SGOTM 22 - Anti-TSR

ok, how about this for gems area:

I still really like the idea of gifting a city so the AI will road to us.
we kill their economy.
we get trade rts with them.
we get +4 diplo which could have an important effect considering the -4's we're going to get.
we could farm workers.
we don't have to spawnbust

So I'd still like to give gemscity to an AI...preferably one that has gems! (and doesn't have pig)

or we could give it to Hannibal and then go north and immediately collect his workers.
etc.
 
So you plan to give away GemsCity and not take it back anytime soon? That's very different from what we've been talking about until now.

Can we know in time which AI (if any) has gems?

Won't Darius roading to us be good enough?

Why GemsCity and not, e.g., StoneCity?

How long will it take until all AI have settled a 4th city? Is a city gift on t70...74 realistic or do we need to settle it earlier?
 
Settling fish-1N can also have 3 farms, or +11fpt at pop6. Whippable city.
3Wines can have 5 farms, or +11fpt at pop9. Misses the ivory though. Whippable city.
If we make friends with the right AI, we might be able to finagle Gems City and Ivory City, get ivory and gems in trade. At least ivory for sure. Question is how to keep it safe from Barb Rage (TM)?

Gems is a veritable resource sink for suckers. Yes, the coins are nice, but what do we need coins for? We're going to turn hammers into research. Maintenance? Build come cottages, maybe.

The reason I like cows is that it's moving toward a target (presumably). Maybe we can figure this to get our warring running sooner.

If we beeline Literature for wonders, we could keep our eyes out for a juicy Heroic Epic city.
 
Pollina said:
So you plan to give away GemsCity and not take it back anytime soon? That's very different from what we've been talking about until now.

Can we know in time which AI (if any) has gems?

Won't Darius roading to us be good enough?

Why GemsCity and not, e.g., StoneCity?

How long will it take until all AI have settled a 4th city? Is a city gift on t70...74 realistic or do we need to settle it earlier?
Click to expand...

- right, not take it back any time soon. I like that our AI gifts are safe from barbs.

- We have to try to find gems before we settle and gift.

- Gemcity vs stonecity: gems is closer for worker farming. It could become a useful keeper city one day. It may not be practical to keep far away AI cities. We may just want this one since it more than pays for itself and can put out some boats or something.

- I think T75 is comfortable for one of the AI to still be at 3.
 
We're getting ahead of ourselves a bit. What do we need to know to continue?

wb or warrior in HC as first build? or something else?

LC said it might be ~70T to completely circle the map. Sounds bad, but that means ~35t and we should know what half the map looks like. It should give us a good idea of what BSP is up to. Chariot(s) can map the West side.

A wb has the ability to explore islands or even find a 2nd landmass.

or should the wb go for Fishcity?

But I don't care that much. A chariot could explore East, reveal the coast and get us TRs.
Building a warrior while pasturing makes some sense cus we can start a chariot ASAP.

I'm done for the day, but I'd like to make progress tomorrow...about 24 hours from now.
 
Data
1. Rome growth is the Critical Path. (Pollina's analysis)
2. Rome needs buildings, units and growth, so we use HC for settlers+workers as much as possible. (WT's idea)
3. Fish needs insta-wb, which HC builds, earliest T56, nets T67. (HC is coastal)
4. We want 2 exploring chariots asap.
5. Without Gems, we don't need 2nd worker or suicide warrior.
6. Cows needs border expansion and is no good until Monarchy.
7. 3S2W needs only 1 warrior choker if we settle Fish-1N.
8. 3S2W choker can move into place after we settle 3S2W but before we gift to Darius.
9. If HC builds settler/worker at pop2, then worker1 is free on T59.
10. Darius-3S2W does NOT have TRs with Rome without roads!?!?!
11. Fish-1N does not have TRs with Rome through Darius-3S2W without an additional 2 roads!?!?! Darius culture breaks the connection.
12. If Cows is settled ~T83, then it can work 3f and grow to pop2 by BW, whip monument immediately.

Rome MM
Spoiler :
attachment.php


Summary

Rome: slight variation on Pollina's MM to get Rome to pop6 on T61, settle 3S2W T62, with Rome building the warriors #5 and #6. Rome immediately builds Fish settler next, settling T69. Then builds library and grows to pop8 on T83.

HC: wkr1 pastures+roads horses then farms corn (no corn road), then connects road to 3S2W, then farms Rome-2E1N and Rome-2E (see MM), which are shared with Cows (pending scouting report), then farms Rome-1S and Rome2S1W, because these are least likely to get forest growth.

HC builds fish-wb and sends to Fish, then exploring chariot East, eventually builds Cows settler, completing in time to settle T83.

~~~~~~~~~~

This MM does not completely analyze HC. It leaves the plains mine unmined and the corn unroaded. It doesn't specify builds for a period of time. But it gives a decent plan that addresses the basic targets we have, if I'm not mistaken. It provides a baseline for comparing with some Gems City alternative.
 

Attachments

NOte, above spreadsheet has two minor mistakes on tiles worked. I'm correcting it now.

Okay, it should be good now.

.
 
One possible variant on the above might be to try to pump out two settlers for T83. First settle Gems, which we gift immediately (to Darius if no one else has only 3 cities), then Cows. But decisions on that would come after WT's next few turns.

A factor is when and how to mine the HC plains hill. Build another worker in HC before the Cows settler?
 
DariusGift

One way to steal techs more efficiently would be to settle DariusGift 3S1W of Rome. We'd lose a 3rd ring forest for Rome, but it would allow us to run a spread culture mission, which should instantly give us the 50% culture discount (until Darius generates some culture there himself). Only makes sense, if someone other than Darius builds Stonehenge, obviously.
 
WastinTime said:
We're getting ahead of ourselves a bit. What do we need to know to continue?

wb or warrior in HC as first build? or something else?

LC said it might be ~70T to completely circle the map. Sounds bad, but that means ~35t and we should know what half the map looks like. It should give us a good idea of what BSP is up to. Chariot(s) can map the West side.

A wb has the ability to explore islands or even find a 2nd landmass.

or should the wb go for Fishcity?

But I don't care that much. A chariot could explore East, reveal the coast and get us TRs.
Building a warrior while pasturing makes some sense cus we can start a chariot ASAP.

I'm done for the day, but I'd like to make progress tomorrow...about 24 hours from now.
Click to expand...
I like the idea of the exploring workboat, but I think netting the FC fish is a bigger priority (assuming that's where we put our 3rd city).
 
Pollina said:
LC, can you put a link to post #647 on the first page? :)
Click to expand...
Done. Thanks for reminding me to update, Pollina. Got way behind.

Folks, please let me know if there's any link you want, especially posts you don't want to have to search for again and again. Doesn't matter if no one else uses the links.
 
LowtherCastle said:
Folks, please let me know if there's any link you want, especially posts you don't want to have to search for again and again. Doesn't matter if no one else uses the links.
Click to expand...
Please put a link to ALL of my posts on the first page. All of them are pure gold... even this one!
 
Pollina said:
I like the idea of the exploring workboat, but I think netting the FC fish is a bigger priority (assuming that's where we put our 3rd city).
Click to expand...
Thinking out loud...

If an isolated AI started with Astro, he'll show up with galleons. If no Astro, then when all AIs get Sailing, won't we know whether or not a missing (offshore) AI has a galley route to our landmass, depending on whether he has TRs or not? In other words, we don't need the exploring wb.

Unless he's offshore and landlocked, thus can't defog the access tiles?
 
Pollina said:
DariusGift

One way to steal techs more efficiently would be to settle DariusGift 3S1W of Rome. We'd lose a 3rd ring forest for Rome, but it would allow us to run a spread culture mission, which should instantly give us the 50% culture discount (until Darius generates some culture there himself). Only makes sense, if someone other than Darius builds Stonehenge, obviously.
Click to expand...
The difference in EP cost would be negligible between the two locations, right? I say we put it in the most convenient place we can.

Don't you need some "seed" culture first to run the spread culture mission.

Edit: Oh, the proposed location has some of our culture already.
 
Mitchum said:
The difference in EP cost would be negligible between the two locations, right? I say we put it in the most convenient place we can.

Don't you need some "seed" culture first to run the spread culture mission.

Edit: Oh, the proposed location has some of our culture already.
Click to expand...
Massively edited for clarity, ty Pollina.

It has plot culture but not city culture. The spread culture mission gives 5% of the total existing city culture or a minimum of 1:culture: (edited: ty Pollina). Does not have to include any of our city culture though. (tested)

It also requires some of our existing plot culture, which gets erased when we gift him the city, so would have to wait at least one turn after gifting it. (I think that's how the code works.)

Finally, it requires that the cost of that 1:culture: be a minimum of 1ep. No deal if our ep discount brings it below 1 ep. :crazyeye:

The missions are cheap and if we keep doing them, eventually it will add up. That would be for later techs which are anyway more costly.

After our initial tech stealing bonanza this will give our spies something to do while we're waiting for his next big tech. If we only have one spy there for at least 1t, the success odds are 98% or better.

.
 
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