SGOTM 23 - Xteam

Goodness me, never knew that before: animals spawn at the start of T6! We have an extra movement turn to have spawn busters in place at the end of turn 5.

Couple of points re spawn busting diagram above:

i) Do we know if culture busting works across water, culture itself doesn't spread overseas (we're relying on this to keep the cow tile).

ii) Land-tiles (if not mountains) can spawn animals 3W of southern spawn busting spot (and 3S of 'possible spawn busting location')

I would suggest that to confirm reliability of proposed spawn busting spots we need to clear the south western fog. We have enough turns to do so.

edit: Is it that there are two seperate mechanisms: fog-busting and spawn-busting. With fog busting no barb unit or city can spawn in an unfogged area, with spawn busting no barb unit can spawn within two tiles of another unit (but cities can if the tile is fogged). City culture automatically fog-busts 1 tile outside the current culture borders. This would answer point i) but would leave point ii) outstanding.
 
animals spawn at the start of T6!
I suppose that it makes sense from a game design perspective, to first give every Civ a chance to have its Cultural Borders expand and only then populate the map with Barb Animals.

Barb Animals have a high rate of not walking toward a square that is adjacent to Cultural Borders (unless they have nowhere else to move), and they would get ejected by expanding Cultural Borders, so there's a certain logic to it given how Barb Animals work and given how AIs are programmed to settle on Turn 0 in place (although I don't know what happens on such a crowded map where some AIs can't settle in place).


i) Do we know if culture busting works across water,
What you do when you want to see the effects of an AI's Culture-busting, you replace their City with your City and give that City the same amount of Culture. Try it out and you'll see that yes, Culture-busting occurs across of the water. I used our test game and our City at London's location with its first Cultural Border expansion to come up with the diagram.

I tried the 100-Culture Cultural Border expansion for London, but we didn't get any additional spawn-busting of squares in the diagram (there might be more spawn-busting on the coast to our north-east, but we're not yet sure if the real game's coast will match the test game's coast up there yet, so I didn't show as much in the diagram). Basically, don't count on any more useful Culture-busting in the nearby area from England (unless our gambit is wrong and England isn't on an island).


culture itself doesn't spread overseas (we're relying on this to keep the cow tile).
It will spread over water 2 squares deep. It will spread onto other landmasses' land only if those landmasses are within the big fat cross of a City.

If Culture already exists overseas, though, then it seems that Culture can break this rule of not spreading onto other landmasses' land. So, for example, if we had settled in place, had settled City 2 located 2 W of the G Cow, and then temporarily gifted City 2 to England before recapturing it, England's Culture would be able to spread to our side of the water wherever England had owned Culture from having temporarily owned City 2. I make this claim by having played the test game forward with England on our landmass, then having World-Built London's Culture down to 1, making England be on another landmass via the World Builder, only to find London's Culture covering our side of the water once London's Culture had expanded again. For practical purposes, if England is on an island, this fact shouldn't affect us in any way, unless we were to gift England a City on our north coast.


ii) Land-tiles (if not mountains) can spawn animals 3W of southern spawn busting spot (and 3S of 'possible spawn busting location')
I believe that's why Cactus Pete (I think that it was him) suggested putting the Missionary at the southern spawn-busting position, since it is more isolated and also since 2-move Barb Units can't sneak up on our Missionary there (assuming that the square 1 SW of the southern spawn-busting position really is a Peak, and it looks like a Peak to me).

Note that all Barb units, including Barb Animals, also act as spawn-busters, so if a Barb Animal did come toward our southern spawn-buster's location and if it was our Missionary and thus our Missionary had to retreat, at least the Barb Animal would take over most of the spawn-busting for us in that region, depending upon where it ended its turn each turn.


With fog busting no barb unit or city can spawn in an unfogged area, with spawn busting no barb unit can spawn within two tiles of another unit (but cities can if the tile is fogged).
All of that is correct.

Theoretically, one single square that is not unfogged can have a Barb City spawn at it, and I've seen such a thing happen, but the entire landmass needs a large total number of unfogged squares to exist. If Barb Cities already exist, that total number needs to be even higher. With so many AIs in our game, there will already be a small chance of seeing Barb Cities, and for every pre-settled Barb City that exists (one reason for pre-settling AI Cities could be to hide the fact that Barb Cities exist on the map, since there's supposedly a way to tell how many Barb Cities exist prior to the AIs having settled their Cities), the chance of yet another Barb City appearing goes down, since, for another Barb City to appear, there would need to be yet another large amount of unfogged squares out there.


City culture automatically fog-busts 1 tile outside the current culture borders.
For flat land, yes, but there are a couple of extra rules that fit in with the rules of visibility that units have.

Hills, which can be seen two squares away by a unit or by Culture, (and, by extension, Peaks which are two squares away--maybe even three squares away for Peaks--I am not certain) can be Culture-busted simply by having a clear path between a square with our Culture and that Hills/Peak square (i.e. no Forest/Jungle/Hills/Peak blocking the direct view). The GH For that is 2 SW + 1 W of the G Riv Wheat is one such example in the diagram, although that square may not be a Hills square in the real game.

Water also can be "seen across" for two squares, which is why England's Culture is already Culture-busting the G For that is 1 N of the G Stone.
 
The city spawnbusts at least 2 tiles (Are you sure of this? Thought it was just one tile from culture border, unless a defogged hill or over water.) in each direction (?3 ?4) so there's no need for the missionary to move any direction east or southeast because spawn busting is done by the city.

I'm good with having the warrior move NE and the missionary onto stone and pause. Good with scout SW>S too.
 
Game uploaded if anyone wants to fog gaze.
:thumbsup:

The Scout can move 1E GH For, and make it back to the hill 3 south of the wheat by the end of turn 5. The hill where the scout is currently is a potential build site. Moving the scout 1E lets us better assess this potential. How long will it be before we a second chance to look further east over there?
 
Okay, the new screenshot reveals a situation that I certainly did not expect: there's hardly any land to the west. This fact can make our spawn-busting a whole lot less risky: we have the option to keep our Missionary within our Cultural Borders, allowing our Scout to move 1 E GH For, as Jersey Joe has suggested, then going with having the Scout be our southern spawn-buster.

The Missionary's target square to end Turn 5 on will be the G For that is 1 S of the G Riv Fur For. Unfortunately, that square has 3 Forests around it, so we'd prevent a Forest from growing there. But, my rule of thumb is only to avoid blocking Forest regrowth when all else is equal, and leaving our Missionary outside of our Cultural Borders just to get a possible Forest growing is not equal to having our Missionary hiding safely within our Cultural Borders.

:newyear: EDIT: To illustrate:
Spoiler :
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Notice that we have a backup plan in place for each unit in case of Forest growth.


The Warrior would need to move 1 E G For in order to reveal the full big fat cross for the Cow, after which we can go Worker hunting.


Be sure to check the F11 Culture view after our units have moved to see if we can spot any nearby AIs.


I did some testing and Barb Animals can appear on squares with Resources on them but cannot move to squares with Resources on them. So, we do need to spawn-bust the G Stone square, even if a Barb Animal wouldn't be able to move to that square after spawning there and moving away.
 
Okay, the new screenshot reveals a situation that I certainly did not expect: there's hardly any land to the west.
I thought this might be the case - we are definitely in Europe with the Iberian Peninsula to the South of us and England on an Island to the North.
 
Lack of land to the west is consistent with the Europe hypothesis.

Missionary 1S of western fur leaves one tile fogged even after border pops. Missionary on top of western fur covers this square (but obviously leaves fogged tiles to the south.

I suspect that realistically to fog/spawn bust all the south and west is going to need another unit but we need to explore a bit more first.
 
I played a few turns from Jersey Joe's latest test map (:goodjob:) and even after England's border pop the extreme NW tile was still fogged.

One option we could consider is that warrior can move SE/S (after next move E to reveal potential bfc for fish/cow/hill city). This would free up the scout to explore south west and have more flexibility in spawn busting at the end of T5.
 
I played a few turns from Jersey Joe's latest test map (:goodjob:) and even after England's border pop the extreme NW tile was still fogged.
Did you capture London and expand its Cultural Borders once?


All units (our units, AI units, and even Barb units) count as spawn-busters.

All squares that are made visible by any Civ's Culture counts as being unfogged in terms of both preventing Barb units from spawning and preventing Barb Cities from appearing.
 
If no-one else wants to step in I could play a couple of turns.
 
PPP (end of T2)

Scout 1E (nice to see more, worst case scenario is south west beasties but that's not guaranteed)

Missionary 1S
 
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