SGOTM 22 - TTfkapr

Gumbolt · Oct 8, 2015

@ Yyeah good spot. Over to ET.

Nicely played with the barbs. To only have lost 1 warrior so far was not bad really.

Those demo screens are scary. GNP double ours. Production 38 vs our 21. Someone could easily build mids here. Should we put 1-2 hammers into it in fish??

elitetroops · Oct 8, 2015

Updated testgame.

We are safe. No barbs can spawn and reach our units before city is settled T63.

Well played yyeah! :goodjob:

We did pretty well, considering we lost only one warrior. Could have been much worse if we had faced archers.

I can take over from here. But not sure if I have time to play or test much tomorrow. But always good with a break to give everyone a chance to test options. I'd be interested in seeing some tests involving failgold as well, in case that would be worth it.

Gumbolt · Oct 8, 2015

Looking at anti -TSR graph. I guessed GW around same date as us. Seems like securing stone would of been their next stop. Then graph stop before they would of completed mids from our testing dates. Makes me wonder did the Ai beat them to mids?? Or did they stop for something else? Assuming they went for mids.

In terms of techs. We will need archery sooner than later. Otherwise we will need copper for axes. I guess BW will be key to our next techs. We would then still need a mine.

Just noticed the fish near the deer site.

A days break tomorrow is fine. We are not far behind the leading teams date wise.

Have a good night or evening all.

shulec · Oct 9, 2015

Good job guys!

Here are things I see in the game:
Saladin brags about chariots and swords. He has iron and horses.
Brennus will consider war against three AI. He brags about Axes. He has copper.
Darius brags about Axes. He has copper. No brags of Immortals.
Gilgamesh brags about Vultures. He has copper.
Hannibal brags about chariots. He has horses.
Zara doesn't brag. Is this because he is pleased with us?

General comments:
The AI are kicking ASS! Their land must be juicy!!!
Darius is researching CoL already. Initially I thought alphabet was needed, but he needs Poly/Med + PH, so I guess it is not that impressive.
We have OB with everybody and Brennus and Saladin hate each other.

Spoiler :

Perhaps I am incorrect, but I would classify a demand to cancel trade relations as a "demand for tribute". Therefore, we have a low risk of Saladin or Brennus demanding we cancel deals (4/10 and 1/10 respectively).

Trojan Horse City:
We can steal techs for a very low EP if we stack the bonuses.
What we need:
Holy City, with that religion in Trojan City, with the AI running a different religion.
Bonus if Trojan is far from AIs capitol
Bonus if we have trade routes with AI
Our culture in Trojan city

Usually I would go for Confucianism for the Trojan Horse city. That will not happen due to Darius going after CoL.
We can bulb Philosophy. This make the Trojan Horse much less attractive. However, if our first GP is a GSpy, it will be a huge waste if we don't do a Trojan Horse.

Give this idea a chance and tell why its not a good idea: gift away Stone City for the Trojan Horse after we build the Mids and a monument in Stone City.
Stone City is a real turd of a city. Since we are limited with cities, lets use it and get rid of it. We don't need stone after the Mids. All the prospective world wonders we want use Marble. The only WW we would want this for would be Hanging Gardens.

All AI have BW, barb axes will start showing up now or when we get BW.

yyeah · Oct 9, 2015

Trojan Horse is great idea, another thing with it is if we bulid trojan horse for our 1st target, after razeing/conquering, all his cites we can steal a lot of gold from it ( witch wont appear in trade screen). This is what i learned from g137

. They actually have a tones of gold if they are left on 1 small city.
Need a think about giving stone site 1st though is that we could use stone maybe for Notre Dame.

elitetroops · Oct 9, 2015

I was thinking about the gifting away Stone city idea yesterday. It's not ideal, but an option worth considering. Do you think we have time to wait until after monument is built? How does that culture part work, is it enough that we get one culture from monument, then we get the bonus?

If we decide to use it as trojan, it should build our second exploring workboat instead of LH. WB would be out about the same time as WB from Fish. Fish can build something else instead.

But I also think there is a risk we still will want to build more stone wonders. Marble wonders would be better, but if we can't find marble, then building 5 wonders without bonus resource will get very expensive. If we can wait for monument to gift it, then it could maybe be possible to finish HG in cap before that.

yyeah · Oct 9, 2015

Allright like i mentioned i dont like give away stone, but it is an option worth to consider, i say lets wait until we get BW and c do we have copper, that way we can estaminate date of 4th city and choose do we want to settle 4th for trojan or give away stone or idk maybe diferent option.

Gumbolt · Oct 9, 2015

What we might of done is build the city to gift away before stone city. Although that delays mids. Once we tech BW we will need 8 different units to build a new city.

Are we likely to grow to size 8 without BW? This would involve 3 unhappy faces and take time to recover. With a border pop and fish Stone city is not a bad city (Worth keeping for HG wonder.). To make this worthwhile we would need to build a city to gift and another city to keep all before BW. Plus two more warriors. I don't see it happening as we are already planning chops. Also takes out 10 turns of capital building settlers. With chops settlers finish almost in 2-3 turns.

So to get a 4th city with BW we would need to grow the cap to size 8 and in a worst case scenario build 8 archers if we have no copper. This would of been an argument for horse first to build chariots.

I think we just have to accept for the short/long term we are stuck on 3 cities unless we delay BW. This also means by time we build the trojan city there is a chance the AI may refuse it. Of course we still need alphabet to steal any techs.

Can we test building a 4th city before mids?? I really don't think it will work well.

shulec · Oct 9, 2015

Gumbolt said:
What we might of done is build the city to gift away before stone city. Although that delays mids. Once we tech BW we will need 8 different units to build a new city.

Are we likely to grow to size 8 without BW? This would involve 3 unhappy faces and take time to recover. With a border pop and fish Stone city is not a bad city (Worth keeping for HG wonder.). To make this worthwhile we would need to build a city to gift and another city to keep all before BW. Plus two more warriors. I don't see it happening as we are already planning chops. Also takes out 10 turns of capital building settlers. With chops settlers finish almost in 2-3 turns.

So to get a 4th city with BW we would need to grow the cap to size 8 and in a worst case scenario build 8 archers if we have no copper. This would of been an argument for horse first to build chariots.

I think we just have to accept for the short/long term we are stuck on 3 cities unless we delay BW. This also means by time we build the trojan city there is a chance the AI may refuse it. Of course we still need alphabet to steal any techs.

Can we test building a 4th city before mids?? I really don't think it will work well.

I agree with our limitations that the standard approach to a Trojan Horse city will not work easily. But I completely disagree with your assessment that Stone City is not a bad city. It has only the fish that can be improved to a productive tile. Of course, I can't ignore the access to stone. Beyond that, it is terrible.

We can get the most out if Stone City by chopping its BFC, shipping it to the ground, then giving it away.

yyeah · Oct 9, 2015

We need to wait allso to see will GS will born in 1 of my attemts where i go a bit later i had GE.
But yea this city is total crap :lol:

if Gs will born and we can give it to Darius iam like total agreee with giving it to him after HG's.
Becouse we can steal CoL and go for early CS that way we can reach 2nd milestone preety quick and with this limitations CS around 500BC ..... :nuke:

Edit
WE need to reserch Alpha anyway to have use of Trojan ( and spies needs to get stationary bonus what allso takes a while), so in this time we should finish HG's... allso currency would be "usefull"...

elitetroops · Oct 9, 2015

Yes, in a normal game the city would be ok, work 2 scientist with fish and it's better than nothing. However, in this game it's not enough to be better than nothing, has to be better than what we could have instead, and there are for sure better cities we could settle if we dump stone.

What was the rule with culture in cities and razing? If we get culture there from monument, can we raze it later when we capture it for conquest, or do we have to keep it?

yyeah · Oct 9, 2015

I dont know how it works to be honest but we can leave this city for the end allso ... theres no problem to take it out.
Anotehr thing is that we can conquer it if we need stone.

Gumbolt · Oct 9, 2015

We have 3 sources of stone. Albeit the other sources seem just as limited in terms of locations. We can give away stone but then until we have BW or archery we would struggle for a 4th city. We could in theory hold back BW a few turns and build a settler to replace stone city. Assuming we can still grab the horse city? Of course stone still city still has some uses while we can build wonders and get fail gold.

Have we checked to see which Ai might accept stone??? Of course horse city is avergae till get agriculture. The cow city would offer more grassland. Deer/fish is not horrible. We still face same issue with barbs.

Overall question for me here is squeezing in a settler before BW/mids? Is it possible or wise?

The main issue is scouting now without barb warriors dying. So sea becomes best choice. Remmeber we are scouting by sea from bottom of the map. Most stuff will be north of us. Unless a wide pangea seperated by sea and mountain.

shulec · Oct 9, 2015

I don't think there are any actions to take for Trojan now, so carry on with Mids plan.

Gumbolt · Oct 9, 2015

The only issue with gifting stone later might be all the Ai have more than 3-4 cities. When they reach that limit you need the city to be gifted to be 8-9 tiles from the Ai's cultural border.

HG is nice but will really only provide us with 2 extra pop if we have 2-3 cities. Lot of hammers to get 2 more pop. I guess the GE points will be useful. Ultimately I think we may need galleons to reach the other Ai effectively. That or use galleys. Circ navigation bonus would really help too. So 2-3 GS may be useful pending on what exploring shows. We could well use Gspy to explore too?

So long term I see a need to possibly beeline astronomy if we have no easy way to war with the AI.

My alternative to maths would be too beeline alphabet now. Then try to steal techs but as Yyeah suggests this would take many turns and the spies could well be caught too. Hopefully not if the Ai lack alphabet.

I guess stick to mids plan for now. Changing that now just seems to cause too many issues. I am beginning to wonder if space will be quicker. :lol:

Packers5280 · Oct 9, 2015

Stone city wouldn't be a bad city to gift away after maybe the HG. Then there's not many stone wonders worth while, unless we want to use the stone to cheapen wonders and get those cheap wonders, like maybe chicken pizza. Not ideal to get, but cheap with stone. One thing I think we do need to do is not be picky with wonders. If we have stone, and they require stone, the wonders will be cheap. So we should build cheap wonders, even if they won't be of use. But, yeah, mids for now.

But a fast tech rate will mean the AIs will have a chance to build wonders. After we chop all the forests around Rome, we wouldn't be able to produce wonders fast.

The next great person due in 31 turns, so it could be a GE or a Gspy. I would be fine with both. Free wonder, or free exploring now and then techs later. Getting spies would be of some use for exploring as well.

There is that area to Rome's NE that still isn't explored. We should scout there first before city #4, imo.

elitetroops · Oct 10, 2015

If we have decided to gift away Stone, then it should now build workboat, and fish something else instead of 2nd exploring workboat. Lighthouse? That's the only change to the plan I can think off.

But micro still needs to be tested from this new setup.

elitetroops · Oct 10, 2015

Tested some mids strategies. Can't figure out how to do it in 900BC anymore, end up 6 base hammers short.

So 875BC it is. Not sure yet what is the best way to play this.

yyeah · Oct 10, 2015

elitetroops said:
Tested some mids strategies. Can't figure out how to do it in 900BC anymore, end up 6 base hammers short. So 875BC it is. Not sure yet what is the best way to play this.

You meen with 2 choops ?
If yes we cant do it with 2 choops i allso tested so many things, to try do it like you did in 900 BC with 2 chops and didnt manage ( when i start to bulid lib 1 turn later), best attempt i needed 1 hammer i mmen work on 1 more cant do it without starving.
So i think3 choops they will be overflowed to aqueduct anyway, its a little waste becouse if we choop it in to HG's it would be multiplaied gby stone but it isnt huge diference i think.

I think in this case i would like to have extra beakers then hammers, and put it i dont know i to what yet but we need alpha, currancy, if we planning to give awaystone site we dont need mistycyzm yet

Allso about HG's Gumbolt writed that with 3 cities it isnt too much i agree, but we dont want to be at 3 cites i think we should aim for 5, in this case 5 pop when we will about maybe 20 its big diference ... its 25% of our population.
Allso Hg's is another wonder.

Hmm well it would be nice if we give away stone site befor HG's will complete and settle 3 sites...

This is so many things .... lets focus on finishing mids 1st.

Gumbolt · Oct 10, 2015

Sorry not made most of the day so far. Late nights dont = early starts.

Yep focus on mids. HG is a long way off as for 5 cities we need 10 pop and 10 non warriors plus 5 buildings. Makes whipping the capital really difficult. A few farms would really speed up growth after rep. Still only takes happiness cap to 8. Ivory and sugar to 10. Wine to 11. No silver, gold or gems popped yet.

I will fire test save up in a bit. (Sorry loads of stuff to do even on a lazy day.)

SGOTM 22 - TTfkapr

Phoenix Rising

Deity

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Grrrrr... I AM the force!

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Grrrrr... I AM the force!

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Grrrrr... I AM the force!

Phoenix Rising

Deity

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