SGOTM 22 - TTfkapr

[BSPollux]

Hey JJ, enjoy the game!
Always nice to have more players.

And post many screenshots for me and the other lurkers

 

[justjohn]

The plan was to gift the stone city away after mids. Mainly because we consider the stone city to be a junk city. This means we would need an AI still to be on 3 cities. AI with 3 cities will accept any city on the map. Otherwise things get complicated on gifting. It is a risk. Otherwise the city has to be 8-9 tiles from the AI borders.

I was only wondering if an AI would accept a city on a different landmass even if it has less than 4 cities.

I would not gift away fish city. Once you mine the hills nearby this is a great production city. You don't give away your prize cow at a local fair. You give away the one on it's last legs which is diseased.

I did not suggest gifting fish city away, not at all. It was just a way to confirm it is possible to gift such a city at this point (since I was unsure about gifting cities if the AI was on a different landmass).

 

[elitetroops]

An AI will always accept a city gift anywhere on the map as long as they have 3 or less cities.

One thought I've had quite a while, just tested it and it works... in theory. For what we know now, we might need astro, or even paratroopers to reach some of the AI. Seems possible as the requirement is conquest or space. However, if we gift this city to a far away AI and this AI expands more in our part of the world, then we can gift him a ton of warriors, declare war, kill the warriors, raze all but one of his cities here (last city must be threatened) and get a city from the other side of the world in a peace deal. I tested this and managed to get a city I had never seen, which was on another continent together with the capital of the AI. However, it required a ton of war success, killed 40 warriors and razed 6 cities without losses... But I'm not sure what else factors in. I think length of war might be a factor, probably power rating and other stuff. Possibly land and population (i my test I had 2 cities and the AI had 4 when I got the far away city). If we did understand this part of the code, we could figure out if this could be done somehow.

Probably not worth it anyway, getting a city blind, which might be in the middle of the tundra, doesn't necessarily speed up conquest of another continent very much. Except maybe if AI is behind mountain range... Just throwing out whatever ideas I come up with. In any case, first get those exploring workboats out and hopefully we can reach the AI in easier ways.

 

[Gumbolt]

I was only wondering if an AI would accept a city on a different landmass even if it has less than 4 cities.

I did not suggest gifting fish city away, not at all. It was just a way to confirm it is possible to gift such a city at this point (since I was unsure about gifting cities if the AI was on a different landmass).

I must admit you had me worried. If you look at my test game you can see it is more than possible to gift the city without an nearby AI.

We would welcome your thoughts once you get settled in. Shulec is unable to play for another 24 hours or so. Hopefully he will have a plan up tomorrow. Were pretty relaxed here play wise so far.

Edit. We have met all the AI. Maps will reveal all. That or our workboats first. This is an adapted Pangea. We have already seen a quarter of the land or so. The Ai are squished up in the rest of it. I really doubt BSP will create too much land here. He has not really been isolating the AI on his previous games.

 

[shulec]

OK. Sorry for the delay. I started my first test, and I didn't realize that it was the same that Gumbolt did. I got the the Pyramids a turn earlier.

I have confusion on when we discuss dates for a build to be finished. Below is a photo from my test:

Spoiler :

I would report this as finishing the Mids on T81, 850BC. The event log reports it as built on 875BC. For uniformity and effective communication, how do you report this.

Anyway, here are the results from my test. They are similar to Gumbolt's.

If we are going to gift away Stone city, I don't think there is any doubt that this is better than going for BW and chopping with mathematics. If we are going to keep Stone City, I don't think this is better. We are delaying the Mids several turns to gift away Stone City.

 

[Gumbolt]

This all assumes we can gift away stone. The Ai on test game are much quicker. I do prefer delaying BW now we have decided to delay archery. If we can build horse city then we have no need for archery.

I did very little micro on my test save. I just wanted to do something different as I was concerned gifting stone was not working. Getting mids sooner may help with gifting stone city.

Are we 100% on tech order?? 0% science for 2-3 turns and ensure you avoid BW.

Overall I think your set should complete mids. Small gamble on stone gift but all part of the fun.

 

[shulec]

Here is my micro for the turnset.
Give it a try and make suggestions.
Decide if you think keeping Stone City is better.
Note agriculture before math.

T60
0% Sailing
Warrior 2 1N1W
Worker 1 Road

T61
George 1N1W
Warrior 2 2N2W
Warrior (Stone) Fortify, Heal
Worker 1 Road
0% Sailing

T62
George 2N2W to Antium as Garrison
Worker 1 – 1N2W Cottage
Warrior – fortify, Heal
Warrior 2 – 1N to Rome
100% Sailing
Start new warrior in Rome
Switch from cottage to GforestedHill in Rome


T63 (1480 BC)
George 2N1E into Rome
Worker 1 – 2N1W Cottage
Warrior – fortify, Heal
Warrior 2 – fortify
Found Cumae
Cumae starts workboat, work forested tundra
Max hammers in Rome (no pig), take mine from Antium
Antium works cottage
Agriculture 100%

T64
Cumae warrior head east to fog bust once healed. (We need to protect the city gift from barbs).


T65
Worker 1W to road.
Work forested hill, and forested grassland in Antium
Rome takes back mine

T66


T67
Warrior in Antium
Mathematics 0%
Granary (or other build)
Antium works two cottages.
Worker to 1S of Rome

T68 1280 BC
Worker 1E, road

T69
Warrior leaves Rome, move SE to fogbust Horse site

T70 1200 BC
Max Hammers in Cumae (no mine)– Start Settler
Swap GHF for Pigs in Rome
Worker 1N1E, road

T71
Mathematics 100%

T72
Worker 2S

T74


T75
Moai in Cumae
Work coast tile in Cumae
Worker 1E

T76
Worker road

T78
Worker 1S1E


T79
Antium warrior to Rome, (or Horse City fogbusting warrior to Rome on T80 if no risk.)
Antium switch to worker
Settler to 3E if Antium

T80
Settler 4E

T81
Gift away Stone city
Settle Horse city
Worker farm Corn
No anarchy until next turn to get slavery and representation.
BW 100%

 

[justjohn]

I'm away on a conference, but to me avoiding BW and gifting stone city sounds like the better plan from your comments. I need more time if I am to play through it and confirm it for myself, but that shouldn't be necessary considering your work here already. But if you havn't played your turns before Saturday, I will do the playtest then for myself.

 

[Gumbolt]

Let me do a run through quickly. I am not the best person to suggest micro changes. Looks like you teched agriculture. Wise.

I think key stopping points would be.
1. If barb city on horse spot.
2. If all Ai suddenly have 4 cities.
3. If another Ai builds the mids.

Edit. On live game only 2 Ai have 2 cities still. Perhaps we will be safe here.

To get 6 warriors in rome you are building 2 warriors in Rome? If I read this right. Probably needed anyway.

For some reason I was 1 food short of S6 on your test game when I needed to settle Cumae. Hmmm.Maybe got something wrong. Not helpe by warriors not being name on test game.

Distracted by a phone call as well.

 

[shulec]

I am trying to find the details on the trojan city.
-40% EP - Trojan is running a different state religion than the one we have a holy city for and are running.
-50% EP - Stationary spy
-20% EP - Trade route with Trojan city (this is not clear how it is determined - needs research)
+16% EP - Distance of Trojan/Stone City from Rome
-??% EP - for Espoinage point spending (needs work to calculate)
-??% EP - Culture (needs work, not likely useful - related to ratios of culture between us and AI in Trojan.)

Trade route has to show up in one of our cities. So we need trade route access to the Capitol and then one of our secondary cities will have to prioritize a TR with Trojan City.

Espionage spending has to do with a ratio of our spending vs. AI spending and also our spending on on target vs. other AI.

Culture is associated with the ratio of our culture in city vs total culture.

 

[elitetroops]

I'm away still today, can't test anything until tomorrow. But if I read this correct it's mids+3rd city 850BC, right? Sounds good to me.

How many exploring workboats do you have? I see one.

What's the point with moai in cumae?

 

[shulec]

I'm away still today, can't test anything until tomorrow. But if I read this correct it's mids+3rd city 850BC, right? Sounds good to me.

How many exploring workboats do you have? I see one.

What's the point with moai in cumae?

There is a good chance that city three will be delayed a few turns. This is due to having to fog bust a path to the settle site. We may lose a warrior trying to get the settler there, and may lose worker turns dodging barbs.

Two workboats. One from Antium, one from Stone City.

Moai is the only thing that may be useful as our last build in Stone. We won't generate enough hammers before we give it away to build anything. We may or may not get fail gold after we give away the city.

 

[shulec]

When I actually play, I will stop before giving away Trojan City, so we can decide who to give it to.

I have to check, but I think there were some coast tile south of us that should be ocean. Could this be a hidden path? That would be foul.

 

[elitetroops]

Wouldn't be the first time BSP makes a hidden path with coast tiles. Worth checking out.

 

[Gumbolt]

Can we test what happens when you gift away city with hammers in a wonder??? I thought you only got fail gold if it was actually built???

I think the religion in stone city is not going to happen before we can gift it away. Unless we find another Ai cultural border soon.

On test did you get capital at S6 in time for cumae?? I will test this again after food.

I am still confused by your warrior movement Shulec. Warrior 2 starts where?? I think you may mean John who starts 2E1S of Antium. Have you compared test save to live game?? I think one of Elites test game had an extra warrior?

Is the food the same?? For now I will ignore the warriors and focus on city builds.

 

[yyeah]

Sry i was a bit off lastdays, dont have too much time to do test, overall plan looks good to me too, so green here, go for it Shulec

 

[Gumbolt]

Tried test game again. If you switch to GFH on T62 you don't reach S6 on T63. So you can't settle Cumae on T63.

We start with 21F on T60. 24F on T61. 27F on T62. 29 on T63. 1 short of size 6. So delays mids start by 1 turn.

When does Rome take back pigs?? It will shrink after 4 turns.

My warrior in Antium finishes T70 but I have to have 5HPT to make this work.

Worth doing another test run to check over the above before you play. Especially micro in Rome on T62.

 

[shulec]

Tried test game again. If you switch to GFH on T62 you don't reach S6 on T63. So you can't settle Cumae on T63.

We start with 21F on T60. 24F on T61. 27F on T62. 29 on T63. 1 short of size 6. So delays mids start by 1 turn.

When does Rome take back pigs?? It will shrink after 4 turns.

My warrior in Antium finishes T70 but I have to have 5HPT to make this work.

Worth doing another test run to check over the above before you play. Especially micro in Rome on T62.

I forgot about being at pop 6. I will rework.

 

[Gumbolt]

For loss of 1h you could work forest grassland for S6. Not sure how badly this affect mids. We have to be very careful on rules with new cities. I would certainly post save when new cities are settled or take pictures.

 

[Gumbolt]

Anyone still out there? I assume Shulec is about. A slow team thread is never a good thing.

I think we have an overall plan but we just need to play it out ensuring we meet the game rules.