SGOTM 23 - Turbo Ants

[ZPV]

Okay, so what about finishing the granary at 22/36 and then adding 14f? Is that only 14/38?

Yes. If you could run 13f for a turn you'd go:
22/36 Granary done
35/36
31/38 (18 max granary food, + 14-1 = 13 overflow).
EDIT: Or avoid growth for a turn, to get 32/38.

That compares with 28/38 running 14f straight, but the latter grows to size 9 a turn sooner and works one extra tile as a result.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Thx, ZPV, and sorry you had to repeat that. You already introduced me to that avoid growth technique this very SG.

 

[Mitchum]

That last point is worth repeating. If you just grow, you will be behind 4F but you will have had +1 turn of an extra pop. Presumably you'd get that +1 turn back sometime in the future when the +4F allows one turn sooner growth.

 

[LowtherCastle]

That last point is worth repeating. If you just grow, you will be behind 4F but you will have had +1 turn of an extra pop. Presumably you'd get that +1 turn back sometime in the future when the +4F allows one turn sooner growth.

RIght.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Ran into a problem at the end -- I can't figure out how to get Lisbon to produce a GP in time. So I changed things up a bit. The new plan builds the Parthenon in Lisbon instead of Athens and Athens creates the 2nd GP for GA#2 (T111) instead of Paris, which allows Paris to grow to p11 for a 1300 Trade Mission (yay! unexpected bonus!). Still have to iron out some details. Tomorrow.

Adding the GM for a trade mission on T110 turns out to have been more problematic than it first appeared.

We'll also have a bunch of hammer cities and may not even need another missionary, although I'll plan for one anyway.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Well, after all that, this is the best I can do:

 200 T105 GS Alexa GA#2
 300 T110 GM Istan Trade Mission (T112)
 400 T111 GP Athen GA#2 
 500 T113 GS Alexa Chem
 600 T118 GM Munic Econ
 700 T119 GS Paris Educ
 800 T120 GM Hambu RR
 900 T121 GS Alexa PP
1000 T122 GM Thebe RR

Istanbul also can't squeeze out a second GP in that time scale. So we end up single-bulbing chemistry and education and only triple-bulbing railroad. That gets us a 1300g trade mission on T112.

 

[ZPV]

Looks good to me. I guess Lisbon's job after Parthenon will be to grow as big as possible.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[WastinTime]

With PPress going that late you have a bit of a problem. You really want it T120 so you can bulb first and then finish it with lots of overflow.

In the T121 case, you have to figure out how much to put into PPress and if you come up 1 beaker short you'll lose a whole turn. On top of that, the real problem is that we're doing 1000+ bpt so you'll have to run a turn at 400 or whatever small amt is needed to complete PPress. That could be very difficult if you're carrying overflow. In fact, now that I think about it, you're carrying tons of overflow into RepParts. You can't bulb Press 121 without significant delay to Repparts/RR.

 

[WastinTime]

And I still can't believe we can't make better use of Thebes. Alexa is going 3 times and Thebes only once. Thebes is stronger.

Maybe it's ok to waste Thebes as long as we meet our GP deadlines. In that case, can you just switch Alexa and Hambu so we get the PP-GS earlier?

 

[WastinTime]

Question: (may or may not be relevant to our game)

Can 2 GPs be born on the same turn? I never saw that, but it seems possible.
Example: Paris is at 600gpp, Hamburg 699gpp. They both add 110gpp.
Paris has priority and goes first for the 700 GP, but hamburg already has 809. Would we get the 800 GP born the same turn?

 

[Mitchum]

@WT

Yes, two GPs can be born on the same turn. Jesusin used to do it all the time in his Cultural games. At least that's what I can remember but be careful...

The thing about looking at the GP plan in isolation is that you don't know what else is happening in each city. Maybe LC has one of the potential GP farms cranking out units. Keep in mind that Conquest seems to be our critical path at the moment, not research. So speeding up Rep Parts/RR won't speed up out finish date...

@LC Can you please post your GPP plan in a bit more detail? I may be able to figure out a different solution to the puzzle.

 

[Pollina]

Can 2 GPs be born on the same turn? I never saw that, but it seems possible.
Example: Paris is at 600gpp, Hamburg 699gpp. They both add 110gpp.
Paris has priority and goes first for the 700 GP, but hamburg already has 809. Would we get the 800 GP born the same turn?

Yep. That would work.

 

[ZPV]

And I still can't believe we can't make better use of Thebes. Alexa is going 3 times and Thebes only once. Thebes is stronger.

Maybe it's ok to waste Thebes as long as we meet our GP deadlines. In that case, can you just switch Alexa and Hambu so we get the PP-GS earlier?

Thebes might possibly be able to pop 2 largeish GPs if it skips the otherwise very useful Hanging Gardens. Aside from that, it's a comparison of what we were trying to do before, which was grow unimpeded for 10+ turns before starting our golden age, vs starting GP production right away. Alexa, with its free +8 raw GPP/turn can adjust to that much better than anywhere else, because Great Library is available right away.

 

[LowtherCastle]

And I still can't believe we can't make better use of Thebes. Alexa is going 3 times and Thebes only once. Thebes is stronger.

Maybe it's ok to waste Thebes as long as we meet our GP deadlines. In that case, can you just switch Alexa and Hambu so we get the PP-GS earlier?

There are two problems hampering Thebes: building aqueduct-HG and growth. Alexa doesn't have that problem. It's starting now as a high-powered GP farm.

I looked at building aqueduct-HG elsewhere but struck out. It requires 250 base-h. Lisbon needs to build the Parthenon so Athens can pop the GA#2 GP so Paris can grow to pop11 by T112 for the 1300g trade mission. And so on. Complicated. Even building Parth in Lisbon is forcing me to move Moai away from Oporto (insufficient worker turns), probably to CEB, which will cost us a couple hundred gold on Moai but get the money sooner, which is probably a good trade-off. I'll try to get the gold back on another wonder.

Anyway, I forgot to ask you the question you answered. Yes, we can switch Alexa and Hamburg, no probs. Idon't see any useful way to double up GPs in one turn.

How's this?

 200 T105 GS Alexa GA#2
 300 T110 GM Istan Trade Mission
 400 T111 GP Athen GA#2 
 500 T113 GS Alexa Chem
 600 T118 GM Munic Econ
 700 T119 GS Paris Educ
 800 T120 GS Alexa PP
 900 T121 GM Hambu RR
1000 T122 GM Thebe RR

 

[LowtherCastle]

Another example of the complexity.

If we want to DoW Daris T103 after revoting to CS and bribing him there, which we do, then we need any Islamic missionaries completed by T103, whipped T102, start building T101. That can happen in precisely one city: Fredburg. At the expense of delaying the Hamburg workboat 2 turns, costing Fredburg so much food, throwing my GP planning out of whack.

That means we'll have one chance to spread Islam to Munich, unless Sal happens to spread to Hamburg for us by T109 or T110.

 

[LowtherCastle]

@WT

Yes, two GPs can be born on the same turn. Jesusin used to do it all the time in his Cultural games. At least that's what I can remember but be careful...

The thing about looking at the GP plan in isolation is that you don't know what else is happening in each city. Maybe LC has one of the potential GP farms cranking out units. Keep in mind that Conquest seems to be our critical path at the moment, not research. So speeding up Rep Parts/RR won't speed up out finish date...

@LC Can you please post your GPP plan in a bit more detail? I may be able to figure out a different solution to the puzzle.

You asked for it. The first sheet has city MM which evolves downward. Some of the city MMs include GPs. The second sheet is all the rest of the GP counts, which also evolve downward. Except when they don't....

It's anything but automated and evven where I use some equations, that can be inconsistent.

Your mission, Jim, should you decide to accept it, is to survive to live another day. This website will self-destruct in 5 seconds.

 

[LowtherCastle]

@Mitchum: Other assumptions

T103 Start GA, revolt to Pacifism + Castes
T109 HG complete, +1 pop everywhere
T110 Parthenon complete
T110 Banking teched (conservative assumption, according to WT's estimates)
T110 Revolt to Mercantilism + Vassalage

.

 

[WastinTime]

you're forgetting to revolt to vassalage

 

[LowtherCastle]

Okay, theHamburg GM on T121 is fine with an extra farm. LEt's hope there will be worker-turns when I get there...

This is like building the Tower of Babble, around and around and around.

 

[Mitchum]

Your mission, Jim, should you decide to accept it, is to survive to live another day. This website will self-destruct in 5 seconds.

Wow. Sorry I asked. I knew this was a complicated turnset but your use of Excel probably isn't helping matters.

I don't even know where to begin. I know that there is so much more outside of this spreadsheet that you're tying to track so it's not possible to look at the GPP plan in isolation. However, I do think we need to get it into a format that others can use so that we hire the right number AND type of specialist in each city so that we get what we want when we need it. I'll take a crack at working on this over the next day or so.

Or, you could just play until all relevant GPs are born and then only you need to understand the GPP plan.