Erm, I don't know if you read PR threads, but I'm directionally challenged. It seems like I always mess something directionally up.
And Elite, yes I was snipping. I'll be sure to post the whole screen next time.
I think that Paul, George, and John should continue exploring. Unless we are planning on them being in Rome when we settle another city, but that could be a while if the GW is going to be our 2nd building. I would like to find the other AIs.
I do agree that the fish site is the best. I wouldn't mind exploring around the double stone sight for some food other than the bananas. That's a tempting spot to me.
The oracle would just be a bonus imo. Once we get the 2nd city and its still available, I wouldn't be opposed to going for it.
Don't remember exact mechanics now, but at that date animals should start randomly disappear and barbs randomly appear. Animals are of course also spawnbusting until they disappear. There's also the limit of barb units on the landmass that prevents barbs from spawning until some animal is gone.
25 was the number on the difficulty level spreadsheet, didn't check actual xml.
If a barb unit arrives in 2-3 turns then yes we are game over.
Barb behaviour On the table it suggests turn 25 for animals but we know they arrived much sooner on our game. We know on test game the Ai had help. The reality is we may already be in trouble if they arrive any turn soon.
T39 2440BC. 4 barbs units archers/warriors have appeared on world builder. I am about 4 turns off great wall. My worker has run out of things to do unless we have TW, agriculture or BW. A downside to delaying BW. A few farms might of been useful?
My gut is no barb warrior or archers will arrive in next 20 turns. I think we are safe. It would take a huge change for them to arrive 10-20 turns sooner on Monarchy. I just don't think our Ai will be that advanced here.
Oh tried building second settler after first. Walked him around mountain maze to the stone. I was able to settle on stone 1440bc at size 6 with 6 warriors and 3 buildings. I would need a second worker. Stone showed up in Rome as i had sailing. So Mids is not that far fetched. We just build the settler sooner to give him time to reach the spot. Would need a warrior fog busting down south. With a follow up unit to secure the area.
Let's not hit the disaster button yet. I would be interested in thoughts on Oracle approach too. I think we can be 100% on mids. Although I think all Ai will go Sh before Oracle. On my latest test game 1440bc amd Aztecs are about 6-7 turns off it. SH went 1840bc.
We definately need a strategy discussion here. Oracle for monarchy. Or mids for HR. Mix of Gspy and GE sounds sweet. GP for a religion is not bad either. Hmmm.
Thanks for that great link Gumbolt! So there are 2 factors, after T25 and average number of cities must be at least 1.5. So in this case, as soon as the fourth AI gets a 2nd city up, they will start coming. Now I'm glad BSP didn't give them deity starting units...
Can we have some more input on strategy here short/ long term.
Options:
We all accept TGW.
Attack Ai beeline IW - I think we all agree we may well be isolated. My gut is no!
Oracle - Do the Ai have marble? Dates for SH? Testing has been mixed on Oracle dates. If they have Marble they may well go for it. We know 1 Ai has decent production. For marble they will still need masonry. Mansa could be a likely contender if he starts with mining.
Build Mid - We have stone below. With sailing and settling on stone it makes mids possible using a 3rd city pre BW. (Tech BW to almost 1 turn of completion.) Would involve a 10-11 turn journey for settler. So build 2nd settler to time for 11 turn journey.
Try for Mids and Oracle? Seems unlikely.
Build galleys and try something military? Need to find an Ai first. Workboat exploration.
Use of capital - If we go mids we could farm and mine. Grow to size 10-12 and expand more. Expand by capturing? A workboat exploring might find a juicy island city. We go go cottage route. Would still need 1-2 farms to help growth. The size of Rome does define our empire.
Tech route. If we go Oracle PH becomes important. For mids sailing would be important. Short term Masonry, myst?, TW or sailing could be useful. Myst is useful as a monument is a quick 3rd building. Otherwise pottery. Ideally we want alphabet if we want to steal techs asap. It's still possible to grab Oracle and try for mids. Hmmm. The worry would be if we failed on oracle.
I grabbed the link from Shulecs old team. Thank him.
On live game none of the Ai have 2 cities. Highest food yield is 18. Average of 10. Probably Mecca. Highest production is 8. Average of 5. With marble or stone 8 quickly turns to 16. So that could be a pretty quick Wonder. We can't assume the food and production high are the same Ai. 18 food could build a settler pretty quickly. Would take 3-4 Ai to have 2 cities for barb warriors and archers.
More testing on barbs. I gave some, then gradually more Ai 2 cities. By about 2800bc AI had warrior and archer barbs. So I would say the more Ai that have 2 cities the more likely barb invading units are likely to appear. It's unclear what if any influence the date had on this. I had to give all the Ai 2 cities to get the barbs.
They key thing for me is that unless these Ai had super starts they are unlikely on their own to all reach 2 cities by 2500bc. Not sure if city sizes has any impact on this. Interesting testing. On plus side this game we can see exactly how many cities each AI has. I suspect the reason for this is the barbs?
I like Mids idea a lot more then Oracle as i mentioned somewhere wth mids we can just farm in capitol and go for GPs eco, Mids are priceless.
Question is can we escort our settler there ? I meen there will be a lot of barbs ...
I like Mids idea a lot more then Oracle as i mentioned somewhere wth mids we can just farm in capitol and go for GPs eco, Mids are priceless.
Question is can we escort our settler there ? I meen there will be a lot of barbs ...
If we have 5 warriors I would predict we can spare one down south to fog bust. We will get a border pop soon after second city. The barbs on Monarchy are not as bad as higher levels. As stated before we can prepare the settler 10-15 turns before we need it. We may need 1-2 more warriors to be safe. hmmm.
If this is the case what is our tech order?? We would want sailing at some point. We would need a 3rd building too. Granary or monument. Monument seems best. Then a question of do we want TW to speed up the settler?
In terms of plan my aim would be to try and return all warriors now to help fog bust. Some will still need to heal. I really don't want to play on without some proper feedback.
So current pop and tech points for AI (ancient tech=1 tech point, classical tech=2 tech points and so on):
Saladin - pop 5 and 8 tech points
Gilgamesh - pop 2 and 6 tech points
Zara - pop 1 and 7 tech points
Darius - pop 3 and 7 tech points, or pop 4 and 6 tech points
Hannibal - pop 2 and 7 tech points
Brennus - pop 3 and 8 tech points, or pop 4 and 7 tech points
Saladin at pop 5 is crazy, must have started with preimproved tiles and probably also a worker as he hasn't been building one. Zara still at pop 1 probably means he is building a settler. Gilgamesh and Hannibal still at pop 2 might mean the same thing. Might also be that one or more of them are working only hammer tiles to build wonder... Cross-referencing this with the data in demographics could give more insight into this.
Most AI have learned 2 new ancient techs since start of game, saladin has learned 3 (or one ancient+one classical). Brennus also might have learned 3 techs already. Actually, this is very likely. They were first to reach the religions, the other AI were also likely to put beakers into those before switching to something else when they lost the religion. [Edit: on second thought, it's actually very unlikely that Brennus would have researched 3 techs in 7 turns, so more likely he has 4 pop and 7 tech points.]
Next turn (or the turn after that, not sure exactly how the delay works) score for land should show up and we can tell how many land tiles each AI has in the first ring. Soon after that score for second ring will also be included.
This explains a lot real contender on this map to Oracle is Saladin so probably map maker give him a bit adv so he can just go for it, not that anyone of us though that we can orcale Monarchy , at this point i think he has Mansonry and going for Mono or he will Oracle Mono .
Anyway with this data is way to risky go for PH.
If we decide to choose Mids path reserching Writing is not bad move if we allrdy have sailing maybe we will manage to find ai and have that would be adv, mistycyzm ealier and monument i dont think that we need grenary at this point we just dont have enough .
What iam thinking about is something like writing, mistycyzm, sailing, BW, whip Lib maybe ?
Iam not sure about order becouse dont know how long GW, and settler takes, well i think i try it in test.
If we have 5 warriors I would predict we can spare one down south to fog bust. We will get a border pop soon after second city. The barbs on Monarchy are not as bad as higher levels. As stated before we can prepare the settler 10-15 turns before we need it. We may need 1-2 more warriors to be safe. hmmm.
If this is the case what is our tech order?? We would want sailing at some point. We would need a 3rd building too. Granary or monument. Monument seems best. Then a question of do we want TW to speed up the settler?
In terms of plan my aim would be to try and return all warriors now to help fog bust. Some will still need to heal. I really don't want to play on without some proper feedback.
Edit.
And i have request to all of us just try to argument somehow your idea becouse without arguments its hard to debate even looks cute, is better then nothing
All 6 into the warrior are lost. It costs only one turn into the GW. It allows for 4 fogbusters. It prevent unhappiness at Pop5 without pulling a fogbuster back. It allows for a 25% fortify bonus for any barbs that slip through.
On the flip side, going GW first could save us from getting a mine pillaged by getting built one turn sooner. If we do not build the warrior first, we are better off working 21 tile instead of a forest hill.
As for the wheel first, it prevents idle worker turns, gets us to settle sites quicker, established trade routes, and allows chariots. I also don't agree that a granary in Rome is not a good build. Because of the low food, it is even more important. I call BS on anyone now that says we will not ship in Rome...and I will call you out again when we do it.
Mysticism is a great alternative, but I don't believe the Oracle is truly worth so much less since we cannot trade the free tech for 4-5 other techs. Of course, you could argue that since we can't trade for techs, it is more valuable. I favor the former viewpoint.
On the test game, we could get the GW on T41 without building a warrior, T42 when building the warrior. I see in the real game we may be teching a turn faster, this will likely not impact the finish date since we are currently working so few hammers
Yes I wondered about the warrior hammers if we didn't intend to build the warrior. Loss of 1 turn. It's going to be at least 14 turns to get John back. He will need at least 3 turns healing. I would not risk returning him by the plains. He should never of been left where he is.
TW is not a problem. We will soon run out of worker options. Agriculture also solves this. Trade routes will help. Main advantage of myst was the cheap 3rd building. We need a 3rd building before stone city.
TW - roads/chariots. If we were going to build the horse city. Are we??
Myst - Mainly for monument.
Agriculture - farms for worker after the mine.
Sailing - A must for stone.
BW - Again I would complete this after 3rd which is some time off.
The next thing to test is timing of growth vs hammers for GW.
On my test game using 2f1c vs 1f2h leads to growth in 4 turns either way. Not checked the impact at size 3.
Then question of what to do at size 3. growth over hammers. Saves 1 turn growth but you lose 8 hammers. On test game I was 1 hammer short of building TGW a turn earlier. So running farms too much affects TGW end date.
Ultimately once the mine is up and running we want to work that tile. This turn ealier tech suggests someone may already have masonry. Hmmmm.
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Erm, I don't know if you read PR threads, but I'm directionally challenged. It seems like I always mess something directionally up. 
as i mentioned somewhere wth mids we can just farm in capitol and go for GPs eco, Mids are priceless.
, at this point i think he has Mansonry and going for Mono or he will Oracle Mono 
that would be adv, mistycyzm ealier and monument i dont think that we need grenary at this point we just dont have enough 
into the warrior are lost. It costs only one turn into the GW. It allows for 4 fogbusters. It prevent unhappiness at Pop5 without pulling a fogbuster back. It allows for a 25% fortify bonus for any barbs that slip through.
1
tile instead of a forest hill.
