SGOTM 23 - Turbo Ants

[WastinTime]

2. I want to settle NorthCows. I'm not waffling on this like I am on our next tech.

Oh no? Can we at least debate the pros and cons?

Absolutely, I did not mean it like "my way or the highway". I was just saying that's my 1 vote and I'm not changing it.
Let Fred build the settler, the workboat, road and pasture the sheep with our (5th?) worker

 

[WastinTime]

I don't see why we'd run 0% slider, even in an SE. Why not SE with 100% slider too?
If you're going to build libraries anyway, then 100% research is the way to go.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I don't see why we'd run 0% slider, even in an SE. Why not SE with 100% slider too?
If you're going to build libraries anyway, then 100% research is the way to go.

Of course. My point was that there's no reason to fear an economic collapse if our HAs capture too many cities too quickly, because our research could rock and roll even at 0%. Soon enough, though, we generate any needed cash or run merchants or whatever. There's always Moai and we could generate thousands from it if we so choose. Run OrgRel, spam a few missionaries, get 125% multiplier, later run pacifism.

My main point is get Alexandria and Thebes asap and then go on a rampage with a limited number of units, before Ais even know what hit them. I'm not even against building the GLH and the GW might not go as early as one might expect. I was the one who first suggested the 74h into the GW. Alexandra is far more powerful. It's 40cpt*150%b/c*1.2=72 f-bpt as soon as it comes out of resistance, running Representation.

Jesus would need to go immediately to eastern Joao to see if the water tiles are BSP coastal or ocean. If they're ocean, we solve the problem somehow, either by settling the island or by galleys traveling around.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Really my basic idea is this: How to reach the "domination limit" asap, while running a mixed/SE? Except that in this scenario, there is no domination limit, so it could be some form of infinite city expansion, if that's helpful. Plus, that gives us our VC by conquest easy as pie. It's actually just getting back to basics.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I also like letting Fred settle Fredburg. Anyway Hamburg is relatively useless until we have worker-turns for it and some way to expand its culture. Let Fred develop them a bit and then we grab them. Paris only builds one more settler and can focus on CII HAs. FurCity, Stone and CowsN can spam a few Paris cottages while adding some units and we take Egypt asap. By then our war machine will be able to overwhelm anyone of our choosing.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Hatty's GNP is now 104. Do the math.

 

[Mitchum]

Absolutely, I did not mean it like "my way or the highway". I was just saying that's my 1 vote and I'm not changing it.
Let Fred build the settler, the workboat, road and pasture the sheep with our (5th?) worker

Hmm... I have some detailed MM plans for Fredburg. I wonder how much he's willing to pay for them?

 

[Mitchum]

Most of my Conquest experience is on Vanilla where Conquest means killing every AI completely, so forgive me if this is a dumb question but with Domination disabled, what happens if we cap everyone? Do we win by Conquest? If so, that's probably the fastest VC that gives us the most control over timing, right? EDIT: Our power will be so high by the end of the game that we should be able to take just a city or two before the AI is willing to capitulate, right?

If we're going for Conquest, then we can take Joao and Churchill down at the end so they are obvious choices as short and mid-term trading partners.

I doubt we have to go through India or Arabia to get to the Orient so I think Gandhi and Sal are good partners too.

So my proposal is to enable:
Joao - 23 techs until WFYABTA - trades non-military/wonder techs at 40% - Christian
Churchill - 23 techs until WFYABTA - trades non-military/wonder techs at 30% - Christian
Gandhi - 23 techs until WFYABTA - trades non-military/wonder techs at 20% - Hindu
Sal - 16 techs until WFYABTA - trades non-military/wonder techs at 40% - Islam

If we think we can get IW and/or Math sooner if we enable everyone with everything but Alphabet in the short term, I'm fine with that too. (other than Fred, who we don't want to get BW to keep our options open on him).

 

[Mitchum]

Organized = half-priced LHs. I forgot about that!
I also forgot that Charismatic gives +1 with WT's favorite building!

@WT, now I get the point of your CF question. I'm not on the computer with the latest save but I'm assuming that when I did the CF, our warrior got punted one step further from Fred.

I'm fine not building Fredburg. Where would we settle NorthCow? No chance getting that fish from London so do we settle at Cow-E? Shares deer with Paris and allows it to mature one riverside cottage. It also has wine, 6 forests and 3 green hills.

FurCity should go workboat (1 pop whip) -> granary (1 pop whip) -> half-priced LH? -> galleys. We don't have a worker down there to farm the GRiv so we could at least work 2F2C tiles with a LH... well, 1 2F2C tile without a border pop. Gives +1F for the fish too.

What is up with that huge barb city north of Arabia? Is it a massive prize? A red herring? The Orient? Can someone get into BSP's head (scary place to be, I'm sure)?

 

[Mitchum]

Scout: yea, I didn't realize what a long and dangerous trip it would be for him to de-fog Sal-SE. Was just going off memory. Warrior can do that if we see there is a TR path thru Egypt.
Barbs can't spawn between india and persia unless one wanders over there, so you have the option of going back to Persia and trying to explore east. Otherwise, you try to get to China. Maybe follow a scout. Mao's was in that area.
If he dies, you save us maintenance cost eventually.

Any other suggestions? Wait for an escort to the NE? Hang out in an Indian brothel waiting for foreigners to wander in? Wait, do they even have brothels in India? Go to a Persian Brothel instead? Search south of India to see if the Orient happens to be there? My guess is that the Orient is north of India but should we explore south while we have a unit in the area?

 

[WastinTime]

we are prohibited from ever having more than one vassal.

I'd like to include Persia in the tech group. He has 2 silver. I'm also fine with 'enable everyone but Fred.

Cows-E sounds best to me too.

 

[ZPV]

I would like to give almost everyone Writing, but if we have any other small techs on them, hold them back to trade for 10 gold apiece.

I also don't like Fred settling Fredburg. That city is better in our hands, and better than ChurchCows. Double food in the first ring and several available forests is very strong. Stealing the deer from Paris doesn't count as double food.

Tech: I don't really mind. HBR is fine. Otherwise Maths to trade to everyone. If there's one enabler-tech we want to trade around it's Maths.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I don't see any land route to Hatty that would give us TRs with her, so if we can have a TR with her, then there must be a coastal connection to her, right? The question is, can we determine that without actually having a TR with her? She's too far down the list probably right now.

 

[WastinTime]

I don't see any land route to Hatty that would give us TRs with her, so if we can have a TR with her, then there must be a coastal connection to her, right? The question is, can we determine that without actually having a TR with her?

Mitchum can tell us. Can we trade resources now that we have sailing? Can we trade w/ Sal? how about Gandhi!?! Persia?

 

[LowtherCastle]

Mitchum can tell us. Can we trade resources now that we have sailing? Can we trade w/ Sal? how about Gandhi!?! Persia?

Two-way resource trading can occur over ocean tiles in Hatty's culture, but not two-way TRs.

 

[WastinTime]

Two-way resource trading can occur over ocean tiles in Hatty's culture, but not two-way TRs.

ok, but that would mean any two-way TR with Sal or Gandhi means two-way with Hatty.

 

[Mitchum]

We have city TRs with London and Mecca. We have resource trade routes with Fred, Churchill, Sal, Joao, Hatty, Stalin and Alex (not Mao, Mehmed, Gandhi or Darius).

Regarding NorthCows vs. Fredburg, Fredburg is a much better city with two 5F sources, plenty of forests and an MM plan to get it up and running in 17 turns. As ZPV said,

North cows has one decent 4F source and a shared deer with Paris. The problem with shared food with Paris is that Paris is pretty much going to have to give up its cow to StoneCity full time otherwise StoneCity will be a stinker of a city until its borders pop to cover the fish.

So, do we settle the better Fredburg and then settler NorthCow later? Or do we let Fred settle Fredburg for us, self-build one less settler, and start cranking out HAs (or some other unit)?

I can go either way but I'm leaning toward letting Fred settle Fredburg for us so that we can focus on building an army instead of building another settler somewhere.

I'm down with giving everyone except Fred Writing. I'm also fine with Joao, Churchill, Gandhi, Sal and Darius for mid to long-term trading partners.

 

[Mitchum]

FYI, the top 5 cities are:

1. London - 5 pops
2. Thebes - 5 pops
3. Alexandria - 4 pops
4. Delhi - 6 pops
5. Athens - 3 Pops
?. Mecca - ?? Pops

It seems like we should have an internal TR with Thebes if one were possible, right? Or does Mecca take priority since it's further away (and possibly bigger?)?

 

[WastinTime]

North cows has one decent 4F source and a shared deer with Paris. The problem with shared food with Paris is that Paris is pretty much going to have to give up its cow to StoneCity full time otherwise StoneCity will be a stinker of a city until its borders pop to cover the fish.

In 2 turns, Paris borders cover the fish. (or 3 turns w/ anarchy)

 

[LowtherCastle]

ok, but that would mean any two-way TR with Sal or Gandhi means two-way with Hatty.

Brilliantino!

We have city TRs with London and Mecca. We have resource trade routes with Fred, Churchill, Sal, Joao, Hatty, Stalin and Alex (not Mao, Mehmed, Gandhi or Darius).

Excellent! That means our galleys can reach Alexandria, unless I'm missing something.

I'm down with giving everyone except Fred Writing. I'm also fine with Joao, Churchill, Gandhi, Sal and Darius for mid to long-term trading partners.

How many negmods are we going to get on Writing?

Gift to - Doesn't like gift
==============
Stalin - Darius
Gandhi - Mehmed
Gandhi - Mao
Gandhi - Sal
Mehmed - Gandhi
Alex - Hatty
Hatty - Alex
Hatty - Joao

Do we care?


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