SGOTM 22 - Xteam

Htadus · Nov 4, 2015

Jersey Joe said:
Justification for settling the jungle:
We can settle it with only 6 archers the settler does not need protection. If we do not secure the areas we want to at all 3 locations, we risk needing to take it from Barb as you noticed yourself. So the idea of settling with just 6 archers total is not accurate.
Ivory city is close to Caput so maintaince cost is less than copper city. True
Saladin settled his last 2 cities east of Mecca moving toward us. We should claim some of the land west of us before Sal settles it.This is still a Monarch game, AI will get to about 5-7 cities and slow the expansion to build stuff. Sal went after stone. So he is going after a wonder. I bet it is the HG
Improved tiles are not an issue for the first 8 turns while we work a mine and get a monument. After the monument we start a granary and switch from mine to banana (banana is same amount of food as any tile the copper city could work). You do not think the corn tile has more food? Do you not think the copper city will grow faster and also get us some useful resource? We reach pop 2 and can work banana and mine. Also, around the time we reach pop 2 we should learn alpha.Do you think working 2F and 1F3H1C is better than working two 2F1H1C tiles? Before we can whip the granary we get a border expansion. Even if we have not stolen IW we can work a second banana and road to the elephants and construct a camp. Or we can work a farmed corn and a mined copperAll of the above get done in the same amount of time whether or not we know IW.

What trades routes can the galley discover if we do not have OB with any of the AIs to the east of us? I am sure we have OB with Celts in the real game. I base this guess on your saying Darius is in the west and Zara being close to Saladin because he knows Hinduism. How important is a circumnavigation bonus on a pangea map?

Now this Joe, I can not say will even be possible. But I have played xotm's that has allowed continental map game to be circumnavigated with wb's. Several times.

A Pangaea map that is irregular could have a use for 3 movement galley's. Say we want to hit an AI capital 6 tiles away from the closest culture path. We can go 3 turns with HA to get the city and give AI a chance to whip a few units or use 2 turns with galleys and cats and Preats and WE? Even without the 3 move, I would like to use Galleys since that will only give AI 1 turn to whip a unit in the city being threatened.

Why do we want to take an AI capital first? Should be the juiciest and is usually poor defended too.

Anyways, I would rather try and fail than not try and find that it was possible.

I wish have the time to show how big of a difference it will be at T100. But I do not.

Ronnie1 · Nov 4, 2015

Testing a bit more.

Settling the Gem city next is best for our overall tech rate because it is close and we can get to work on a Gem mine immediately after camping the deer. An un-spectacular city, but very productive at size 2 and above. This city also gets the benefit of the GLH trade routes. It could also start building a galley immediately, freeing Caput from that build.

Every time I get a galley out of Caput it slows the settling of the next city significantly. Doesn't matter if I whip Granary 1st or Galley 1st, the founding of the next city is about 6 turns slower.

Also, both the Gems and/or the Elephants allow Caput to grow and work more improved tiles, not an unimportant point given nearly all of our science output is being generated there.

Cactus Pete · Nov 5, 2015

I'm not reading any compelling reasons not to settle copper and corn.

Htadus · Nov 5, 2015

There are so many things that will be different between the game and the test. I am more than sure that we will be able to get happiness trades from AI since it seems that they have some coin tiles.

Lets just hope for Celts not to be too crazy and come after us. I will change my vote for elephant city to be founded next since it will be the more useful of two happy sites. Lets focus on settling that city asap (with some luck and chops, it can be as early as T84-86) and get the cow city to build a Monument and a lib with whip and chops, and run 2 scientist before CM say it need 35 turns to generate the next GP.

So basically focus on the settler and 2-3 archers as needed to settle the Ivory. Then Galley before granary. Then we prep city 5 to steal IW and claim Iron.

Jersey Joe · Nov 5, 2015

Ronnie1 said:
Testing a bit more.

Settling the Gem city next is best for our overall tech rate because it is close and we can get to work on a Gem mine immediately after camping the deer. An un-spectacular city, but very productive at size 2 and above. This city also gets the benefit of the GLH trade routes. It could also start building a galley immediately, freeing Caput from that build.

Every time I get a galley out of Caput it slows the settling of the next city significantly. Doesn't matter if I whip Granary 1st or Galley 1st, the founding of the next city is about 6 turns slower.

Also, both the Gems and/or the Elephants allow Caput to grow and work more improved tiles, not an unimportant point given nearly all of our science output is being generated there.

Ronnie, you make a good point. The gem city gives us a nice boost in commerce and is a nice productive city. Once I got both the gems and deer online I never let the pop drop below 2. I suggest you skip building a monument, a border pop is not immediately needed. In tests I built granary (1 chop+whip). Then whipped 2 archers for Caput, while I was chopping the wet grass for farming (the chops went into a Library) and after another archer a barracks (1 chop+whip).

@Htadus, Why do you think more than the archers required to be in Caput are needed to settle the jungle site? Is not using an unescorted settler how you built Rome? I do not understand how needing more archers to settle the other sites impacts on settling the jungle site.
Sal only has 5 cities so he could still crank out 2 more settlers while waiting for a border pop and stone to get hooked up.
Based on the site Leif picked for settlement, the corn will not produce 4 food until 25 turns after settlement (build monument, border pop then farm) so the corm starts producing 4 food about 2 turns before the bananas do.

Htadus · Nov 5, 2015

Jersey Joe said:
Ronnie, you make a good point. The gem city gives us a nice boost in commerce and is a nice productive city. Once I got both the gems and deer online I never let the pop drop below 2. I suggest you skip building a monument, a border pop is not immediately needed. In tests I built granary (1 chop+whip). Then whipped 2 archers for Caput, while I was chopping the wet grass for farming (the chops went into a Library) and after another archer a barracks (1 chop+whip).Gem city is more than unspectacular. Only reason I would build is for the deer. Only reason I change my mind for the elephant first is that it is more than a stop gap city. Unless Ronnie plan to play about 30 turns, it is not happening during his turn and we need more discussion. In a game where we are going to have few cities you are claiming food less mountain city is a good call. I disagree.

@Htadus, Why do you think more than the archers required to be in Caput are needed to settle the jungle site? Is not using an unescorted settler how you built Rome? I do not understand how needing more archers to settle the other sites impacts on settling the jungle site.I assume you have played several test games. Unless your test games were mildly affected by barbs, you should have killed a warrior, spear and an archer at the least in the ivory area. It may not be the case in the real game since Barbs may be heading to Sal. Well, go and try with the hope that Sal's units are preventing barb spawning. I secured each of the 3 sites and Ronnie should secure the copper at the least too.
Sal only has 5 cities so he could still crank out 2 more settlers while waiting for a border pop and stone to get hooked up.
Based on the site Leif picked for settlement, the corn will not produce 4 food until 25 turns after settlement (build monument, border pop then farm) so the corm starts producing 4 food about 2 turns before the bananas do.

Copper city can work a farmed wine as soon as the farm is done. Ivory city will not work anything that good until after IW. BTW, the reason I was able to have the unescorted settler found the city is it was able to get to the site with 1 movement each turn with the option to run away. That is what the Ivory site lack.

Ronnie1 · Nov 5, 2015

Played a few turns, T88, have not uploaded the save.

We are about 11 turns to Alphabet.

Everything went according to plan up to the stopping point.

I 2 pop whipped a Granary in Caput and caught the overflow with a Settler (69 :hammers:

), then switched to an Archer which is 1 turn to complete.

Rome just whipped its Monument this turn.

I am roading out to the Copper site and have an archer in front busting fog on the plains hill next to the settling location.

I have a warrior stationed on the potential Gem city site.

I have an archer busting fog on the Elephant.

I have open up coastal access to Arabia, but it doesn't seem to add the 3rd 2 coin trade route yet. :dunno:

Brennus went clinched fist a couple turns into the set, but he still hates Darius more than us.

Hindu spread to Caput, but no changes made to our religion.

The main reason for the pause is that we just had a Great Merchant born at 19% odds.

Now what???

Should I upload the save? I have time to play some more for the next few days. After the weekend I will be gone for work and holidays until December.

Autolog

Spoiler :

Couple screenies

Spoiler :

leif erikson · Nov 5, 2015

I hate the rng... :mad:

Looks like we'll have to get Libraries built so we can do a trade mission and turn that gold into beakers at the best rate possible. :cry:

Please upload the save so we can have a look.

Jersey Joe · Nov 5, 2015

Ronnie, I think the 2 tiles of fog prevent the completion of the trade route with Sal. I do not have an objection to your playing more turns.

I did a quick check in the test game. A trade mission to GIFT is worth 900 gold. I get the same 900 gold for a mission to Baghdad. Running the mission to Gift takes 1 turn, the mission to Baghdad takes 10 turns.
Instead of a trade mission we could bulb Metal Casting and when we get copper build the Colossus.
The third option (only mention it for completeness) is to settle the GM as a specialist. I am against this option.

As much as building a the Colossus would be nice, I vote that we run a trade mission to Gift.

We also need to take some espionage decisions.
I suggest we change the ep weight to 25% Sal and 75% Darius.
Also, after learning Alpha we go 0% research and 100% ep (all eps to Darius?) for a few turns to steal IW from Darius. The start a 4 turn cycle of 3 turns at 100% research, 0% ep, and 1 turn at 0% research, 100% ep.

leif erikson · Nov 5, 2015

The only problem with a Trade Mission is that we aren't really set up for it. We need the highest conversion of gold to beakers that we can get.

Have to think a bit more about this.

Htadus · Nov 5, 2015

Bad luck Ronnie, nothing could have been done about it other than delaying the GLH. We did not choose to do that.
It would be nice to see the save before saying any thing. If we are not dying to make the trade now, we should wait till someone build the ToA and get the bonus. Should be about 1800 gold.

If Ronnie want to continue, I am good as long as we switch the tech to IW. No reason to finish Alpha before that. We also need to get the empire to 4 productive cities as soon as possible.

Ronnie1 · Nov 5, 2015

Save is uploaded.

Upload log

Spoiler :

Cactus Pete · Nov 6, 2015

Just bad luck. Fine with Ronnie continuing.

IW does seem best now.
In future, when save uploaded at central, be nice if you posted the shortcut provided there in the thread -- saves us a step.

Jersey Joe · Nov 6, 2015

I agree with the others we should switch to IW and then finish Alpha.
Also, beside the change in research to IW, we should change the EP allocation which was based on our getting a Great Spy. We should change from 100% Sal to 25% Sal and 75% Darius.

I noticed that Hannibal has adopted Confucianism, we should offer him OB.

Htadus said:
Bad luck Ronnie, nothing could have been done about it other than delaying the GLH. We did not choose to do that.
It would be nice to see the save before saying any thing. If we are not dying to make the trade now, we should wait till someone build the ToA and get the bonus. Should be about 1800 gold. Unfortunately, the bonus is not that great see below.

If Ronnie want to continue, I am good as long as we switch the tech to IW. No reason to finish Alpha before that. We also need to get the empire to 4 productive cities as soon as possible. I agree we need productive cities.

I did a quick test to see what the bonus from the ToA would be. With 4 trade routes to Sal without ToA all of his cities including Mecca will give us 900 for a trade mission. With ToA in Mecca we get 1,100 from Meca and 900 from his other cities.
Given that we have no guaranty that Sal or Hannibal (the only AI's we have located) will build ToA (the Celts could build it) and the bonus is not that great. I vote that we run a trade mission before we run out of gold and have to drop the research rate. Edit: ToA was built by Zaro in 850bc

Ronnie1 · Nov 6, 2015

TOA was built already by Ethiopia, 850BC.

Jersey Joe · Nov 6, 2015

Here is an updated test game. I found a couple of tiles by Rome that needed to be changed to hills. I added newly explored territory. In doing so, I relocated one of Sal's cities in the test game to accommodate an actual city. I expect to relocate that city again next time I update the test game and we know more about Sal's territory. A few minor differences vs the actual game. Biggest difference might be we do not have OB with Celts.

Htadus · Nov 6, 2015

Assuming we get 1100 g in the ToA trade mission, that is 300g. If we have 30gpt of deficit at 100% science, that is only 10 turns, then may be it is better to loose the 300g and do the mission now. But since our actual deficit is 5bpt (=>60 turns)and the fact our empire is not really set up to benefit from 100% deficit trade, perhaps we should find out how much gold we can get at Zaraland.

As for espy, I would keep it on Sal and steal minor techs that we need to learn CoL as well as others. Once we have a road to that city, we can get some discounts since Sal's stone city is not too far off. If you look at the esp screen, you can see that the cheapest available tech for steal in in Narjan. It will be a religion tech. So for the moment keep it with Sal.

Also the Lib in Rome is not a Priority. We should get it to grow to its max while building units CM. So chop a granary and may be a settler.

Ronnie, please pull the Archer securing the ivory 1 tile diagonally toward the capital. I had a barb city spawning on the hills west of the capital while I had a archer where you have the archer.

Also Ronnie, I think Sal may be trying to claim our Ivory. In tests, every time he had a strong unit in the area of Ivory, he settled it. Usually it was much later but he got a axe there right now. So pull back the archer near gem to the capital, whip the current archer, let the city grow next turn and finish the settler with OF and send the settler to claim toward ivory city site. Then let the city grow to 6 while Rome work on the last archer. We need to build the next two cities asap. So please chop some of those forests in to a settler in Rome.

I would let the archer go check the area east of the copper too.

Ronnie1 · Nov 7, 2015

Stopped again after a couple turns.

More bad news, Persia just settled our Elephants.

Autolog

Spoiler :

Uploadlog

Spoiler :

The save is here
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/download.php?file=Xteam_SG022_BC0600_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

leif erikson · Nov 7, 2015

Htadus said:
Assuming we get 1100 g in the ToA trade mission, that is 300g. If we have 30gpt of deficit at 100% science, that is only 10 turns, then may be it is better to loose the 300g and do the mission now. But since our actual deficit is 5bpt (=>60 turns)and the fact our empire is not really set up to benefit from 100% deficit trade, perhaps we should find out how much gold we can get at Zaraland.

Agree we are not setup to maximize gold conversion.

Thinking we should test converting the trade mission gold to espionage points to see if we get more out of it that way? :dunno:

Jersey Joe · Nov 7, 2015

Htadus said:
Assuming we get 1100 g in the ToA trade mission, that is 300g. If we have 30gpt of deficit at 100% science, that is only 10 turns, then may be it is better to loose the 300g and do the mission now. But since our actual deficit is 5bpt (=>60 turns)and the fact our empire is not really set up to benefit from 100% deficit trade, perhaps we should find out how much gold we can get at Zaraland.

In the test game I put a GM in GIFT and all the AIs Capitals (except for Celts, no OB). With the exception of Ethiopia, all the trade missions yield 900 gold. Ethiopia with the ToA yields 1,100 gold. Two other considerations, the GM does not need an escort for a trade mission to GIFT, and before all the gold from a trade mission is used the AI's will be demanding tribute form our puny civ.

I am in favor of doing a trade mission to GIFT right now.

leif erikson said:
Agree we are not setup to maximize gold conversion.

Thinking we should test converting the trade mission gold to espionage points to see if we get more out of it that way?

When it comes to the cost of a single tech, fully maximized research has a slight edge over fully maximize espionage. Also, while you do not lose ep points on a failed mission you do lose time.
For example, right now it takes 9 turns at 100% research to learn IW or 9 turns at 100% espionage to steal IW. If Caput (source of most of our income) had a library it would only have taken 6 turns to research IW. A Castle gives a 25% boost in EPs, but we need to know Engineering.

Actually what a trade mission saves us is the turns we would normally be at 0% research and 0% espionage accumulating gold to pay the maintenance cost. IW is taking us a total of 11 turns total to learn because we spent 2 turns at 0%. Trade mission gold means we do not need 2 turns at 0%, so we learn IW 18% faster.

SGOTM 22 - Xteam

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