SGOTM 23 - Turbo Ants

[ZPV]

PPP Superceded by post 1262
PPP, t80-??

Tech
I'm finding it really hard to see past the +50% hammers on 6 chops, however many whips we squeeze out (presumably 1 every 10 turns now), and +3hpt from Bureaucracy. So I propose to research CS even though technically we don't need it.

We'll steal Construction in CEB. We already have enough EPs if I read it right.
I think I'll leave Hatty alive for one more round of stealing - it might be a double steal of Calendar and Theo - but we don't have to make that decision yet. I still hope to be able to trade for TheoCalendar.

First GS: Plan to lightbulb Philosophy, but save it in case we can get Philo another way.

Diplomacy
Give Alex Currency+CoL.
Give Mehmed Monotheism
Check for Mehmed to cancel his deals with Darius every turn.
Check for resource trades every turn.

Civics
OR+Rep

City builds
Paris: HAs, slowly. Save the chops/whips until Buro which is just around the corner. Steal the deer once CEB grows.
SQ: Settler (use the current overflow, then grow to size 4 and 2whip) - Rax
CEB: HA (switch out t82 so we don't go over 19h) 2 pop whip. I'd like to use the overflow to build a missionary (which needs different micro) but that delays Construction until t86. Thoughts? Otherwise an axeman.
Fredburg: Granary-Rax-HAs
Fur City: Missionary (Chop+Whip) - HA (Max growth)
Alexa: Granary (1 whip) - Library (Max growth)
Thebes: Library (3 whip right away) - Lighthouse

War Plans
Detailed in previous posts. Istanbul TBC.

Stopping point:
When we see Istanbul
or something unexpected happens.

 

[WastinTime]

I'd still take a free GLH if we can get it. Maybe Istanbul or Persia would be so kind and build it.

 

[WastinTime]

There's also the Music artist to consider for kicking off our golden age. Might be less stressful on Thebes so it can concentrate on war and research.

If we hope to get Music and maybe CS--I still might fight this--and all the way to Banking before the golden age, we have to be sure we're running 100% research the rest of the game--or at least until our Golden Age starts. And we should not plan to build wealth. Building research is fine. Do we have an income stream to support this? Conquest, trade, and pillage gold? That usually needs a supplement. Possibly missionary failgold? Failgold Parthenon and MoM are nice, but they're coming a bit late. 30-35 turns from now.
Moai is something we could cash in on in about 20-25 turns, but we need to start spreading it around after we connect stone. Moai in Thebes for the extra junk GPP?

 

[WastinTime]

SQ: sesttler. nice plan. I'm fine with only a 2-whip since you only waste 1 turn setting up the whip and 1 turn whipping.

CEB overflow: Moai? forgot, gifting the city. Still had Moai on the brain from previous post

 

[ZPV]

CEB overflow must be a unit, because we're giving the city away.
I don't really want Great Prophet points in Thebes either. Athens looks like a better bet for Moai since its gene pool if already polluted.
I'll try and arrange a little bit of failgold, but I don't really think we're going to struggle too much for gold.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[WastinTime]

Getting way ahead, but since there is no other discussion rt now...

GP Thoughts

GS's: Edu?, Ppress, Chem
GM's: Econ, RepParts(1-2), railroad(4)

Must avoid : Nationalism, maybe Meditation

If no Coal (annoying)
GS: Sci Meth,
2-3 GE: Combustion
(ignoring Plastics/Offshore oil...that's just rude, BSP)

Seems like we could use 6-7 GMs and 3-4 GS
Unlikely we bother with the GEs

I find that realistically 12 GPs are the max we can get in this game's timeframe.
We'll need religion in ~7 GP cities. Pacifism(philo or Paya). Merc(banking) is ideal but not required. Parthenon. 2 golden ages with MoM=24 turns

What often works for me:
Two of those cities are monsters (one with Nat Epic, One with Great Library) producing GP's #2-#5, #11 and #12.
Five of those cities are simple and only produce one GM each (#6 - #10)

Notes:
- We probably want the Music GArt, but not necessary
- Most painful part of the ~24 turns is no slavery. Plan ahead to have units/buildings and $$$ beforehand.
- Start the GAs at 1AD, T115. Get RR on T140. Win the game T141. (maybe add 10 turns to all those for BSP's monkey business)

Going way back to pre-game GP thoughts in post #28. Let's see how it applies now that we know more about this specific game.

It seems like we could squeeze out more like 14-15 (like ZPV is planning) instead of the usual limit of about 12 since we've been given so many super-food sites. This means we should bulb Edu and PPress with GS's along with Chem instead of avoiding Edu to bulb PPress with GMs.

Liberalism is 2700 beakers less than Steam. and we don't need CS, 1200

So let's discuss CS:
We could just wait til the T130+ and bulb CS and then RepParts. Seems like the right thing to do with so many GPs we have planned.

We could research it after we get to Banking/Merc for our Golden Age.
This only leaves Engineering, Gunpowder, and Paper for us to self-research while we wait for our GPs to be born. Then Steel after bulbing Chem.
We'll need to spend sometime finishing techs that we bulb. And we could get Music post-golden age if we didn't use it beforehand. Researching CS post-banking could be faster than waiting for another GM birth. Just because we can get 15 GPs out of 2 golden ages doesn't mean it's the faster way. We might be able to get Railroad after only 20 turns of our GAge. We shouldn't necessarily plan for the full 24 turns of GPP generation.

So, the question is: Can CS actually be worth it to get first (delaying Banking, Music, everything we need for T115 golden age.) Let's see if it pays off:
We could get CS ~T90. I don't think we can get it T89 with 1t anarchy T80, right?
Now we need anarchy again. That leaves 24 turns of Bureau. to make up for the 1200 and 1t anarchy.
- before, I estimated we could average ~30 bpt extra over the entire game, but for T91-115, we can only expect about 18 bpt average. Let's be generous and say 20 for final-bpt of 24. That 576 beakers and again, very generous.
- so the only way to get close is to look at hammers. I'm not sure I like chopping Deer or Fur which leaves only 3 BFC forests + 3 in the 3rd ring. That's 45 + 36 hammers = 81 hammers.
Then we have +3 hpt for 24 turns = 72 hammers
Finally there are the hammers we'd get from whipping. 15 hammers each time. But we'd only whip a couple times.

So I don't see CS paying off before T115. I feel like there are too many techs we need before T115 and very little to do with our beakers after T115 when it's all about bulbing.

edit: P.S. forgot one thing...

 

[WastinTime]

Tech
I'm finding it really hard to see past the +50% hammers on 6 chops, however many whips we squeeze out (presumably 1 every 10 turns now), and +3hpt from Bureaucracy. So I propose to research CS even though technically we don't need it.

short answer from my long post above:

Only adds about ~180 hammers and ~550 beakers between now and T115.
I would go for it if I thought we could get all the other stuff we need by T115.

 

[ZPV]

short answer from my long post above:

Only adds about ~180 hammers and ~550 beakers between now and T115.
I would go for it if I thought we could get all the other stuff we need by T115.

Fair enough. Without the turn of anarchy I'd definitely go for it, but I can see where you're coming from.
I put the hammer count a little higher (2-pop per whip x3 (maybe squeeze a fourth one in as well before Caste), plus an adjustment for the fact that building things in Paris is more attractive).

We've got about 5500 beakers between us and Banking+Aesthetics. 150bpt would do that in 36 turns. We'll easily beat 150bpt when Thebes and Athens are online and in Representation.

So I do think we have the room for either CS or Music. Maybe both, maybe not. Can you tell which one actually helps us more?

 

[Pollina]

Going for Music would let us build NE and HE (and failgold) once we have captured some marble. Music is also useful for border expansions. So for me, Music seems a bit more useful than CS.

 

[ZPV]

OK then, I'll rewrite my plans with:
Metal Casting first. Maybe Aes-Lit after that; maybe Machinery.
Don't delay any chops in Paris. We don't have the worker turns for all of them anyway, but this way we get an extra HA or two sooner.
Give Monotheism away so someone will research Monarchy for us.
Look to set up a double steal of Calendar+Theo from Hatty (unless someone researches the former) later on, so no failgold in CEB or Fur City for now.
I still want GLH in Thebes (I'm a little worried about Moscow or somewhere else uncomfortable building it), but it doesn't need the Library right away any more. I'll look to build one later. It can also contribute more units when we're ready.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Thebes should have a lh asap, especially if we're going to build GLH there.

Berlin will be an excellent HE city. Maybe enough for most of our warring. Hard to know how high to prioritize Berlin now, but if warring is our Critical Path, then it's probably pretty high. Mehmed could complete his second marble quarry any time. Getting HE in Berlin asap might be a very powerful move.

Have we looked carefully at when Mehmed will pop his next GS (for Philo)? That could affect when we want to DoW him.

 

[Pollina]

Joao has a library in Lisbon, but hasn't popped a Great Scientist yet. Should we give him Currency now, so that we can give him CoL+Alpha whenever his GS is born? Or would he build an academy instead of bulbing Philo?

Edit: His library got built ibt 73/74, so his GS won't pop until t91.

 

[WastinTime]

Fair enough. Without the turn of anarchy I'd definitely go for it, but I can see where you're coming from.
I put the hammer count a little higher (2-pop per whip x3 (maybe squeeze a fourth one in as well before Caste), plus an adjustment for the fact that building things in Paris is more attractive).

yea, you're right, I was generous with most estimates, but I blew that one. There probably could be another 100 hammers. I was thinking we wouldn't whip 4 times since we have 4 anger already, but we probably would. And I wasn't thinking clearly about 2-whips and 3whips.

Anyhoo, I like the idea of MC next since it's on our path. Then I always question: forges everywhere? on such a short timeframe? 120h is such a big investment, but I suppose we would. So many of our cities are powerful. It's one advantage of getting MC next. We should be able to get 2-3 happy out of the forge too. Makes it easier to 4-pop whip Moai too

 

[WastinTime]

Joao has a library in Lisbon, but hasn't popped a Great Scientist yet. Should we give him Currency now, so that we can give him CoL+Alpha whenever his GS is born? Or would he build an academy instead of bulbing Philo?

Edit: His library got built ibt 73/74, so his GS won't pop until t91.

good reason to leave Lisbon alone for now. Let's set a reminder or something to make sure Joao has the prereqs in time.
He needs Priesthood (or currency), before we see the birth announcement.
And he needs Medi, Alpha, CoL

 

[ZPV]

If there's one thing you should know about me, it's that I hate forges. Their only purpose is for 4-pop whipping universities for Oxford with OR.
Maybe also Marathon executives...
Genuine high hammer cities (Berlin, Athens, Thebes), OK. Anywhere else? I don't think so unless we really need the

 

[ZPV]

Thebes should have a lh asap, especially if we're going to build GLH there.

Berlin will be an excellent HE city. Maybe enough for most of our warring. Hard to know how high to prioritize Berlin now, but if warring is our Critical Path, then it's probably pretty high. Mehmed could complete his second marble quarry any time. Getting HE in Berlin asap might be a very powerful move.

Have we looked carefully at when Mehmed will pop his next GS (for Philo)? That could affect when we want to DoW him.

The last one was in 2360BC = t41. I don't think we've been watching closely enough to tell whether he's been running scientists most of the time though. He should already have popped one if he had been.

Berlin: Interesting idea. I don't know if I like the GA points but it

Joao has a library in Lisbon, but hasn't popped a Great Scientist yet. Should we give him Currency now, so that we can give him CoL+Alpha whenever his GS is born? Or would he build an academy instead of bulbing Philo?

Philo before an academy. "First gets something" tech lightbulbs come first.
@WT: Got it. No pre-emptive strikes on Lisbon. I still want to scout him to see if his pants are down on t92.

 

[WastinTime]

If there's one thing you should know about me, it's that I hate forges. Their only purpose is for 4-pop whipping universities for Oxford with OR.
Maybe also Marathon executives...
Genuine high hammer cities (Berlin, Athens, Thebes), OK. Anywhere else? I don't think so unless we really need the

I know where you're coming from, I skip forges most of the time except with IND leaders or long games like space. Nowadays I count high food cities as high hammer cities. In fact, some can be considered higher.

However, like I said, this game is short. The more I think about it, you're right. We should figure out if the forge pays back before ~T130 or it's not worth it. That'll be only about 40 turns for the first possible forges and 30 or less turns for something like Istanbul or Persepolis.

I figure we'd whip 16 population over 40 turns in a city like FC or CEB or SQ. This is assuming we don't try to pop a GP there. That would just barely pay for the forge, so the only gain we get is the +hpt which is likely to be only 1 or 2 hpt--maybe 3 in SQ. So something like 40-80 extra hammers plus the extra happy. So it does seem like cities that don't need the happy should pass. It's painful to pay 120h upfront cost to slowly get that back over 30 turns.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Berlin: Interesting idea. I don't know if I like the GA points but it

Athens isn't a bad second choice for HE, misses all those Berlins chops but already has most mines in place, we get it sooner, and you have it scheduled to produce a junk GP.

I'd even consider beelining Literature before MC and building HE without marble, if we're going with Athens. What's our MC urgency, if any? Unit production is still a major slog. Be nice to free that up.

 

[LowtherCastle]

The last one was in 2360BC = t41.

Right, he could have popped one on ~t75. Are we setting him up for that possibility? I think we definitely should and watch for him to pop a GS every turn.

Any chance he'll revolt into castes if we gift him COL?

 

[Pollina]

Any chance he'll revolt into castes if we gift him COL?

Nope. He has 3 cities and won't switch voluntarily. I wonder if we should wait with the Mono gift, and bribe him into anarchy (OR) on DoW+0.