SGOTM 22 - TTfkapr

[Gumbolt]

Test game. 825 mids.

Trojan gifted and 3rd city built. Delayed BW. So 1 turn anarchy for civic changes. Fish city builds settler and 1 warrior if needed. Turns used on workboat so some turns spare for fish. The fog buster for horse can move back to city assuming no barb warriors.

Micro can be worked on.

Test save is missing deer fish and has 1 extra warrior that I didn't move.

One issue here is I could not gift the city to all Ai. So it's possible none of the Ai might accept Cumue.

On live game if we gift stone city we will be waiting for 6 archers/axes. Which could involve archery too. So at least 6-8 turns to build them. Probably 2-3 chops. If copper this will require a mine. Plus we will also probably want a worker too.

The alternative here is to go early BW. Build mids in fish city. Then use capital for library and archers. Maybe even a settler. I think our strategy here doing mids delays future expansion especially if we gift stone asap.

The next question might be what date we expect mids to go?

 

[elitetroops]

Just to make sure we all talk about the same thing, that's 850BC mids. So only 1-2 turn later than we would get the other way. I actually like the idea a lot... Not so tight on beakers when we don't have to reach math by date xx, so stone can push out those workboats fast. Probably should have researched AG, though.

Fish a bit behind, but could be whipping granary soon if you weren't building warrior.

Getting up third city that fast is huge advantage. With BW first we would have to build 6 archers/axes, which is a big delay. With horses we can also then build chariots for 4th city, which is better than building archers imo. Though I'd still prefer to 2 pop axes if we have copper around.

On first look I'd say I prefer this over anything else we did so far.

 

[Gumbolt]

This all assumes no barb city has already spawned there.

Deer/fish city is not impossible. Especially if stone builds it a workboat. Horse city is nice as we can skip archery and attack barb cities. So once stone city is built we should return our fogbuster to near horse site.

 

[elitetroops]

Cap lacks library, but this is maybe not such a big deal... And maybe one of the workboats from stone should have been a monument for the culture bonus on espionage missions. Shulec can maybe tell us how this works. But I just noticed you apparently built 3 workboats, so monument shouldn't be a problem.

I don't see any point in attacking barb cities, unless it's a city spot we really want.

Question is, is there still a 4th city spot we could want before BW? Capital already has 4 buildings, should be pop 8 soon with rep and we have the warriors.

 

[Gumbolt]

Deer/fish? Otherwise what the workboats find. BSP loves giving us island cities. The cow site would be good for cottages. The issue here is barbs/barb cities.

Yep stone city could build all WB's we need. If we want a monument we need msyt.

Delaying BW has it's issues. This is why Anti TSR have likely gone early archery. If we could delay BW more we could go 8 warriors, s8 and 4 buildings. I really don't think we should rush this without more testing. Small danger we could lose mids as one of the Ai have huge hummers here. Still it will take them 15-20+ turns without stone. I think if they had stone TGW would of gone much sooner.

I was not gainst Shulecs mids fish city apart from the date.

 

[elitetroops]

Stonehenge went sooner than in any other monarch game I looked at, most likely someone has stone. Wouldn't be surprised if many of them have.

 

[shulec]

One issue here is I could not gift the city to all Ai. So it's possible none of the Ai might accept Cumue.

AI with three cities anywhere in the world. At 4 or more cities, they will not take city if they are in economic hardship or if the city is more than 9 tiles away. (Diagonal tiles count as 3, not 2)

 

[shulec]

I am trying to find the details on the trojan city.
-40% EP - Trojan is running a different state religion than the one we have a holy city for and are running.
-50% EP - Stationary spy
-20% EP - Trade route with Trojan city (this is not clear how it is determined - needs research)
+16% EP - Distance of Trojan/Stone City from Rome
-??% EP - for Espoinage point spending (needs work to calculate)
-??% EP - Culture (needs work, not likely useful - related to ratios of culture between us and AI in Trojan.)

 

[Gumbolt]

In an ideal world we would gift the city with 4-5 stationary spies with 50% discount already.

Only 2 Ai without 3 cities. In 22 turns you would expect them to all have at least 3-4 cities. Unless BSP has restricted an Ai on land?? We are the only imperialist civ here. Maybe we will be lucky and one goes war mode early. Most seems to have a military resource here.

 

[Gumbolt]

I am off out in a bit for the night. I think let's just test out other strategies for now. So delaying BW. Mids in other cities. If we can make either of them work it gives us options to build archers or change our tech strategy.

The big question is how much are we willing to gamble on mids dates??? We took risks before. Why not now? if I can I will try to do more testing tomorrow. I would love to see Shulec use latest test save to show a fish city approach using archers so we can rex quickly after mids. That will be my next test. 2nd worker early. Settler in capital. Archers in capital. Chops into mids. With a view to quickly grow to size 8 after mids to rex.

 

[Packers5280]

Well if we want to get a holy city, philo would probably be the most reasonable we have the first chance to get. The 40% discount might be worth a beeline.

 

[Gumbolt]

Stonehenge went sooner than in any other monarch game I looked at, most likely someone has stone. Wouldn't be surprised if many of them have.

Yes difficulty will be harder than monarch with the restrictions. What dates would you expect on immortal? Remember the AI appear to have started with free resources and PH. Certainly one had marble due to Oracle date. Although they did have the starting techs.

So dates for mids?? 500 hammers. Top AI has 32 hammers. Divided by 3 suggests at least 11 per city. More likely 20+ from their capital? Does usage of marble or stone affect this? The reality is the Ai could build stone in 20 turns or less without stone. 10-15 turns with. Guessing persians for the hammers. I think Arabians had the food.

I think we just have to play it out and see what happens. Looking at TSR culture from 925bc-775 it seems to be 10 culture a turn. 2 from palace, 2 GW and 6 from mids. Unless they managed a monument or library. Mids should be safe.

 

[elitetroops]

I'm sorry but I won't have any time to play in the next few days. If you want to keep the game moving, I will have to skip my turn for now. I haven't yet done any testing with the 3rd city before BW approach, which I think looks like the better option for now.

Will have more time from next weekend on, can take turnset then.

 

[Gumbolt]

Next up would be Shulec. You can slot in after him pending how things go.

Been really tired today or I would of play tested more.

 

[shulec]

I really don't have any time for about 48 hours, then I will get to work on some scenarios and a formal PPP.

 

[Gumbolt]

I think we are on a waiting game here.

If fish builds mids I can't see us slipping in archery. The reality is we would want to build archers so we could expand to 3-4 cities quickly after mids. Unless we delayed mids more. Hmmmm.

 

[justjohn]

Hello everyone!
GB told me I could join you even at this late date, and Alan has now added me to your (now our) team, and here I am, wanting to say hello to everyone! I am at work right now, and it will take me some time to read through all messages, but I will eventually be ready to do my part.
John

 

[elitetroops]

Welcome justjohn! (Can we call you JJ?)

Quick summary about what's going on right now, in case the first 550 posts are too confusing...

Short term goals:

-Settle on top of stone T63
-Build mids in capital
-Get exploring workboats out and basic infra in Fish city
-Gift away stone city (after mids) to steal techs later
-Expand to 3rd and 4th city

Original plan was to tech BW, switch to slavery, whip library in capital into mids, then chop a couple of forests to have mids done 900BC or 875BC. Now Gumbolt proposed plan that delays BW, has mids done 850BC, but instead we can gift away stone and settle 3rd city without having to build archers/axes, and maybe even 4th city with just a couple of more warriors. I'm not sure if we've reached any consensus yet about which path to take.

Long term goals.... eh, we don't really have those, because we have no idea what this is going to take to win. Haven't found any AI yet, nor met any AI units except scouts that were placed on the peninsula south of our capital at the start of the game.

Latest test game, which should be in exact same state as real game, can be found here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=14000658&postcount=522

 

[justjohn]

Welcome justjohn! (Can we call you JJ?)

Please do! (But not to be confused with High King J.J.)

-Settle on top of stone T63
-Build mids in capital
-Get exploring workboats out and basic infra in Fish city
-Gift away stone city (after mids) to steal techs later
-Expand to 3rd and 4th city

Original plan was to tech BW, switch to slavery, whip library in capital into mids, then chop a couple of forests to have mids done 900BC or 875BC. Now Gumbolt proposed plan that delays BW, has mids done 850BC, but instead we can gift away stone and settle 3rd city without having to build archers/axes, and maybe even 4th city with just a couple of more warriors. I'm not sure if we've reached any consensus yet about which path to take.

First thing first (to check I have understood the requirements correctly): In order to build our third city on T63 (when our capital grows to size 6), we need 3 more warriors in our capital, right? Are we moving one or two warriors back to our capital (in addition to build two or one)?

It sounds like both plans involve gifting the stone city. Do we have some thought about what to do if that is not possible by the time we want to do it? I don't even know if being on the same landmass matters when trying to gift cities. (Is our second city giftable?) I think I read something that producing culture in a city before you gift it (as opposed to let an AI capture it) will not help with the espionage bonus, but that might very well be outdated information.

I have not had time enough to compare the two plans (or even looked at their details).

The test save have city ruins towards the southeast corner of the map. Is that there in the real game? Do we know if there ever was a city there or if the ruins must have added in worldbuilder (which I only assume is possible)?

-jj

 

[Gumbolt]

Hi JJ! Great to have another player here.

Yes the 2 warriors are on their way back to Rome. We are also building more warriors. We need 6 warriors, 3 non military buildings and popx2 of number of cities. So size 6 for city number 3.

So 4th city requires 4 buildings, 8 warriors and 8 pop.

If we get BW then we need 8 of another units for 4th city. 8 Archers, Chariots or even axes?

The plan was to gift the stone city away after mids. Mainly because we consider the stone city to be a junk city. This means we would need an AI still to be on 3 cities. AI with 3 cities will accept any city on the map. Otherwise things get complicated on gifting. It is a risk. Otherwise the city has to be 8-9 tiles from the AI borders.

The problem we face is if we go BW before mids and gift stone we would then need 6 non warrior defenders for Rome. This would put us on 2 cities and a long way off a 3rd city. Hence my test save where I delayed BW and built a settler in fish city. Anti-TSR judging from graphs took the plunge and either went archery or settler horse city first.

Overall my view is delaying BW we could try and tech archery or something sooner and start building non warrior somewhere. While fish does settler. It was also suggested trying mids in Fish city. We seem to think stone can be a wb pump now.

I would not gift away fish city. Once you mine the hills nearby this is a great production city. You don't give away your prize cow at a local fair. You give away the one on it's last legs which is diseased.

City ruins are our own doing. This is very much a test game and we have not edited the far off land.