 6 first or not?

I just did a run with my idea of settler from Corinth; fish island is settled actually a turn before horse; on T66 looking at pops of 562211, although without GLH whip.
 
Since we need to submit a T60 save, it seems a logical point to compare data.

My last test produced these results in summary,

Cities size = 4, 6, 3, 1

1 settler
3 workers
7 warriors
1 Lighthouse

Athens = 51/60 Granary, 13/28F
Sparta = 85/200 GLH, 7/32F
Corinth = 19/60 Granary + (7/XX), 25/26F
Thebes = 4/60 Granary, 16/22F

Tech through Masonry > Wheel > Pottery > Writing > started Math at 0%
39 Gold in the bank

autolog
Spoiler :

Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 46/500 (2160 BC) [01-Feb-2015 14:02:18]
Athens begins: Warrior (2 turns)
100% Research: 34 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -8 per turn, 15 in the bank

Turn 47/500 (2120 BC) [01-Feb-2015 14:02:49]
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 27 per turn, 7 in the bank

After End Turn:
Athens grows to size 6
Athens finishes: Warrior

Turn 48/500 (2080 BC) [01-Feb-2015 14:03:51]
Athens begins: Settler (6 turns)
100% Research: 35 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -8 per turn, 34 in the bank

Turn 49/500 (2040 BC) [01-Feb-2015 14:04:22]
A Pasture was built near Sparta
100% Research: 35 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -8 per turn, 26 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Masonry
Corinth grows to size 3

Turn 50/500 (2000 BC) [01-Feb-2015 14:09:04]
A Mine was built near Corinth
Research begun: The Wheel (2 Turns)
100% Research: 41 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -8 per turn, 18 in the bank

After End Turn:
Corinth finishes: Galley

Turn 51/500 (1960 BC) [01-Feb-2015 14:09:34]
100% Research: 41 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -8 per turn, 10 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: The Wheel
Sparta grows to size 5
Sparta finishes: Lighthouse
Corinth finishes: Warrior

Turn 52/500 (1920 BC) [01-Feb-2015 14:11:20]
Research begun: Pottery (2 Turns)
Sparta begins: The Great Lighthouse (25 turns)
Corinth begins: Warrior (3 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 33 per turn, 2 in the bank

Turn 54/500 (1840 BC) [01-Feb-2015 14:14:46]
A Mine was built near Sparta
Athens begins: Settler (6 turns)
Corinth begins: Warrior (3 turns)
Corinth begins: Galley (10 turns)
100% Research: 41 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -12 per turn, 26 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Pottery

Turn 55/500 (1800 BC) [01-Feb-2015 14:16:22]
Corinth begins: Granary (12 turns)
Research begun: Writing (4 Turns)
100% Research: 41 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -12 per turn, 14 in the bank

Turn 56/500 (1760 BC) [01-Feb-2015 14:18:00]
Thebes founded
Thebes begins: Granary (60 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 33 per turn, 2 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Athens
Athens finishes: Settler

Turn 57/500 (1720 BC) [01-Feb-2015 14:19:57]
A Camp was built near Thebes
Athens begins: Granary (9 turns)
100% Research: 52 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -15 per turn, 35 in the bank

After End Turn:
Sparta grows to size 6

Turn 58/500 (1680 BC) [01-Feb-2015 14:29:59]
100% Research: 50 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -15 per turn, 20 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Writing

Turn 59/500 (1640 BC) [01-Feb-2015 14:32:11]
A Mine was built near Sparta
Research begun: Mathematics (398 Turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 34 per turn, 5 in the bank

Turn 60/500 (1600 BC) [01-Feb-2015 14:35:06]
Diplomacy: Mehmed II (Ottomans) offers to trade Open Borders to R1 (Greece) for Open Borders
Diplomacy: R1 (Greece) accepts trade of Open Borders to Mehmed II (Ottomans) for Open Borders
A Farm was built near Corinth
 

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Definitely growing to size 6.

I am producing many more warriors for safety I think. This is the safe way until I know I can produce something else, worst case scenario I guess. ;) Could definitely comvert some of those hammers into a WB for Beaver or ???

No WB for Beaver yet, instead whipped 2nd settler into Granary and slowed growth in Athens by giving Wheat to Corinth and Crab to Beaver.

See last attached T60 save. Also for consistency a bit, T60 seems a good place to compare.
 
I will have to take a look if it helps, but whipping TGL is like a 50% penalty vs normal whipping right? Can we whip a settler or a worker with only 1 or two turns invested and get near-the-same end result?

We save 1 turn by whipping the 2 pop into TGL. It depends on how safe we think we are to get the wonder at this date.

We could try something to get some whip overflow without the wonder whip penalty, but taking the turn away to avoid the dry whip penalty makes it hard to come out ahead. Maybe a barracks, since it is a 50 hammer build so you are guaranteed the extra 10 hammers? Would have to try it.

3 whips inside of 10 turns would leave 2 pop unhappy for 20 turns, that is some heavy whipping.
Also given the food surplus already at Athens, perhaps we can forgo/delay the Granary in favour of a Library. Then a few turns later get the Granary in place?

At T65 Athens had 15 turns of whip anger remaining, so 5 turns of 2 unhappy plus 10 more turns of 1 unhappy. But the city will regrow so fast with the granary in place -- growth every 2 turns! It would hit the happy cap at size 6 on T71, with 1 whip unhappy for 9 more turns. At that point it could give away wheat (Corinth) and crabs (Thebes), or we could have it build workers/settlers until the penalty wears off.

@h1, some of my reasoning,

Especially early in the game, you want to keep your populations high because you get to work more tiles. That is why it is more efficient.

More tiles is good, but only if you have more improved tiles to work. Adding a grass forest at Athens at size 6 is not exactly adding a lot to the city -- net +1 hammer/turn is all. If we had more workers then we could add more improved tiles, but that would require foregoing something else.

You whip the 1st settler for max overflow but it is at least turn earlier than necessary to get on the boat.

The settler is idle for 1 turn. I did not see a way around that and still get max overflow, which produced the work boat for Thebes in time for it to work netted crabs as soon as it was founded.

I get more sooner without whipping. I also found the horse site sooner and get the horses hooked up sooner.

Well, my first set of tests founded the horse site 2 turns earlier than your test (4 turns earlier than the PPP plan). But it left no margin for unexpected barbs. How much risk do we want to take?

I also have more infrastructure complete at T65. Granaries, part Libraries, etc.

Something like this to compare data.
At T67,

Pop of, 5,5,3,2,1
Wheat farm + farm 1W, Cow pasture, 7*mine, 2*camp
4 worker
6 live warriors + 1 dead
1 Lighthouse
2 Libraries
Tech = AH > Masonry > Writing > Wheel > Math with a carryover to Pottery of about 1/2 the tech.

Well, I only played to T65. Let's see:

Pop of 3,4,2,2,1 (2 more turns would see 4,4,2,3,1)
Wheat farm + farm 1W, cow pasture, 8 * mine, 2 * camp, 3 netted crabs, 3/4 cottage, 2/4 horse pasture (2 more turns would finish the horses and cottage, plus 3 more worker turns around Athens)
3 worker
8 live warriors + 1 dead, 1 archer
1 lighthouse
1 granary (+1 already whipped, due T66, could back this out and have 2 more pop instead)
1/2 library
Tech = Masonry > Wheel > Archery > Pottery > Writing > cash banked for 4 turns of 100% research

The two turn difference distorts the comparison a bit, but I like having granaries in place -- I really dislike delaying them as long as we have. More military in my test, which if we don't need it looks like a waste but if we do need it we will be very very happy to have.

Where did you find hammers for a 4th worker? I would love to find a way to fit another worker into the plan. With Argos for horses we have 5 cities and only 3 workers. :( Even with Thebes not needing much worker help after the furs are camped, we need more and very soon.

I think Archery is unnecessary right now.

We can skip it if we don't need it. Depends on barb troubles.

Because you didn't grow it as soon as you could have. If you grow Corinth sooner, it will get used.

Growing Corinth sooner means taking the wheat from Athens, reducing growth there. Nothing is free.

Again I will state also, at this point in time, I think the scout is more valuable busting fog at 0:hammers: invested since it will sure die if moves in the wild very far. Just a way to save 15:hammers: immediately really!

If the scout stays to fog bust, then we give up on further exploration for a while. I don't disagree, really; we can wait and send a chariot or two to explore a bit later, with much greater chance of surviving.

@Ronnie, if you go straight settler-settler in Athens without whipping the first one where do you get the workboat from for Beaver island? Straight from Corinth after galley, using the overflow from chop?

Also, do you grow to 6 first or not?

I just did a run with my idea of settler from Corinth; fish island is settled actually a turn before horse; on T66 looking at pops of 562211, although without GLH whip.

More cities will be useful, and at least fish island does not need to be defended. More TR income, too. :) But we are really going to need to build granaries and some more workers, not to mention some military other than warriors. My T65 result is a bit behind in some ways, but the granaries have just been built and have not yet started to pay off. Faster pop growth with granaries would rapidly close the gap and then move ahead.
 
Where did you find hammers for a 4th worker? I would love to find a way to fit another worker into the plan. With Argos for horses we have 5 cities and only 3 workers. Even with Thebes not needing much worker help after the furs are camped, we need more and very soon.
You asked for an example, so I went back to a random spot in the thread and grabbed that data, it is not current.

From our current position, the T60 save above is pretty good imo.
 
Go to your auto saves folder and load up the T60 save and right down the stats maybe?
 
Since we need to submit a T60 save, it seems a logical point to compare data.

My last test produced these results in summary,

Cities size = 4, 6, 3, 1

1 settler
3 workers
7 warriors
1 Lighthouse

Athens = 51/60 Granary, 13/28F
Sparta = 85/200 GLH, 7/32F
Corinth = 19/60 Granary + (7/XX), 25/26F
Thebes = 4/60 Granary, 16/22F

Tech through Masonry > Wheel > Pottery > Writing > started Math at 0%
39 Gold in the bank

Went back and looked at my turn 60 save.

Pop: 3, 6, 3, 2

1 settler
3 workers
8 warriors (+1 dead)
1 archer
1 lighthouse
Crabs for Thebese are netted

Athens just starting granary (has 11 overflow), 16/26 food at +10 (so grows next turn)
Sparta same
Corinth just starting granary (has 4 overflow), 8/26 food
Thebes working on lighthouse (6/60), 2/24 food

Tech through Masonry > Wheel > Archery > Pottery > Writing (needs 2 more turns)

So we have the same total pop with slightly different distribution, and essentially the same tech if I had not spent the time/gold on Archery. I have 1 more warrior (or maybe 2 more if you had not lost 1 to barbs), an archer, and have netted the crabs for Thebes (not mentioned in your summary). You have 50-some hammers more in granaries at Athens and Corinth net of overflow hammers, and a bit more food in a couple boxes. (I am guessing Corinth has been using the wheat?)

Not huge differences overall. I went for more hammers into military (and maybe the WB for Thebes, needs to be clarified), you have some granaries partly built. You are a bit ahead on pop/stored food, likely represents about one additional pop whipped into military via overflow for me.

How confident are we that we can deal with whatever barbs show up? If we can do without the additional military units then having granaries earlier would be great. But if we end up with too few and have to emergency whip Sparta (delaying TGL) or Corinth (losing a gem mine for a few turns), it could be a significant setback.
 
Autolog and save?
 
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