SGOTM 23 - Xteam

[Folket]

I think we have some things to discuss. Are we gambling to much on a 86% chance of the spy being successful? If we fail to take London we are whipping Paris and XO Cognac to hard.

Mine iron is superior from an economy standpoint but it might force us to make peace with Fredrick sooner.

 

[Jersey Joe]

I do not understand the Alex thing. Please elaborate.

Basically it has to do with AI behavior. If you do not ask Alex every turn to attack Berlin, he could very easily get distracted and change his focus to something else. It might not be very bad he could instead direct his efforts to attacking a German city other than Berlin. However, he might also decide to go and explore the Great Wall.

So asking Alex to attack Berlin every turn, keeps his focus on the war.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Keep our Warrior 1 on the G Riv For that is 2 NE of Orleans (1 E of the Fish) for two turns then spend one turn SE.

I suggest that we do something differently, given the mini-stack of Frederick's that we've seen.

In the test game, when I had stayed on the G For that is 1 S of the G Sheep, it was "too late" once I already saw such a stack and it made its way toward Orleans.

On the plus side, it looks as though that stack had most recently moved 1 NE.

I don't know what the best thing to do will be, but I'd probably suggest moving 1 NW G For and staying there, at least until it looks as though the stack is certainly going for Orleans, at which point we might try moving to the G Sheep and then even 1 E of there to the G For that is 1 W of the G Riv Sheep, to see if doing so might lure that stack toward Warrior 1 and away from Orleans.

But, if Orleans doesn't seem to be the target, staying on the G For that is 1 NW (1 W of the G Sheep and 1 E of the Fish) might be the saftest play.

The whole mine thing outside of Orleans seems to be a waste of time. That mine contributed nothing.

Are we perhaps able to get 2 Galleys out of Orleans by using 1-pop-whipping each time and 20 manually-earned Hammers plus a second Forest Chop?

If yes, that Mine could be the way to make it happen.

We then fill up the 4th Galley with 2 Units that get whipped out of Lyons, be it an Axeman and a Chariot or else 2 Chariots if the Axeman can't arrive in time to get on the other Galley.

With 1-pop-whipping, manually-earned Hammers become important, and I don't think that the Iron Mine can get online fast enough to make up for the GH Mine being a weaker square.

I don't really feel comfortable with abandoning the Mine on the GH until we've tried out 1-pop-whipping 2 Galleys from Orleans.

If we switch from the Fish to the GH Mine on Turns 68 and 69, then we can 1-pop-whip Galley 3 on Turn 70 and 1-pop-whip Galley 4 on Turn 72 using the second Forest Chop that arrives on Turn 70.

If we can 1-pop-whip some Units out of Lyons, then that places us at a possible Turn 73 attack.

The sooner that we can attack London (or Hamburg if our Spy dies, or even London without the Spy if our stack is big enough and Churchill doesn't have a lot of Units in London), the sooner that we can start healing our Units and the sooner that they can begin the next attack.

It seems like a turn 75 invasion of London is more likely.

Teleportation can get our Galley 2 into position for a Turn 73 attack, if we whip Galley 2 out of XO Cognac on Turn 67.

I do not get the micro with avoiding growth and whipping later in Paris to work well.

In what way did it not work well?

Turn 62
Avoid Growth ON
Build Spy

Turn 63
Avoid Growth OFF
Switch to Barracks
2-pop-whip Barracks

Turn 64
Avoid Growth ON
Build Axeman

Turn 65
Avoid Growth OFF
Switch to Spy
2-pop-whip Spy

We come out ahead in Food and Hammers on Turn 66. But, it's arguable that if we don't Avoid Growth on Turn 64 that we'd be able to hire an extra Scientist at Size 4 on Turn 65 instead of being at Size 3. The Turn 62 Avoid Growth ON defintely helps, though, unless we forget to turn Avoid Growth Off on Turn 63.


I can't tell from the PPP what's going on with our Research and our Espionage, as there's confusion about when we're researching which tech. However, I'd like to make sure that we earn enough Espionage to be able to perform a Support City Revolt Mission on Turn 73 with only a 40% Stationary bonus.


I'm not overly concerned about the minor efficiency gain from using Avoid Growth temporarily in Paris, but I would like to see if we can put together a PPP that targets a Turn 73 attack with as many Units as we can stuff into 4 Galleys as possible, particularly with 1-pop-whipping out of Lyons.


I'm happy to see a PPP that shows the plan far enough ahead that we can see what Units will be available for our attack on London, but I still believe that Turn 67 is a natural stopping point (if we haven't had to stop before then) so that we can reassess the situation and tweak builds if things don't go according to the test plan, can adjust Espionage, etc.

Are we gambling to much on a 86% chance of the spy being successful?

Well, I think that we'll be slightly better off with the early 4th Galley, even though it means stuffing in Chariots from Lyons. Once the defenders are wounded by our First-Strike-avoiding Horse Archers, it becomes more of a total number of attackers game and less of a game of the quality of our attackers.

Mine iron is superior from an economy standpoint but it might force us to make peace with Fredrick sooner.

I don't see a way to get 4 Galleys by Turn 73 if we include the early Iron Mine, so I think that it's a better play to delay the Iron Mine.

There's also the uncertainty of Frederick settling a 4th City, which would have a Road leading directly to that Iron square from the City location that he was settling in the test game.

Taking a Cease Fire in the test game had Alex asking us to join his war against Frederick on the following turn.


Also, with this push on the early attack, I think that I'd now change my vote to "No" if asked to switch to Christianity, as there will be less of a need to please our neighbours in the short run and it will be easier to try to please them after we've captured enough Cities to have the spare production power to whip Settlers for gift Cities for our neighbours.

 

[Folket]

I'mm off for the day. Do people want me to play when I return.

I would also like to see the micro for getting 4 galleys with units to turn 73.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I would also like to see the micro for getting 4 galleys with units to turn 73.

To get 1 Chariot from Lyons for Turn 73, we'd have to abandon the Avoid City Growth micro, in order to be at Size 2 on Turn 69 so that we can 1-pop-whip a Chariot on Turn 69.

Such a Chariot can load on a Galley on Turn 72 and thus be ready for a Turn 73 attack.

In order to get 2 Units out of Lyons, we'll have to defer building the Granary. We then build a Chariot with a focus on Food (we won't work the GH Riv Wine), whipping the Chariot on Turn 67. On Turn 68, we put the overflow Hammers into a Horse Archer and 1-pop-whip the Horse Archer on Turn 69.

Our Worker near Lyons Chops the GH For that is 1 E of Lyons, Roads that square, the moves 1 NE GH For and Chops that Forest for 13 Hammers. We can then whip our Granary on Turn 75, earning 10 Food in the Granary (out of a maximum of 12 Food) when regrowing to Size 2, with 3 Whipping Unhappiness, but being 1 turn away from being down to 2 Whipping Unhappiness.

If we wanted to spend 1 more Worker turn, we could delay the Road at 1 E of Lyons and get the Granary 1 turn sooner in order to earn +2 Food but -1 Hammer and -1 Commerce for 1 less turn of working the Fur. I'd probably just build the Road first so that we can get our Fur Camped 1 turn sooner.

That gives us 4 Galleys and an extra Chariot and an extra Horse Archer for a Turn 73 attack.

What I'm not sure about is just how many Military Units Paris and XO Cognac are contributing, but based on Folket's saved game, with 1 Horse Archer coming from Paris on Turn 73, it looks as though we'd have 1 less Horse Archer than in the test game, meaning 3 Horse Archers and 2 Axemen from the test game plus 1 more Horse Archer and 1 more Chariot, giving us 7 attacking Units on Turn 73. A Chariot can potentially help clean up against an Axeman defender, depending upon the battle outcomes, or at a minimum, provides another warm body for the attack.

I wonder if we'd be able to squeeze out an 8th Unit from Paris, with the possible cost of having to 1-pop-whip in Paris, since a Paris-built mounted Unit can join the attack on the turn after it is built. Having 8 Units would give us even better odds of success; since we're really throwing everything that we've got into this attack, I think that it's worth trying. In the worst case, our 8th Unit is our Warrior 1, such that if the final battle comes down to our Warrior winning, we can still move our Galleys into London and Unload the Units inside of them in order to defend London from a counter-attack.

Note that Units that stay on Galleys inside of a City WILL NOT DEFEND and will die when the last Unit which isn't on a Galley in the City dies.


I'm also not too enthusiastic about Paris Avoid Growth, as it looks like we just earn +1 turn of working a G For square for a whole +1 Hammer and then have to Avoid Growth a second time to get any additional benefit, all the while delaying our first Axeman, which may or may not make the difference against Frederick. So, it's probably better just to play without any Avoid Growth micro in Paris, delay the Lyons Granary in favour of having 2 mounted Units which can contribute in the first attack, 1-pop-whip 2 Galleys out of Orleans, and come up with 5 or 6 Units from Paris and XO Cognac, using Warrior 1 if we can't get a 6th Unit.

We then might not whip as aggressively in further turns out of Paris and XO Cognac... or, maybe we will if doing so means that we can press the attack even further; it depends upon whether Churchill will have 3 Cities by that point in time, or perhaps whether we can afford to go after Hamburg instead of a second English City.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I can't find a way to be whipping our 3rd whippable item from Orleans on Turn 71.

It's pretty easy to make it happen on Turn 72.

So, that fact means delaying the Granary in Orleans in order to have our Galleys built by the start of Turn 72. A Galley whipped on Turn 72 won't be able to load Units into it until Turn 73, and then those Units could only unload on Turn 74.

If we focus on Food and then Hammers, we fall 2 Hammers short.

If we focus on Hammers and then Food, we can't grow enough times to be able to whip the 3rd time on Turn 71.

I've tried multiple ways with Granary first, coming short by 2 Hammers of being able to whip a Galley on Turn 69 by focusing on working the GH Mine and coming short by 1 Hammer of being able to whip a Galley on Turn 69 by growing for 2 turns on the G For as Folket was doing and then working the GH Mine. Involving the Iron won't help as, even if Frederick doesn't build a City to threaten it, we don't have enough Worker actions to Mine the Iron and get in 2 Forest Chops to help with making the Galleys 1-pop-whippable.


If we go Galley -> Granary -> Galley, we only get enough Hammers to 1-pop-whip the Granary on Turn 70.


So, is it worth it to go Galley -> Galley -> Granary in Orleans in order to ensure that we can have 4 Galleys for a Turn 73 attack? I think that we should play like it's that important. What was frustrating about the Turn 75 saved game is that we had whipped a Horse Archer in XO Cognac, but it really had nowhere to go (there wasn't any Galley space available) and thus that Horse Archer wasn't able to contribute to the war, while we'd already been suffering from Unhappiness issues in Paris and XO Cognac, meaning turns of not being able to work some of our strongest Resource squares.

Who knows what will happen in the real game--maybe Churchill will have a large stack of Units inside of London on Turn 73. Or, maybe our Spy will die. All that we can do is try our best to be ready so that if a Turn 73 attack works out, we'll be alleviating some of our Unhappiness issues and can start healing our Units and can start sailing our Galleys toward the next target, so that we'll be able to push on to the next attack two turns sooner.

I think that we can already be happy that we have sufficient Hammers to be able to 1-pop-whip our Orleans and Lyons Granaries, meaning that we don't have to sweat too much about delaying them compared to a fictional scenario where we'd otherwise have to 2-pop-whip our Granaries by delaying Units.

 

[pigswill]

Getting a bit lost with the micro. When does XO complete Glight?

 

[Folket]

In my micro the Great Lighthouse is completed on turn 75.

I'm sorry but I'm not feeling well today. I will not be able to play. If someone wants to pick up the game I'm fine with that or I can continue tomorrow.

Dhoomstriker. Did you try chop, mine iron, chop in Orleans?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Suggested PPP
Diplo Policy
If an AI asks us to convert to Christianity, say no.
If an AI asks for a tech, more often then not I will give the tech.
If an AI asks us to stop trading with another AI, say no.
If an AI asks for a Resource, pause play and check with the team, realising that a "yes" will prevent 10 turns of war,
but doesn't really anger other AIs, so it's free positive Diplo if we don't want to go to war with that AI soon. If we do not have excess resources, it cannot happen.

Multiple turn items
EDIT: Ask Alex to attack Berlin every turn

Spoiler :

Whenever we talk with an AI, I recommend that instead of clicking on that AI's Name or Civ in the Scoreboard, we instead visit the F4 GLANCE or F4 TECHS screen and then right-click on a Leaderhead portrait to talk with an AI
When talking with Alex, we'd then do:
Let's discuss something else...
Why don't you attack...
Berlin...
(See a response along the lines of "We'll do our best!")
Fairewell... (Exit)

Send Warrior 1 NW to the G Riv For that is 1 W of the G Sheep and leave him there to avoid luring Frederick's War Party, now that his Settler Party has already created his City 3. Obviously, retreat Warrior 1 if he is under threat of being attacked

Stopping Points
Frederick and Churchill meet each other
Frederick threatens our City
We meet a new AI
We want to declare war on an AI
Something unexpected happens


Turn 60, 1600 BC

Move forest NNE of XO Cognac to XO Cognac (not to forget when we chop it.)
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, Copper, and G For

Science Rate 0%

Double-checking: Paris at Size 5 earns +9 Food, Horseback Riding won't get completed yet


Turn 61, 1560 BC

Paris switches G For to Sci
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, Copper, and 2 Sci

On the F4 ACTIVE screen, cancel Open Borders with Stalin

Orleans automatically works Cow and G For

Worker 1 Roads the G Copper Mine
Worker 2 completes the Chop at 2 W of Lyons (1 SE of the Wheat)
Worker 3 keeps Mining the GH that is 1 S of Orleans

Double-checking: Great Scientist in 6 turns and Paris will only make 12 + 7 Hammers in its Barracks

Scout moves to XO Cognac


Turn 62, 1520 BC

Espionage Rate 100%
On the Ctrl + e screen, Confirm that Churchill has a Weight of 1 and all other AIs have a Weight of 0

Spoiler :

It will be good to have some additional Espionage Points before our Spy enters English territory to increase his chances of passive survival. We'll need about about 350 EPs for a Turn 73 attack, but we probably want more than 380 EPs so that we can see what Churchill is researching before we pick our next tech. Over-spending on EPs by a bit isn't really a concern, as all Espionage Missions have a discount and/or penalty based on the total EPs that we have earned against all Civs.

Lyons completes Work Boat -> builds Chariot

Paris 2-pop whips Barracks and will complete it this turn
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur and 1 Sci

XO Cognac switches G For -> G Copper Mine
XO Cognac works: Fish, Cow, Horse, and Copper

Orleans keeps working: Cow and G For (for 2 more turns, to grow to Size 3 one turn sooner)

Lyons nets its Fish and should automatically work it

Worker 2 moves into Lyons (NE G Riv > SE Lyons)

Double-checking: Great Scientist in 9 turns, XO Cognac is putting +20 Hammers into the Lighthouse, Orleans makes +4 Hammers in its Work Boat, and Lyons grows in 2 turns



Turn 63, 1480 BC

Paris completes Barracks -> builds Axeman

XO Cognac completes Lighthouse -> Galley 1

(Espionage Rate still at 100%)

Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, and 2 Sci

Worker 1 moves to the G For that is 3 N of XO Cognac (1 N of the Horse)
Worker 2 moves 1 E GH For (1 E of Lyons)
Worker 3 moves 1 NE G Riv For (1 E of Orleans)

Double-checking: Paris puts 35 Hammers into Axeman 1 and XO Cognac is putting 15 Hammers into a Galley


Turn 64, 1440 BC

Paris completes Axeman 1 -> builds Spy

Orleans completes Work Boat -> builds Granary (temporarily, to make sure that we don't put too many Hammers into Galleys)

XO Cognac 2-pop whips Galley 1

Paris gets to work copper.
XO Cognac works: Fish, Cow, and Horse
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, Copper, and 1 Sci

Orleans switches G For -> GH Mine
Orleans works: Cow and GH Mine

Lyons automatically works: Fish and Fur

Worker 1 Chops the G For that is 3 N of XO Cognac (1 N of the Horse)
Worker 2 Chops the GH For that is 1 E of Lyons
Worker 3 Chops the G Riv For that is 1 E of Orleans

Orleans Work Boat heads to Orleans' Fish

Double-checking: Paris is putting 7 Hammers into a Spy, XO Cognac has whipped its Galley, Lyons is making +5 F and +2 H in a Chariot

Axeman 1 heads north-east


Turn 65, 1400 BC

XO Cognac completes Galley -> builds The Great Lighthouse.

XO Cognac steals the Copper
XO Cognac works: Fish, Cow, Copper, and Horse

Paris 2-pop whips Spy.
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, and 1 Sci

Orleans' Fish gets netted
Orleans works: Fish and Cow

Worker 2 Chops and then STOPS Chopping the GH For at 1 E of Lyons (so that we won't lose a Hammer from overflowing too many Hammers from the Chariot)

Double-checking: Paris has whipped its Spy, XO Cognac is putting 41 Hammers into The Great Lighthouse, Orleans is making +7 Food, and Worker 2 won't finish the Chop next turn

Load Scout on Galley 1.
Galley 1 moves toward Fish that is 2 SW of London (Galley 1 must arrive on that Fish on Turn 68)


Turn 66, 1360 BC

Paris completes Spy -> builds Axeman 2

XO Cognac switches to building Galley 2
XO Cognac switches Copper -> G For (so that the Galley stays as a 2-pop-whipping action)
XO Cognac works: Fish, Cow, Horse, and G For

Paris switches Sci -> Copper
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, and Copper

Orleans starts to build Galley 3

Orleans works: Fish, Cow, and GH Mine

(Lyons works: Fish and Fur)

Espionage Rate 0%
Science Rate should be set high enough to learn Horseback Riding this turn

Worker 1 finishes its Chop into XO Cognac's Galley 2
Worker 2 Roads the GH For that is 1 E of Lyons (we can finish the Chop after our Road has been completed)
Worker 3 finishes its Chop into Orleans' Galley 3

Double-checking: Paris is making +9 Food and +37 Hammers in Axeman 2, XO Cognac is making +17 Hammers in Galley 2, Orleans' Chop is going into a Galley, Lyons has 8 + 2 Hammers going into its Chariot, and Horseback Riding will be learned this turn

Spy moves NW G Riv For (1 NW of Paris)


Turn 67, 1320 BC

Tech Horseback Riding -> Currency (or Metal Casting if Churchill is learning Currency)

Paris completes Axeman 2 -> Horse Archer

Science Rate 0%

XO Cognac 2-pop-whips Galley 2
XO Cognac works: Fish, Cow, and Horse

Paris switches G For -> Sci
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, Copper, and 1 Sci

Orleans 1-pop-whips Galley 3
Orleans works: Fish and Cow

Lyons 1-pop-whips Chariot 1
Lyons works: Fish

Worker 1 Moves to the G For that is 1 NW of XO Cognac (1 SW of the Horse)
Worker 3 Moves 2 S to the GH For that is SE + S of Orleans

Spy moves NW G Riv (2 NW of Paris)

Double-checking: XO Cognac has 2-pop-whipped Galley 2, Orleans has 1-pop-whipped Galley 3, and Lyons has 1-pop-whipped Chariot 1

=== Stop play here, if we haven't already stopped for another reason ===
Turn 67 is a busy turn, and it would be good to make sure that everything is still on track, deal with diplomacy items that we haven't dealt with yet, etc.


Turn 68, 1280 BC

Lyons completes Chariot 1 -> Horse Archer

Paris doesn't whip yet since XO Cognac is Size 3

XO Cognac is building The Great Lighthouse

Orleans switches to building a Chariot (yes, a Chariot)

Galley 2 heads toward 2 S of London

Worker 1 Chops the G For that is 1 NW of XO Cognac
Worker 2 finishes the Chop on the GH For that is 1 E of Lyons
Worker 3 Chops the GH For that is SE + S of Orleans

Double-checking: Paris is at Size 5, Orleans is building a Chariot, and Lyons has 32 Hammers going into a Horse Archer

Unload scout W of london.
Load spy into Galley 1 (on the Fish)


Turn 69, 1240 BC

Unload spy in London.
Fortify the Spy in London (so that we don't accidentally move him)

Paris 2-pop-whips the Horse Archer
Paris switches Copper -> Sci
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, and 1 Sci

XO Cognac switches G For -> Copper

XO Cognac switches to building a Horse Archer

Move our Axemen into Orleans (not on a Galley) since we'll complete a Chariot there next turn and with just a Chariot in Orleans, Frederick decided to come at Orleans with his Units, since Orleans finally had a turn with a City Defender in it. On future turns, definitely do not put our Warrior 1 inside of Orleans--no City Defenders is much better than having City Defenders, but having a pile of City Defenders is better than just having a Chariot for our City Defender.

Orleans 1-pop-whips Chariot
Orleans works: Fish

Lyons 1-pop-whips Horse Archer
Lyons works: Fish

Worker 2 moves 1 NE GH For (NE + E of Lyons)


Turn 70, 1200 BC

Paris completes Horse Archer -> Axeman (will get completed this turn thanks to the Copper)

Lyons completes Horse Archer -> Granary

XO Cognac 2-pop-whips the Horse Archer
XO Cognac works: Cow and Horse

Paris switches Sci -> Copper
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, and Copper

Orleans switches to building Galley 4
Orleans works: Fish and Cow

Worker 1 finishes the Chop on the G For that is 1 NW of XO Cognac
Worker 2 Chops the GH For that is NE + E of Lyons
Worker 3 finishes the Chop on the GH For that is SE + S of Orleans into Galley 4


Turn 71, 1160 BC

Paris completes Axeman -> Settler (we at least get 2 Food for the Unhappy citizen when building a Settler)

Paris switches Copper -> Sci
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, 1 Sci, and 1 angry face

XO Cognac switches Fish -> Copper
XO Cognac works Cow, Horse, and Copper

Orleans 1-pop-whips Galley 4
Orleans works: Fish

Worker 1 moves to G Riv Forest NNE of XO Cognac.
Worker 3 might move to the Iron if doing so is safe


Turn 72, 1120 BC

We have these Units on Galleys:
2 Chariots
3 Horse Archers
3 Axemen


Turn 73, 1080 BC

Galley 2 will teleport from 2 S of London to SSEE if we close borders... but, we would only close borders if we first have performed our Espionage Mission, so that we get the Open Borders discount on our Support City Revolt Mission. Teleporting also works if we declare war and skip the Close Borders step, but again, we'd want to perform the Spy Mission before declaring war.

Did you try chop, mine iron, chop in Orleans?

Yes, but we really need both Chops in order to complete the 2 Galleys with 1-pop-whipping actions by Turn 71, which is the turn when the 2nd Orleans Galley must be whipped in order to be able to attack on Turn 73.


For the Turn 73 attack, we'd have 196 / 200 Hammers in The Great Lighthouse as of Turn 75, assuming that the attack failed, or else 199 / 200 Hammers with an extra Happiness from Stonehenge, so Turn 76 it would be.


If you're lost in the micro, take a look at the attached saved games to see how things progress.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Don't see anything about requests to Alex in the PPP.

I will try (not certain I can right now) to play a few turns in 9 or 10 hours, if no one else can.

 

[Folket]

I still think we should mine iron. I will try to make a superior Orleans micro tomorrow.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Okay, I'll not play. Hope you're feeling better tomorrow.

 

[Folket]

And I do. Luckily.

 

[Folket]

Chop, chop, mine iron ending with me having 2 galleys and 1 chariot from Orleans with only 2 whips. But that may delay the granary.

With 3 whips we end up with 2 more food, (regrowing to size 2 one turn faster) and 4 less hammers plus some extra commerce on turn 72. One turn extra working the iron mine gives back 5 hammers and 1 commerce for 1 food. So we net 1 food, 1 hammer and several commerce. We also have a riverside iron mine instead of a normal mine.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I don't think that it's quite that straight-forward.

Let's ignore the Commerce for a moment, since we're only trying to get certain build items out of that City.

If we Chop right away, then on Turn 64, we're down a Hammer by Chopping the G For Riv and turning it into a G Riv square, since by Chopping, we don't have a GH Mine to work and were thus working a G For square while we waited for our Cultural Borders to expand, and end up working a G Riv square instead.

Meanwhile, if we Mine the GH right away, on Turn 64, we can work the GH Mine, earning 1 F + 3 H instead of 2 F.

Also, if we put Hammers into a Chariot earlier, say, on a turn after completing our Work Boat, we can delay our whipping cycle such that instead of whipping on Turns 67, 69, and 71, we can whip on Turns 68, 69, and 71, allowing us to work the GH Mine for an extra turn. (We can't delay the whipping cycle by another turn as we have 2 identical build items--2 Galleys--and thus we still need Turn 70 to be able to put Hammers into Galley 4, since we can't put partial Hammers into 2 different Galleys in a build queue.)

After whipping 3 times to be able to get decent overflow Hammers into our Granary (and that's the whole point of trying not to put too many Hammers into Galley 4 so that it remains 1-pop-whippable--we would be losing out a lot if we were forced to have to 2-pop-whip our Granary), we won't have the population points to work an Iron Mine (we'll be at Size 1 working the Fish).

So, if the Iron Mine comes online 2 turns later, but we couldn't have worked it for those 2 turns, what's the concern?

Plus, I do have a concern that racing to Mine the Iron is going to fail if Frederick causes us trouble with his Units being nearby, particularly if he settles where he settles in the test game. It would be far preferable to be able to snipe Hamburg during this first war and only then sue for a Cease Fire rather than feeling that we need to Cease Fire just to let our Worker work on an action that will net us more benefit by delaying it.


Therefore, yes, the micro can be improved slightly by pre-building the Chariot for one turn and delaying our Turn 67 whipping action to Turn 68, since the Hammers are being saved up for the Granary and not to be able to 1-pop-whip Galley 4 (the second Forest Chop allows us to 1-pop-whip Galley 4).


If we capture London on Turn 73, then Paris will get +1 Happiness, allowing its angry citizen to steal the G Cow Pasture that Orleans is temporarily too small to work.



Now, it's worth exploring the idea that we might be able to go:
Mine the GH -> Chop the 1st For -> Mine the Iron -> Chop the 2nd For

I don't think that we actually need that last Chop until we're ready to complete the Granary.

On Turn 74, we'd be back to Size 2, such that we'd earn enough Hammers with the Chop to be able to 1-pop-whip the Granary on Turn 75. But, if we instead worked the Fish + Iron Mine (instead of the Fish + Cow), we'd have more turns before we'd need to 1-pop-whip our Granary.

It's even arguable that by working the Iron Mine and thereby slowing growth, instead of 1-pop-whipping the Granary, we could temporarily work the Iron Mine plus the GH Mine instead of the Iron Mine and the Fish for 2 turns, allowing us to complete the Granary on Turn 79 while being at Size 2 with 15 / 24 Food.

The micro is going to have to change, as we'll no longer need to store some Hammers in our Granary to avoid the chance of completing Galley 4 without whipping, and we'll need to fit in a turn of building a Chariot in there, but it should be manageable.

 

[Folket]

What are you talking about?

You end up with 15 food and 26 hammers. I end up with 17 food and 22 hammers. Two turns later I will be 1 food and 1 hammer ahead because of the iron mine, unless we work the cow during the extra turn at size 2.

I think we can accept that it might force us to make peace with Fredrick. We can just take a cease fire. We do not plan to have good relationship with Fredrick anyhow and 1 in relationship for Churchill and Joao is easy to fix when we need it.

 

[Folket]

So mining iron gives us extra food, extra hammers, extra commerce and iron if we want to trade or build swordmen.

The downside is that it might make us make peace with Fredrick. But given that we have already seen a stack not escorting a settler it is likely we will have to make peace anyhow.

 

[Folket]

It's even arguable that by working the Iron Mine and thereby slowing growth, instead of 1-pop-whipping the Granary, we could temporarily work the Iron Mine plus the GH Mine instead of the Iron Mine and the Fish for 2 turns, allowing us to complete the Granary on Turn 79 while being at Size 2 with 15 / 24 Food.

By going for the iron mine we can slow build granary and complete it end of turn 79 at size 3 with 19 food saved.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

By going for the iron mine

Can you please clarify which approach of "going for the Iron Mine" you are discussing? Are you talking about Chop -> Mine Iron -> Chop?
Are you talking about Chop -> Chop -> Mine Iron?

You've talked about both approaches, so I'd appreciate some clarity.

On which turns are you suggesting whipping which build items out of Orleans?

Just how many Hammers are being reserved for the Granary?

Orleans is obviously going to be in better shape if we whip it less, but I think that it's preferable to whip 3 times out of Orleans where we still have some Happiness to spare than to whip yet again out of Paris where we will already have an Unhappy citizen.


It's even arguable that we could put 0 Hammers into a Granary, wouldn't Chop one of the two Forests, and would just keep whipping Orleans hard. After a Cease Fire with Frederick (if needed), we could then plan to position our Galleys by Hamburg, gift Orleans to Frederick, declare war, and capture both of those Cities, thereby removing the Whipping Unhappiness in Orleans.

Unfortunately, it doesn't make sense to gift Orleans to Churchill as we need Orleans' Culture in order to be able to strike at London on the first turn of the war.

By going for the iron mine we can slow build granary and complete it end of turn 79 at size 3 with 19 food saved.

It's hard to tell what you're doing without details, particularly in regards to whipping timing. For example, whipping a build item on Turn 72 could offer us a more micro options in Orleans but delays the attack until Turn 74, which means an extra turn where we aren't working the Fish in XO Cognac and the Cow or a Scientist in Paris due to Unhappiness issues. It also has the potential to mean delaying all future attacks by 1 turn.

Or, we might get to Turn 73 and see that Churchill has 6 Units inside of London and then we'd have to decide whether to go after Frederick while we build a Settler to gift a City to Churchill to get him to move his Units out, or to just try waiting for Churchill to move his Units on his own. Alternatively, if we targeted Turn 74 for an attack, we might get to Turn 74 and find out that that's the turn where he has 6 Units in London, but on Turn 73 might have only had 3 Units in London, meaning that we'd just missed our window.

We can't know exactly what we'll face, so all that we can do is be prepared to take advantage of the situation as it presents itself as soon as possible.

 

[Folket]

I was talking about the chop, chop then mine.

I whip on turn 67, 70 and 71. Have two galleys and one chariot built on turn 72. 17 food in storage and 22 hammers overflow into the granary.

I could get two galleys and a chariot built with 2 whips but...

It just occurred to me that chop, mine, chop might be even better.