SGOTM 22 - Xteam

[leif erikson]

Ran a test out to 780AD. Used World Builder to magic in three additional cities and set culture in those cities, and the capital, to 5005 culture points each. While there were several revolts in Rome, it never flipped. Perhaps it is the beauty of giving it to Arbia as they sent missionaries and prophets and who knows what else to build up the culture, reaching 40%.

Seems to me we have little to worry about.

 

[neilmeister]

In CvPlot the calculation is as follows:

Spoiler :

if (pCity->isBarbarian() || (!(GC.getGameINLINE().isOption(GAMEOPTION_NO_CITY_FLIPPING)) && (GC.getGameINLINE().isOption(GAMEOPTION_FLIPPING_AFTER_CONQUEST) || !(pCity->isEverOwned(eCulturalOwner))) && (pCity->getNumRevolts(eCulturalOwner) >= GC.getDefineINT("NUM_WARNING_REVOLTS"))))
{
	if (GC.getGameINLINE().isOption(GAMEOPTION_ONE_CITY_CHALLENGE) && GET_PLAYER(eCulturalOwner).isHuman())
	{
		pCity->kill(true);
	}
	else
	{
		setOwner(eCulturalOwner, true, true); // will delete pCity
	}
	pCity = NULL;
}

This means a city can flip only if:
- it is in at least its second revolt with its current owner OR 1 if its barbarian
AND any of the following are true
- it is currently a barb city OR
- ('No flipping' is not an option OR 'Flip after conquest' is an option OR we have never owned the city) AND The minimum number of 'warning' revolts have occurred (1)

Options in Red are never true for this game
Therefore if we gift the city, none of these can ever be true, so the city will never flip back to us UNLESS IT IS CONQUERED BY BARBS

edit: So if we gift it, we must protect it

 

[Cactus Pete]

Before I tried to get Rome to revolt, I had run a test out to 100bc (which I used to test Rome revolting).
Tech path: IW->Myst->Alpha
I waited to settle the second city until we got IW and had put iron far to the west out by the silk. Settler stayed in Caput until IW discovered. I did send an Archer out to that area when I started the test game. I did this based on iron being as far west from our starting location as copper is east. So, in a near worst case scenario (excepting iron not being available at all), you settled an iron city in 675BC. That appeals to me. Like to hear what others think. Caput concentrated on getting settlers out. I settled next to iron in 675bc (not an ideal spot but AI had a settler close by). Next city built in 525 on purple dot. Another city was built in 100bc for gems & deer (had to wait for Caput to grow to 8 to build).

Also, in this test I settled the GS when I got him instead of doing an infiltrate mission for 3000 ep. I was able to steal my way to Monarchy by 225ad and still have over 300 ep left to steal more techs. If I was going to play more I would switch the eps to Gil since he has built close to our iron city.

Certainly makes a case for the stealing-techs option.

BTW, let's not forget about trying to produce an exploring wkbt.

 

[neilmeister]

I think we know we want to settle the 4 resources spot in the jungle. We should do this as soon as we can so that it can build its monument and pop its borders.

This city will not restrict us in terms of Iron

 

[Htadus]

I think we know we want to settle the 4 resources spot in the jungle. We should do this as soon as we can so that it can build its monument and pop its borders.

This city will not restrict us in terms of Iron

It all depend on what you call a restriction. If it is OK for the city to not grow for a while and be non productive, then it will not be a restriction. Our next city should be the city with horses and corn. That way we will have access to horses and possibly HA if we are not going to get Iron soon.

I am like the proverbial stick in the mud right now. I am more inclined to go with Alpha as Joe recommends.

Anyways, I started the current BOTM and am going to give it a go for the next 2 hours. I will be back with some recent BTS experience. By the way, can someone save the current real game without the pause feature for me to check some things like how the AI are greeting us as of this moment. "Say hello to my lovely swordsman who will come destroy your puny nation" or some thing like that.

 

[Htadus]

I did a test to see what these AI would be teching next. I created a bunch of GSpy's and bombed each civ to learn what they are doing. This is just to get a baseline idea as to what they are learning.

Around T85, I was starting to wonder if we need that gem city or not due to whip anger related happiness. If that bloody fish to the south were a bit closer, we should consider it. Still do not think it is worth it since it can only have 2 x3 food tiles and 2 4 food tile. Anyways, I think that city is back on my consideration dependent on what we find to north.

Spoiler :

T72 (Current turn): moved the settler toward cow site. We need commerce. I let the current archer finish. Dowed Hanny to get 2 workers. Bombed each civ. switched capital build to an archer. I am not going to chop the forest where worker 2 is on. Move him to forest 3E of capital tile. Sci=Myst.

T73: Gifted the GIFT city to AI(Sal in this case but I am Ok with Darius) and just left the warrior in the city, did not gift him. Woodie 2 and 2 workers are in a jungle. Nearly always (I do not know the code) the AI do not attack the worker thief IBT during the first turn of war without advance units. We need workers to clear jungles.Whip archer in capital. Settler and worker from GIFT move 1 tile toward cow site (Wine tile). Move new archer toward capital. Worker build road for 1 turn.

T74: All archers are in capital. Settler on tile and found Cow city and starting an Archer. Move 2 archers toward Gift City but will not gift them. Woody and co moving 1 tile at a time. Woodies 2 moves help clear threats. Worker start a farm on wine. Moving another archer toward the elephant site and sent the remaining city warrior south to clear a passage toward gems. Who knows where we settle next?

T75: Hanny is ready for CF. I take it. But I am not sure if it will be the same in the game. Science=Alpha. Worker 3 finish mine for Cap and start a road toward Elephant site and a forest is chopped for capital. GLH in 4 turns.

T76: Whip GLH in capital for 2 pop.

T77: 2 Down and 5 to go. Science rate is really low at the moment. Capital start WB.

T78: Capital working fish and 2 river mines. Farm complete for City 2. This city will run some cottages.

T79: Worker building a cottage for new Rome. Others are roading to potential city sites.

T80: Archer on Ivory and warrior E of gem. Who knows what we will find to NW?

T81: Archer going north of Ivory (Will zig zag) and warrior on deer. Capital finish WB and start Archer. WB go west. Oh GIFT is building a Madrassa after finishing the Archer I had started.

T82: Since Rome grow to 2 next turn, switch build to a Monument. Stolen workers are home.

T83: Whip monument. AI are teching like mad.

T84: Warrior exploring south was killed by a barb warrior. Should have sent the archer.

T85: Capital complete archer and start a Lib. We a re not missing growth. Need science.

T86: Not much. The first spear is about to attach GIFT city.

T87: We have a GSpy at 78% chance.

Starting with Turn 73, these are the techs each AI is learning.

Spoiler :

Arabia: Meditation, Fishing (T77), Sailing(T80), IW(T83)
Persian: Sailing, Masonry(80), Myst(T85)
Celtic: IW. Poly(86)
Carthage: Math, Construction: oh oh(87) We need Preats.
Ethiopia: IW, Poly(T77), Writing(80), Math(T83)
Sumeria: Monarchy, Writing(T83)

I have to go clean the house. Be back later. Who is next and will someone please past an unpaused save for me. Please. Pretty please.

 

[Cactus Pete]

"will someone please past an unpaused save for me. Please. Pretty please." Can't you just hit the Pause button? What else would you do if you were the next player?

 

[Htadus]

My keyboard does not have a pause button. I looked up on the internet for an alternative key combo. I read that the break +F12 will work. The problem is there is no break button either. At my work computer, both break and pause buttons are the same.

As for the second part of your question,, not play is the current option.

I have been reluctant to test key combo's just in case I accidently dow all AI or find a cheat to give ourselves kajillian Samurai's or the worst case to retire the game unintentionally.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Understood. Hope this works for you. Careful . . . it's not paused.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=399612&stc=1&d=1445220962

 

[Htadus]

Understood. Hope this works for you. Careful . . . it's not paused.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=399612&stc=1&d=1445220962

Thank you. I will get a feel for the game now and be back.

 

[Htadus]

Ok. So having looked at the map and contacted the AI.
Brennus and Gilga are not in our current espy plans since they already has 4 cities.

• Brennus has spears.
• Sal has chariots
• Darius, Zara and Gilga are so polite and make no threats after many contacts. Just want to be helpful.
• Ok This is weired. Hanny already have Numidian Cav? I know he go for HBR immediately but this is fast. So lets not worker steal from him right now.

Gift City:

Spoiler :

I am in favor of gifting the city to Darius and after completing the Archer for the following reason. Out of the 2 AI for whom we have intelligence, Sal has the best G/F/H per turn and he has a Religious shrine (gold for us). So he should be one of our early targets (assuming he is easily reachable) because if he has a super site as it seem to be, we want those cities as our cities 5, 6 and on. We want the best sites. So lets take a chance and complete the archer and gift the city to Darius. Lets not gift the archer.

Next City:

Spoiler :

Our next city should be a city that can grow fast and be immediate contributor. Only one site fits that right now. The site located 4 tiles west of Rome and has 3 wines and a cow in the BFC. It also have several forested hills for chops. Nearly all other city sites are just marginal. It can have a farm on the riverside wine and run a few cottages until we can build a Monument. I am willing to skip Myst and steal it.

Before talking about tech path, we need to decide on what we think is needed to complete this game as fast as possible.

The fastest path to meet all the requirements will be:
1: A very focused Capital.

Spoiler :

Capital should only be focused on growing and building wonders. This is going to be the main bottle neck along with tech rate. Right now we are going to have a happy issue which will disappear once we can use HR and as we get happy resources. So lets build as many buildings, and whip workers and a few settlers (to have on hand) for use when needed and a few units during the early game before we can let it grow to 20+ pop. Basically, during early game, such as now, let the capital grow into 2-3 unhappy and whip buildings and complete it or whip units, worker and settler and not complete them until we need them or as long as we can to reduce unit cost. Also this is a good way to bank hammers for Wonders. Specially with buildings.

2: Fast tech rate.

Spoiler :

Well, BSP made this game extremely difficult by limiting our expansion and with no tech trading. So we need to use our bulbs best way possible. We need a bit of luck to generate a GSpy and do a whole lot of tech stealing. That requires Alpha more than anything else. We should focus our tech path to get Alpha and then to techs that will give us the cheapest and useful Wonders. That means head toward Lit.

I am going to assume that we only have Ivory and copper available as wonder "speed". So SoZ should be a very quick wonder when we have learned Aesthetics with a few chops (if we are not in a hurry to chop them for simpler things). Also we should consider the possibility of and AI willing to trade marble or stone. That would speed up the game even more.

Going back to the tech rate, we should plan to steal techs we know that the AI will learn. Math, IW, CoL, Feud via Monarchy, Machinery via Metal Casting and Calendar are Ai favorites. So lets not learn it our selves. Lets look at the worst case scenario. We do not get a GSpy. Then we can switch our techs to Myst and IW and likely get a full bonus for each AI already knowing it. If we really want to assure that we will get a GSpy, then lets slow down on the GLH (I do not want to do this but may be the right thing to do) and hope for some luck for AI to not build it in time. Gspy will make our game faster. So, as Joe stated, Alpha should be our next tech but we also need to skip Myst. As Neal mentioned, we can and need to build a Lib in the Capital and our next city to expand the boundary.

3. Quick to war.

Sadly I am out of time for the day and I hope to find time tomorrow. BTW, we need to explore the jungle more and locate more AI. This is a top priority for expansion too.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I'm OK with Alpha next and am in Htadus' camp re next city site.

 

[leif erikson]

After looking long and hard at the save, also agree with Htadus' recommendations for Alpha and next city site.

Heading to Lit causes some concern as we need Monarchy for the Wineries and HR. Perhaps we can steal it, that would be ideal. But after Iron Working...

Do we dare try for 'mids after Great Lighthouse? Expensive as hell, but worth every hammer if we get it. If not, the failure gold would spur our research.

 

[Htadus]

Any thoughts about delaying the GLH? Of course it will delay the GP also.

There is a very good likelihood of having 1 or 2 AI with coastal capitals. So the risk is there to loose it but 4000 espy points can steal a whole bunch of techs.

@ Leif. I see nothing wrong with the capital going for the Mids. It would be even better if there is stone out near the elephant site. So that is a recon priority.

I will be available this weekend to play. So if we can come to an agreement and no one else is willing to play, then let me know and I will prep a plan.

BTW, I feel like BSP is messing with us w.r.t. IW. We have the best Iron unit, he gave us no horses or copper (near by) and almost seem to goad us toward IW. I bet that is also no where near us. But he did give us Ivory, so there is a fall back plan.

Our ultimate tech path should lead us to Cuirasses.

 

[Cactus Pete]

"Any thoughts about delaying the GLH? Of course it will delay the GP also." Question whether the risk is worth it, as we may get a GSpy anyway. If we did delay, how do you propose going about it? Build GLH to one turn before completion and wait for a GP, or calculate how many turns we need to delay and get back to it after that many turns?

 

[leif erikson]

Any thoughts about delaying the GLH? Of course it will delay the GP also.

Think we should not delay. The alternative to the Great Spy is a Great Merchant. He can do a Trade Mission for cash for research, although the Great Spy would be more powerful imnsho.

There is a very good likelihood of having 1 or 2 AI with coastal capitals. So the risk is there to loose it but 4000 espy points can steal a whole bunch of techs.

Yes, and the fail gold would be nice. However, that still leaves us having to build a bunch of wonders with no stone or marble. Not sure we can afford that and get an early finish date?

@ Leif. I see nothing wrong with the capital going for the Mids. It would be even better if there is stone out near the elephant site. So that is a recon priority.

Agreed.

edit - Let's not forget about that Work Boat.

I will be available this weekend to play. So if we can come to an agreement and no one else is willing to play, then let me know and I will prep a plan.

Sounds like a good plan to me. We need to move this along.

BTW, I feel like BSP is messing with us w.r.t. IW. We have the best Iron unit, he gave us no horses or copper (near by) and almost seem to goad us toward IW. I bet that is also no where near us. But he did give us Ivory, so there is a fall back plan.

Not too sure.

He has set it up so that we cannot win too soon with the requirements for wonders and city growth restrictions. With out Praets, we will have decisions to make over what to keep and what to raze. However, I prefer those decisions as war will help us hobble the AI and keep them under control.

Our ultimate tech path should lead us to Cuirasses.

I hope it won't take that long.

 

[Ronnie1]

I am pretty certain that BSP tried to design a scenario that will take us BEYOND Cuirassiers.

I like Alpha next, city site selection needs to be resource dependent imo. I am not sure I love any of the current sites, but want to keep an eye on gathering resources that will be beneficial long term.

 

[leif erikson]

I am pretty certain that BSP tried to design a scenario that will take us BEYOND Cuirassiers.

That's a long game with no tech trading!

 

[BSPollux]

No pain, no gain

 

[Jersey Joe]

Any thoughts about delaying the GLH? Of course it will delay the GP also. I would not delay more than 2 or 3 turns.

There is a very good likelihood of having 1 or 2 AI with coastal capitals. So the risk is there to loose it but 4000 espy points can steal a whole bunch of techs. I am reasonably sure Hannibal has a large coastal city based on his border and what looks like more ocean in the fog. Also, he is close to the top of the map so the other AI's are west and east of him and some are likely to have coastal cities.

@ Leif. I see nothing wrong with the capital going for the Mids. It would be even better if there is stone out near the elephant site. So that is a recon priority. Before the Mids, Caput could use a granary and a library.

I will be available this weekend to play. So if we can come to an agreement and no one else is willing to play, then let me know and I will prep a plan.

BTW, I feel like BSP is messing with us w.r.t. IW. We have the best Iron unit, he gave us no horses or copper (near by) and almost seem to goad us toward IW. I bet that is also no where near us. But he did give us Ivory, so there is a fall back plan.

Our ultimate tech path should lead us to Cuirasses. We should not dismiss the space mission, that could turn out to be the best ultimate goal.

I like gifting Darius (steal CoL and build courthouses for more eps).

I am not convinced that settling the cows is superior to settling the 4 resources in the jungle or even to settling to get the silk west of us.