Remenber not to cancel research t5-6. The most secure is just to go AH from the start
SGOTM 22 - Fifth Element
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Remenber not to cancel research t5-6. The most secure is just to go AH from the start
unclethrill
Why am I up right now?
Looks good to me
zbgayumn
Emperor
Game Save
(oops, didn't pause, beware!)
I ended up stopping on T5 due to this:
Several things have become clear.
1. The hope for a worker steal was in vain
2. BSPollux put all those scouts down there so that all the civs would have early contact.
a. What is not obvious is why. With no tech trading, early contact doesn't mean much.
3. There is plenty of land for us to fogbust
4. There are definitely some lines of mountains, although no complete barriers found yet
Here's the expanded map. First, the SW corner, then the NE corner.
Finally, I did get demographics from T3. It's probably a moot point, since we've met all but one opponent.
(oops, didn't pause, beware!)
I ended up stopping on T5 due to this:
Several things have become clear.
1. The hope for a worker steal was in vain
2. BSPollux put all those scouts down there so that all the civs would have early contact.
a. What is not obvious is why. With no tech trading, early contact doesn't mean much.
3. There is plenty of land for us to fogbust
4. There are definitely some lines of mountains, although no complete barriers found yet
Here's the expanded map. First, the SW corner, then the NE corner.
Spoiler :
Finally, I did get demographics from T3. It's probably a moot point, since we've met all but one opponent.
Spoiler :
At least we would have research cheaper. With no trading and posiibly AIs hidden it helps a little.
I suppose we need 2 leaders with AHusbandry to make it cheaper. Persians favour it as first tech, unfortunately none of others ;/
I suppose we need 2 leaders with AHusbandry to make it cheaper. Persians favour it as first tech, unfortunately none of others ;/
zbgayumn
Emperor
I'll work on updating the test game tonight. I'm favoring Great Wall, but that won't really come up until next turnset. For now, it's just WB and worker.
To get Greatwall on time, we would have to postpone 2nd city and buildding GWall without BW is a nightmare. Some benefit from GW should be espionage points to steal some early techs, but if AIs are hidden, how to get those free techs?
I see our south completely free after blocking the tile 1SE from Rome (connect by road - so we can move back to Rome in case we settle new city). North doeasnt look so bad too - remember if barbs dot discover our borders, they will dont stubborny raid toward Rome. Junglehills can work in our favour if we fogbust the second row of forests/jungle. It is not immortal to beware of raging barbs so much
I see our south completely free after blocking the tile 1SE from Rome (connect by road - so we can move back to Rome in case we settle new city). North doeasnt look so bad too - remember if barbs dot discover our borders, they will dont stubborny raid toward Rome. Junglehills can work in our favour if we fogbust the second row of forests/jungle. It is not immortal to beware of raging barbs so much
zbgayumn
Emperor
I was thinking maybe we could get it right after the 2nd city. If we time BW to come right after we found it, then we can chop and use whip overflow. It might not be early enough to stop ALL barbs, but it would keep us from constantly having improvements pillaged or workers interrupted.
Noble Zarkon
Elite Quattromaster - Immortal (BTS)
Super Moderator
Hall of Fame Staff
GOTM Staff
Supporter
My guess - to make it clear there is an isolated AI, everything else is pushing us to conquest ...
As for the GW I'm even more in favour - especially if we have no near neigbours as that means a) there's more room to fogbust and b) we don't have to worry about losing spots. Chopping it out straight after city #2 is an interesting idea.
unclethrill
Why am I up right now?
I like the idea for the GW. Get a second city then chop wall. Dealing with barbs long term will be a real hinderance. Most teams will likely go this same route.
As far VC goes, I'm sure some team will find a way to win this with a conquest victory. These are all good players but I still think that a mining powered space race could be competitive. I still recall the conquest SGOTM that we were convinced required paratroopers because of the mountains surrounding the final city and what won it was a strategic border expansion that relocated the troops to the other side of the mountain range.
As far VC goes, I'm sure some team will find a way to win this with a conquest victory. These are all good players but I still think that a mining powered space race could be competitive. I still recall the conquest SGOTM that we were convinced required paratroopers because of the mountains surrounding the final city and what won it was a strategic border expansion that relocated the troops to the other side of the mountain range.
unclethrill
Why am I up right now?
Either way, with needing all those wonders we will have to go fairly deep into the tech tree. We can at least prioritize those that are on the way to space.
I dont understand those "GWall must". Either most of you are to scare of monarch raging barbs or I underestimate them. The problem with GW is espionage points and if we are really blocked from AIs there will be no possibility to utilize possible great spy - early techs not available as we are possibly semi isolated, as well I dont see a lot of chance of stealing late techs as we will be probably techleaders.
Wanna create ultimate test: Terra map leaving us alone in new world. Let us see how we can handle raging barbs
Wanna create ultimate test: Terra map leaving us alone in new world. Let us see how we can handle raging barbs
not exactly the same tiles, but quite similar start position.
zbgayumn
Emperor
I'm not necessarily saying it's a must, but if we have to build 7 Wonders, why not make that one of them?
I've done 3 tests that go out as far as T60 and I've lost Antium to barbs in two of them. Including the last one, where I lost my worker, and then Antium, and then all of my improvements. I'm trying to be objective, but right now I'm just pissed.
I've done 3 tests that go out as far as T60 and I've lost Antium to barbs in two of them. Including the last one, where I lost my worker, and then Antium, and then all of my improvements. I'm trying to be objective, but right now I'm just pissed.
Let us wait for more tests.
IMo we need wonders that are cheap and give some economical strenght and I favour GLH more mainly because GM points and is only slightly more expensive then GW. I like also Collosus, MoM is always a must, Parthenon, TajMahal. 2 left so probably Kremlin and HGardens to help growing
@zbg what tech path? Did you go archery? IMO in case of no horses and bromze this is our 5th tech.
As for GWall/GLH building, we can carry 100 hammers overflow via settler.
It basically allows us to build GW in 1 turn with 1 chop only having walls (WBoat)-> worker(granary?)--> settler prewhipped
IMo we need wonders that are cheap and give some economical strenght and I favour GLH more mainly because GM points and is only slightly more expensive then GW. I like also Collosus, MoM is always a must, Parthenon, TajMahal. 2 left so probably Kremlin and HGardens to help growing
@zbg what tech path? Did you go archery? IMO in case of no horses and bromze this is our 5th tech.
As for GWall/GLH building, we can carry 100 hammers overflow via settler.
It basically allows us to build GW in 1 turn with 1 chop only having walls (WBoat)-> worker(granary?)--> settler prewhipped
zbgayumn
Emperor
No, I haven't researched archery. On the last attempt, I went Masonry, but was late getting GWall because the worker died.
Noble Zarkon
Elite Quattromaster - Immortal (BTS)
Super Moderator
Hall of Fame Staff
GOTM Staff
Supporter
At lot depends how close our neighbours are and if we have horses, fast moving units can be a good answer. The challenge is getting the 2nd city in place and improved before either horses or the Great Wall are in place. If this was a HoF game I could just throw away I might take my chances but in a SGOTM I think we need a bit more caution.I've done 3 tests that go out as far as T60 and I've lost Antium to barbs in two of them. Including the last one, where I lost my worker, and then Antium, and then all of my improvements. I'm trying to be objective, but right now I'm just pissed.
zbgayumn
Emperor
Putting aside discussion of things to come around T40, here's a plan for the rest of the set. It really could be quite a boring set. Depends if I find anything interesting out in the fog.
Tech
AH T6-T12
Sailing T13-T18
Rome
Build WB T6-T17
Build Worker T18
Work Pig T6-T9
Grow to Size 2 T10
Work Pig, GFH T10-T17
Work Pig, Fish T18
Units
Warriors - Explore outward up to T15
Water - Head SE, check out mountain walls
Wind - Head E, start returning to fogbust T16
Earth - Head NE, start returning to fogbust T16
Fire - Head W, start returning to fogbust T16
*If there's still a promising direction for exploration by T15, I would be in favor of keeping one warrior moving outward and building a new one to make 4 in the capital at the time of the 2nd city founding.
WB - move to Fish T17, Net T18
Other
Who should we put EP's on? Darius?
It might not even matter, but maybe there are some of them we can reach.
Stopping Conditions
Horses are revealed
Anything really odd happens
PPP v1.2
T6-T18
Tech
AH T6-T12
Sailing T13-T18
Rome
Build WB T6-T17
Build Worker T18
Work Pig T6-T9
Grow to Size 2 T10
Work Pig, GFH T10-T17
Work Pig, Fish T18
Units
Warriors - Explore outward up to T15
Water - Head SE, check out mountain walls
Wind - Head E, start returning to fogbust T16
Earth - Head NE, start returning to fogbust T16
Fire - Head W, start returning to fogbust T16
*If there's still a promising direction for exploration by T15, I would be in favor of keeping one warrior moving outward and building a new one to make 4 in the capital at the time of the 2nd city founding.
WB - move to Fish T17, Net T18
Other
Who should we put EP's on? Darius?
It might not even matter, but maybe there are some of them we can reach.
Stopping Conditions
Horses are revealed
Anything really odd happens
Some maths:
At the time of growing we have 9/30. So this is 7 turns of pigs+2Htile.
But we can send WB 2 turns earlier, what is 2 turns earlier nets and 2 turns earlier worker construction.
In my test I did 2 times foresthill, what gave me 4 overflow to worker.
When we wil be recruiting worker we will get 1 turn of 5 hammers (3H + 2 food: pigs + foresthill) and a bunch of turns with fish improved of 7hammers (1 hammer from city tile + 6 food). 55/7= 7 and 6 hammers left. Unfortunately we are unable to get so much from overflow, so our worker construction will take the minimum 9 turns.
It means we should aim for earliest workboat (5 turns after growing), but not necessairy emphasise production all the time. Of course the more overflow we carry from worker the better, because we can put it directly to lighthouse using 100% multiplier
At the moment of growing we have 0/24 food and 9/30 hammers
Proposed PPP gives fish improved t18, WB ready t17.
At turn 17 it would have: 0H overflow from workboat, 14/24 food and +7 commerce and will give a worker t26 and 1H overflow
Possibilities to get workboat turn15:
A
5 turns of double forest hill: WB ready t15, 4H overflow, 0/24 food, +0 commerce.
For comparison t17 it would be (assuming we go straight worker): 0/24 food, +4 commerce
Worker t24, 5 H overflow
B
4 turns of double forest hill, 1 turn of foresthill+pig: 2H overflow, 2/24 food, +1 commerce
At t17 it would be +5 commerce
worker t24, 3H overflow
C
3 turns of double forest hill, 2 turns of foresthill+pig: 0 overflow, 4/24 food, +2 commerce
Art t17 it would raise to +6 commerce
worker t24, 1H overflow
Dont worry about food missing, 2 turns earlier worker = +12 food.
So in fact this is changing PPP
A
-2 food, +4 hammers, -3 commerce and 2t earlier worker
B
0 food, +2 hammers -2 commerce and 2t earlier worker
C
+2 food 0 hammers -1 commerce and 2t earlier worker
As for reseacrh:
PPP gives 1 turn earlier sailing BUT in all t15 workboat variants sailing will be on time, just at the turn worker is ready. That means we can put overflow directly into lighthouse. That means:
A
10/60 LH because of overflow, +2 from city tile, = 12/60
B
6/60 LH because of overflow, +2 from city tile, = 8/60
C
2/60 LH because of overflow, +2 from city tile, = 4/60
I am too lazy to do the same with 6turn workboat now, but because we ar enot able to get more than 4 overflow from workboat, it will also delay worker to t25
-----------
Choose your favourite
At the time of growing we have 9/30. So this is 7 turns of pigs+2Htile.
But we can send WB 2 turns earlier, what is 2 turns earlier nets and 2 turns earlier worker construction.
In my test I did 2 times foresthill, what gave me 4 overflow to worker.
When we wil be recruiting worker we will get 1 turn of 5 hammers (3H + 2 food: pigs + foresthill) and a bunch of turns with fish improved of 7hammers (1 hammer from city tile + 6 food). 55/7= 7 and 6 hammers left. Unfortunately we are unable to get so much from overflow, so our worker construction will take the minimum 9 turns.
It means we should aim for earliest workboat (5 turns after growing), but not necessairy emphasise production all the time. Of course the more overflow we carry from worker the better, because we can put it directly to lighthouse using 100% multiplier
At the moment of growing we have 0/24 food and 9/30 hammers
Proposed PPP gives fish improved t18, WB ready t17.
At turn 17 it would have: 0H overflow from workboat, 14/24 food and +7 commerce and will give a worker t26 and 1H overflow
Possibilities to get workboat turn15:
A
5 turns of double forest hill: WB ready t15, 4H overflow, 0/24 food, +0 commerce.
For comparison t17 it would be (assuming we go straight worker): 0/24 food, +4 commerce
Worker t24, 5 H overflow
B
4 turns of double forest hill, 1 turn of foresthill+pig: 2H overflow, 2/24 food, +1 commerce
At t17 it would be +5 commerce
worker t24, 3H overflow
C
3 turns of double forest hill, 2 turns of foresthill+pig: 0 overflow, 4/24 food, +2 commerce
Art t17 it would raise to +6 commerce
worker t24, 1H overflow
Dont worry about food missing, 2 turns earlier worker = +12 food.
So in fact this is changing PPP
A
-2 food, +4 hammers, -3 commerce and 2t earlier worker
B
0 food, +2 hammers -2 commerce and 2t earlier worker
C
+2 food 0 hammers -1 commerce and 2t earlier worker
As for reseacrh:
PPP gives 1 turn earlier sailing BUT in all t15 workboat variants sailing will be on time, just at the turn worker is ready. That means we can put overflow directly into lighthouse. That means:
A
10/60 LH because of overflow, +2 from city tile, = 12/60
B
6/60 LH because of overflow, +2 from city tile, = 8/60
C
2/60 LH because of overflow, +2 from city tile, = 4/60
I am too lazy to do the same with 6turn workboat now, but because we ar enot able to get more than 4 overflow from workboat, it will also delay worker to t25
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Choose your favourite
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