SGOTM 23 - Xteam

[Dhoomstriker]

Okay, as a compromise, how about we go with moving the Scout 1 NE GH For on Turn 1, like Jersey Joe showed, and then plan to have it head back westward.

The Missionary can aim to be 1 S of the Wheat or 3 S of the Wheat by the end of Turn 5. The Scout can aim to be somewhere to the north-west of there. The exact location of where the Scout will end up is a point on which we can decide upon as the Missionary heads in a somewhat southern direction after moving 1 W to the G For.

After moving 1 NE GH For, the Scout won't need to go SW > SW, as the Missionary will aim to explore that area on Turn 6 or Turn 7 (the Missionary can move 1 square and back to its spawn-busting position without disrupting spawn-busting, as spawn-busting positioning only matters for a unit's placement at the end of the turn) and we could instead move the Scout W > W to the G For, to give us the most flexibility for getting the Scout to the best position possible to the west of our Cultural Borders by the end of Turn 5.

 

[pigswill]

Sounds fine to me. Scout NE, next turn SW>SW to check the coast down there, followed by NW>W. Missionary W this turn, then SW>pause. Warrior NE next turn. That gets us to the end of Turn 2.

 

[Jersey Joe]

Okay, as a compromise, how about we go with moving the Scout 1 NE GH For on Turn 1, like Jersey Joe showed, and then plan to have it head back westward.

The Missionary can aim to be 1 S of the Wheat or 3 S of the Wheat by the end of Turn 5. The Scout can aim to be somewhere to the north-west of there. The exact location of where the Scout will end up is a point on which we can decide upon as the Missionary heads in a somewhat southern direction after moving 1 W to the G For.

After moving 1 NE GH For, the Scout won't need to go SW > SW, as the Missionary will aim to explore that area on Turn 6 or Turn 7 (the Missionary can move 1 square and back to its spawn-busting position without disrupting spawn-busting, as spawn-busting positioning only matters for a unit's placement at the end of the turn) and we could instead move the Scout W > W to the G For, to give us the most flexibility for getting the Scout to the best position possible to the west of our Cultural Borders by the end of Turn 5.

I would like to see the Scout at least move 1E GH For before turning back. Moving 1E will expose a number of tiles since there is water to the east and southeast of that tile.

Also, should we not find out if there is a south easterly route out of France?

What about EPs? Right now they all go to Churchill since he is the only AI we have met. When we meet a mainland based AI should we target the EPs on that AI, or are we going to gift Churchill a city?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Scout NE, next turn SW>SW to check the coast down there, followed by NW>W.

If we do all of those moves and there are squares out to the far west that need to be spawn-busted, we might not make it to them in time, particularly if a Forest grows at an inconvenient spot.

In the test game, the last move reveals a single GH For square.

To be sure that we get the Scout to the west with plenty of time to get into a good position, I'm going to suggest that the Scout make more of a beeline to the west after T1, something like:
T1 NE GH For (1 E of the G Fur For)
T2 NW G Riv > NW G Riv For (1 S of the G Riv Deer For)
T3 NW G Riv > W G Riv For (1 SW of Paris)
T4 Now we'll have two paths for heading westward around the G Riv Fur For, in case a Forest grows somewhere
T5 Get into spawn-busting position

 

[pigswill]

We don't know what's out there so we don't know the best site for city#2 or if spawn busting west of Paris is the best option or whether the scout is better spawn busting the south or south east. In the test game missionary could spawn bust west with scout covering the south west but we don't know if the real game is the same and if we don't explore we won't find out.

 

[Cactus Pete]

"Spawn busting is nice but so is exploration. I'd reckon that most of the time its better to explore with a scout. Worker stealing needs a nearby worker to be stolen: first find your victim." Concur. Madrid could be to our west with a vulnerable worker. Dhoom's compromise, sending scout onto the forested hill and then west while bringing the missionary to the south sounds good to me.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I'm not interested in spawn-busting "the best site" but instead in maximizing spawn-busting with the units that we have available to us. With the compromise proposal, we retain flexibility with where the Scout ends up spawn-busting.

Do note that wherever a 2-movement-point unit ends up spawn-busting, that unit can spend later turns moving 1 square away onto flat land in any direction and then 1 square back, for additional exploration later.

What we can tell so far is that one unit could be used to fully spawn-bust the south and that unit could be the Missionary, which would then be relatively safe from all but Barb units who wander very far, and we'd have advance visibility of when such a Barb unit might be coming.

What we aren't certain is how many units it would take to fully spawn-bust the west plus south-west area.

What we can do is try to be flexible with where the Scout ends up, which is why I have suggested the compromise for the Scout's movements... the Scout will explore 1 NE to the GH For to see a bit more around the Fish and then it will be up to the Missionary to reveal more terrain, while the Scout gets into position to spawn-bust either the west or the south-west, getting himself there ASAP through our Cultural Borders to give us the most flexibility with where the Scout ends his turn on Turn 5.

The Scout could end up to the west or south-west, depending upon how much terrain the Missionary reveals.

 

[pigswill]

Its worth remembering that forests can grow inside our borders as well as outside.

In the meantime I think we agree on scout NE and missionary W this turn. Maybe get this turn finished then continue debating whether its better to have less initial exploration and better chance of T5 spawnbusting or more exploration anda bit less flexibility on T5.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

This was the PPP I suggested and I haven't seen anything that contradicts it so I will go ahead this evening unless anyone shouts before then:-

t1 Missionary 1W G Forest
t1 Scout 1NE G Hill

Advance turn, take screenshots, stop and upload.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Green light from me on the PPP. Kindly remember to deselect our tech selection next turn, too, to save yourself a step to remember later.

Its worth remembering that forests can grow inside our borders as well as outside.

That's true.

What I aim for is general consensus on our goals. We can plan all that we want with specific details, but then reality (or, at least the game's reality) can get in the way of the precise implementation of the plan.

But, with general consensus on a concept of what our goals are and how we'll try to implement them, plans can adapt without changing the goals. Or, if we find that our goals can no longer be met, it's a strong indication to stop play and ask for feedback before playing further, so that we can re-evaluate what our new goals should be, given the changed situation.

Specific details can be helpful if the game's situation doesn't change or to at least illustrate one way to meet our goals; specific details also invite dialogue, so that people can brainstorm on ways for how to improve those specific details, all with the knowledge that the specific details of our plans may have to be altered when the situation in the game changes.

For example, we might be content with using 8 Axemen against 3 Archer defenders (even those numbers are a bit risky and I'd generally prefer to go in with 10 vs 3), but if 2 more Archers get moved into the City, our goal of attacking the City at the current time should be re-evaluated, as the specifics of the situation would have changed sufficiently that our plan may be in serious jeopardy of failing.

I'd prefer to see our Active Player enabled with the thoughts of multiple players and our decided-upon goals as our targets for a given playing session, rather than having a totally-scripted set of actions. That said, at some points of the game, there are clearly stronger ways of doing things (such as the order of improving our Resources with our first Worker) that we can test in advance and script in advance, so yes, there will be some times where robotic action is called for. But, at the same time, I'd expect our players to be using their brains to their full capacities, thinking of other things that are important or relevant in the real game that we couldn't have thought about or planned for.

Maybe get this turn finished then continue debating whether its better to have less initial exploration and better chance of T5 spawnbusting or more exploration and a bit less flexibility on T5.

We may adapt to doing both if the Missionary reveals hardly any land to the west. Or, we may be forced into beelining up there with our Scout if there is a lot of land to the west. Since we seem to have relative consensus on wanting to spawn-bust, exactly how we go about it can adapt as we learn more information, but knowing up front that we may have to sacrifice a bit of short-term exploration in order to meet our spawn-busting goal, it won't come as an unwelcome surprise later if we're forced down that path. Does that line of thinking make sense?

 

[pigswill]

I agree with you. I guess my issue is that we don't have a lot of information at the moment. One of my cardinal assumptions is that BSP will have done stuff to make this game significantly more difficult than standard monarch and I'd like to find out what's he's done at an early stage so we can adjust.

 

[Cactus Pete]

PPP fine with me.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Moves made and turn advanced.

State Religion Change: Churchill (England) from 'no State Religion' to 'Christianity'

Spoiler Scout :

Spoiler Missionary reveals Stone :

Spoiler Demographics :

Spoiler Top cities :

Spoiler Victory conditions :

 

[Noble Zarkon]

As for our general plans - I agree with fog busting but as soon as we can we need to replace the scout with a warrior and let him go exploring. We need to find Istanbul and the Orient as well as sizing up our opponents.

 

[pigswill]

Equally significant is that missionary reveals a west coast, making due west potentially easy to spawn bust.

The map continues to look quite european. I'd like to check out the south west very soon, two particular issues: are the 'Pyrenees' continuous from coast to coast, is Isabella the other side?

Looks like missionary SW>S, scout SW>SW (resuming the debate).

There are quite a few waterside civs (we're 8th in land area).

 

[Cactus Pete]

If we're going to move the scout further west (and I'm in favor of that, after 2SW), then don't we need to move the missionary SW>SE to get him in fog busting position in time?

What's the warrior's next move?

 

[Jersey Joe]

Here is a Test Game as of 3920BC.
It incorporates what has been revealed and my latest attempt at fog gazing.
Churchill has been converted from Judaism to Christianity.
I added the Iberian Peninsula and replaced the Netherlands with Portugal.
Joao has a 25% discount on worker builds so I choose him for worker stealing practice.
I still need to add more land and get the 'F7" religious percents to agree with the real game.
Edit: Added Oracle and Pyramids.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Here is a Test Game as of 3920BC.
It incorporates what has been revealed and my latest attempt at fog gazing.

Great work, thanks!

Using the terrain in the test game, we'd have to go:
T2 Warrior moves 1 NE G For
T3 Warrior moves 1 E G For
in order to reveal all possible big fat cross squares that could be used with the G Cow, i.e. in order to reveal the square that is 2 NE + 2 E of the G Cow.


As for the Scout, moving SW + SW won't buy us any additional info, assuming that we'll have a unit spawn-busting from the GH For that is 1 W of there (3 S of the G Riv Wheat). Whichever unit spawn-busts from that GH For can later move 1 E G (the same square as we'd be on by moving the Scout SW + SW now) > 1 W GH For (to return to its spawn-busting position), which would mean exploring the exact same thing as going SW + SW, just doing it on Turn 6 or Turn 7, giving us plenty of time to get the same info before we'll build Settler 2.

If we wanted to argue for extra exploration with the Scout that we can do now but not later, I'd expect to see us arguing for moving the Scout:
T2 Scout moves 1 SW G > 1 S G (1 SW of the Fish)
which would reveal the square 2 SE of that location and which we couldn't use our southern spawn-buster to safely reveal without leaving room for Barbs to spawn to the west of the southern spawn-buster's planned spawn-busting location.

a 25% discount on worker builds

In most cases, an AI won't get that bonus when building its initial Warrior unless it is already getting an extra Hammer (say, from having settled on a PH square), in which case it would be getting 2 extra Hammers per turn.

I.e. Average is working a G For square while building a Worker, netting you:
City Centre 2 F + 1 H
G For 2 F + 1 H
Citizen Food consumption -2 F
Total: 2 F + 2 H
The 25% bonus applies only to Hammers and then gets floored:
Hammers into a Worker = 2 + floor ( 2 * 1.25 ) = 2 + floor ( 2.50 ) = 2 + 2 = 4 Hammers per turn, which is the same amount that any player will get when working a G For square.

Compare that with settling on top of a PH square and working a P For square:
City Center 2 F + 2 H
P For 1 F + 2 H
Citizen Food consumption -2 F
Total: 1 F + 4 H
Hammers into a Worker = 1 + floor ( 4 * 1.25 ) = 1 + floor ( 5.00 ) = 1 + 5 = 6 Hammers per turn


I'm going to suggest that we go with:
T2 Missionary 1 SW G Stone (which in the test game reveals 10 squares) > pause
T2 Warrior 1 NE G For
then stop play and use that info to inform our next actions, including deciding how much leeway we have to move the Scout.

We shouldn't have to immediately beeline the south-east with our Missionary, so moving to the G Stone should be fine, but after that, it will partially depend upon how much water or land we've revealed by moving to the G Stone square as to when we will need to send the Missionary to the south-east.

 

[pigswill]

The city spawnbusts at least 2 tiles in each direction (?3 ?4) so there's no need for the missionary to move any direction east or southeast because spawn busting is done by the city.
The most important issue at the moment is that a missionary is completely defenceless and gets killed by the first wolf it meets. Therefore the priority is to discover if the scout can be in a position at the end of T4 to stop any animals spawning south of the missionary ( missionary and city spawnbust all land tiles tiles north, east and west).
Scout and missionary both have three turns of movement before the end of T4 which is enough time for exploration.

In the meantime I agree about moving missionary SW to stone and warrior NE, pause and screenshot before deciding on scout and missionary's moves this turn.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

As a suggestion, perhaps we can try to stick to the terminology of Culture-busting for what our City does and spawn-busting for what our units do, as the way in which they perform the "busting" is a bit different from each other.

I'm pretty sure that our target turn for getting into spawn-busting position is the end of Turn 5 (with Turn 0 being the first turn), to coincide with when Cultural Borders expand for non-Creative Civs who settle on Turn 0 (AIs don't move their capitals, so that rule applies to all of the AIs in a non-World-Built game). If you can show evidence that it is the end of Turn 4, then please give us an example test game showing as such, but my repeated testing has shown that we have until the end of Turn 5 to get into position.

Since we all seem to love images, here's an image showing what our Culture will do for us.

Spoiler :