SGOTM 23 - Xteam

[Dhoomstriker]

I don't see any problems with the red-coloured changes.

I don't have time to confirm whether the changes might cause other parts of the plan to need changing, so I'll just trust that you've taken care of all of the details that would need altering when a given part of the plan changed.

I'm not sure that XO Cognac will be able to work 5 squares on Turn 82, since I recall that we'd grow into Unhappiness, unless we manage to get a Happiness Resource in trade.


We can't ask Alex to attack any of Frederick's Cities since we're not at war with Frederick ourselves. I wouldn't suggest declaring war on Frederick during this mini-turnset just to be able to ask Alex to attack Frederick. It'll be better to declare either on the turn where we will land our troops or possibly 1 turn sooner to lure a Spearman to go after Chariot 3, but that'll be in the next mini-turnset.


Good idea about the London Chop!


Good luck. You have my blessing!

 

[Jersey Joe]

Even though at war, the 50 year period 850BC to 800BC was mostly uneventful.

One of the few highlights was our Horse Archer surviving an attack by a Barbarian archer. The citizens of Argent have awarded the HA a Promotion, but they have not decided on the type of Promotion.

Our supply of single malt whiskey was running low, so we made peace with the English in hopes of importing more.
When we mentioned spirits to the English something got lost in translation and they ended up teaching us about Mysticism and we failed to get a new supply of whiskey.
We have yet to obtain a new supply of whiskey. Since the English are still annoyed with us and will not Open their Borders.

Ever since we opened up trade routes around the world, the tax collectors have been pestering us to find a better system than barter. We are proud to announce that we have discovered Currency.

Notes:

• Peace Treaty closed Borders and teleported the Axeman and Worker saving a few turns of movement.
• I forgot to check that Argent was building a worker so it put 4 hammers into a Granary.
• Also, I misclicked and unloaded an Axeman from the galley he was on.
• Joao will trade Mediation + 10 gold, for Currency. Churchill only has 10 gold.
• London has 41 overflow hammers this turn.

Here are the logs:

Session Turn Log from 850 BC to 800 BC:

Spoiler :

Turn 81, 850 BC: Paris has grown to size 5.
Turn 81, 850 BC: Paris has become unhappy.
Turn 81, 850 BC: Paris can hurry Horse Archer for 2⇴ with 24ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 46 turns.
Turn 81, 850 BC: Lyons can hurry Chariot for 1⇴ with 13ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 36 turns.
Turn 81, 850 BC: London has become happy.
Turn 81, 850 BC: York can hurry Worker for 2⇴ with 13ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 81, 850 BC: Frederick is the worst enemy of Alexander.
Turn 81, 850 BC: Argent has been founded.
Turn 81, 850 BC: XO Cognac will become unhappy on the next turn.
Turn 81, 850 BC: You are the worst enemy of Churchill.
Turn 81, 850 BC: Hatshepsut is the worst enemy of Joao II.
Turn 81, 850 BC: Alexander is the worst enemy of Frederick, Hatshepsut.
Turn 81, 850 BC: Frederick is the worst enemy of Alexander.
Turn 81, 850 BC: Churchill will trade Mysticism
Turn 81, 850 BC: Joao II will trade Mysticism
Turn 81, 850 BC: Hatshepsut will trade Mysticism
Turn 81, 850 BC: Stalin will trade Cow, Wheat
Turn 81, 850 BC: Will Sign Open Borders: Hatshepsut, Joao II
Turn 81, 850 BC: Will Sign Peace Treaty: Churchill
Turn 81, 850 BC: XO Cognac will grow to size 5 on the next turn.
Turn 81, 850 BC: Lyons will grow to size 2 on the next turn.
Turn 81, 850 BC: You have made peace with Churchill!
Turn 81, 850 BC: You have discovered Mysticism!
Turn 81, 850 BC: Stalin has founded Orenburg in a distant land.

Turn 82, 825 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Argent!
Turn 82, 825 BC: Paris will become unhappy on the next turn.
Turn 82, 825 BC: Paris can hurry Chariot for 1⇴ with 16ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 45 turns.
Turn 82, 825 BC: XO Cognac has grown to size 5.
Turn 82, 825 BC: XO Cognac has become unhappy.
Turn 82, 825 BC: Orleans can hurry Axeman for 1⇴ with 11ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 26 turns.
Turn 82, 825 BC: Lyons has grown to size 2.
Turn 82, 825 BC: London can hurry Granary for 1⇴ with 25ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 18 turns.
Turn 82, 825 BC: Stalin is the worst enemy of Churchill.
Turn 82, 825 BC: The borders of Lyons are about to expand.
Turn 82, 825 BC: The borders of London are about to expand.
Turn 82, 825 BC: Joao II will trade Meditation
Turn 82, 825 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 20 ℤ for London.
Turn 82, 825 BC: Paris will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 82, 825 BC: Orleans will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 82, 825 BC: You have discovered Currency!
Turn 82, 825 BC: You have trained a Horse Archer in Paris. Work has now begun on a Chariot.
Turn 82, 825 BC: The borders of Lyons have expanded!
Turn 82, 825 BC: The borders of London have expanded!
Turn 82, 825 BC: Barbarian's Archer (2.24) vs Napoleon REAL's Horse Archer 4 (Paris) (6.60)
Turn 82, 825 BC: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 82, 825 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 82, 825 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 82, 825 BC: Napoleon REAL's Horse Archer 4 (Paris) is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 82, 825 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 30 (38/100HP)
Turn 82, 825 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 30 (8/100HP)
Turn 82, 825 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 82, 825 BC: Napoleon REAL's Horse Archer 4 (Paris) has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 82, 825 BC: While defending, your Horse Archer 4 (Paris) has killed a Barbarian Archer!

Turn 83, 800 BC: Paris can hurry Chariot for 1⇴ with 14ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 54 turns.
Turn 83, 800 BC: XO Cognac can hurry Spy for 1⇴ with 11ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 44 turns.
Turn 83, 800 BC: Orleans has grown to size 4.
Turn 83, 800 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 20 ℤ for London.

Autolog:

Spoiler :

Turn 81/500 (850 BC) [21-Jul-2016 12:36:13]
Paris begins: Chariot (5 turns)
Napoleon REAL (France) and Churchill (England) have signed a peace treaty
Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Mysticism
100% Research: 87 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -27 per turn, 172 in the bank

After End Turn:
XO Cognac grows to size 5
XO Cognac finishes: Chariot
Lyons grows to size 2
Lyons finishes: Chariot
York finishes: Worker

Turn 82/500 (825 BC) [21-Jul-2016 12:51:02]
XO Cognac begins: Spy (6 turns)
Lyons begins: Galley (25 turns)
York begins: Settler (15 turns)
Paris begins: Horse Archer (6 turns)
Argent begins: Worker (12 turns)
A Quarry was built near XO Cognac
40% Research: 35 per turn
60% Espionage: 52 per turn
0% Gold: -28 per turn, 145 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Paris
Tech research finished: Currency
Paris grows to size 4
Paris finishes: Horse Archer
Orleans grows to size 4
Lyons's borders expand
London's borders expand
London finishes: Granary

Other Player Actions:
While defending in French territory at Argent, Horse Archer 4 (Paris) (5.22/6) defeats Barbarian Archer (Prob Victory: 100.0%)

Turn 83/500 (800 BC) [21-Jul-2016 14:09:15]
Research begun: Meditation (2 Turns)
London begins: Lighthouse (5 turns)
Orleans begins: Horse Archer (4 turns)

Here is the Save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/download.php?file=Xteam_SG023_BC0800_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Jersey Joe]

here is a PPP for London only assuming we trade for Mediation Turn 83:

Turn 83, 800 BC
London:
build: completes Granary > Monestary
Works: Fish, Horse, Fur,

Turn 84, 775 BC
London:
build: switch Monestary > Lighthouse
Works: Fish, Horse, Fur, G Forest

Worker 5 moves (1 NW GH For) toward the GH For where we'll settle Gems City (1 E of the Fish that is to the north of York)

Turn 85, 750 BC
London:
build: 2 pop whip Lighthouse
Works: Fish, Horse,

Turn 86, 725 BC
London:
build: Compelted Lighthouse > Monestary
Works: Fish, Horse,

Turn 87, 700 BC
London:
build: Compelted Monestary > Missionary
Works: Fish, Horse,

Turn 88, 675 BC
London:
build: Compelted Missionary > ???
Works: Fish, Horse,

Did not track food to see when London grows (except obvious turn 84 growth)

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Great job, things are looking good!

build: 2 pop whip Lighthouse

We are Organized, giving us cheap Lighthouses and cheap Courthouses. (We also get cheap Factories, but there's no good reason to tech that far in the game.) So, the plan will need reworking.

So, since we can delay the Missionary but we need the Spies to arrive earlier (so that they can play cards with each other for 5 turns), we could get 2 Spies by doing the following:
T83 Build and complete Spy 1, Turn On Avoid Growth
T84 Build a Spy, Turn Off Avoid Growth
T85 Get enough Hammers in the Spy for it to be a 1-pop-whipping action
T87 1-pop-whip the Spy
At some point, 2-pop-whip the Monastery
Complete a Missionary with overflow Hammers plus raw Hammers, such that for a T97 tech theft, it has to arrive at 3 S of Paris with movement points available by T96, meaning that it has to exist on T93, meaning that we must complete the Missionary on T92 at the latest

The only question is do we have the ability to squeeze in a 30-Hammer Lighthouse in there and still make it work, and if we squeeze in a Lighthouse, how late would it get fit into that build order, seeing as how we need to complete 2 Spies, and 2 Spies means not being able to dump Hammers into one Spy and some Hammers into another Spy, since they are the same build item. Obviously, the sooner that we complete our Lighthouse, the more Food that we'll earn from it.


Avoiding Growth earns us +5 Food, but only if we remember to turn it off on Turn 84!


With the diversion of our Worker 5, I'm not sure that we'll be able to Chop the 10-Hammer Chop under Gems City anymore, so that fact may be a cost of diverting our Worker (sorry for not thinking of it earlier).


That roaming stack of 2 Axes + 1 Spear that is NE + N of Berlin, all of them having Combat I, is nasty.


Cologne's two City Defender Axemen having Combat I and a 25% Fortification bonus means that we only get 77% odds against them with an Unpromoted Chariot.

Combat I on a Chariot brings that up to 89% odds, so it could be wise to have two Combat I Chariots in the west. We'd need to test teleportation to see if we can get Combat I Chariot 3 to the west, probably moving:
T84 (Make note of what's in Berlin) > 1 NW G Road (1 SE of Hamburg) > (Make note of what's in Hamburg) > 1 W G Riv Cot > 1 W G Riv Sheep
T85 1 SW G Road (1 SW of Cologne), then wait there with 1.5 movement points to hopefully get teleported somewhere useful, while still being able to move 2 squares after getting teleported


Meanwhile, we could send 0-XP Chariot 4 to the west to end up being on the G For that is 2 E of Hamburg, to see if being there can lure a Spearman out of Hamburg.


Another option is not to plan to fight using our two Chariots at Cologne and thus send one of the Combat I Chariots on a boat (the Paris-built one won't be able to board a Galley), to hopefully get a Promotion in the fight at Hamburg. With the Workers likely leaving the Cologne area now that the Sheep has been Pastured, the Units near Cologne might simply end up playing defensively.


Horse Archer 4 definitely gets the Shock (Anti-Melee) Promotion.


The order of Units which attack should Hamburg can be checked in a test game once we see what we're up against in Hamburg, then we check to see the number of "hits" for various of our Units attacking defenders with the same Promotions and the same amount of turns having Fortified, to see if, say, picking a less-promoted Unit would give us the same ratio of "hits," and if it does, then we'd save a more-promoted Unit for a later fight in the sequence of 1-on-1 fights when capturing a City.


With Chariot 4 being an attempted suicider at 2 E of Hamburg, that gives us:
Galley 2 carrying HA 4 and one Chariot
Galleys 1 and 4 carrying Chariot 5 (already aboard), Axe 4, the HA that we build in Orleans now, and one Chariot
Galleys 3 and 5 already have their two Chariots and two Horse Archers loaded onto them

So, we need to be smart about how we move Galley 2 to be able to pick up both HA 4 in Scandinavia plus a Chariot on the mainland on Turn 84, while still being 2 squares (or less) away from Hamburg at the end of the turn.

We have three Chariots at 1 W of Cologne. One is needed for Galley 2 (say, Chariot 2). Another is needed for one of Galley 1/Galley 4 (say, Chariot 1). The third one (Chariot 4) goes east.


That gives us Chariot 3 in the west, the Paris-built Chariot in the west, and the Orleans-built Axeman in the west.

We can't steal a Worker at Cologne, as, with two of the Worker there having sped up the completion of the G Sheep Pasture, they'll be gone before it's time to declare war on Frederick.

If we threaten Cologne, it'll probably get whipped. Maybe it will be possible to avoid Cologne from being whipped with our Axeman staying in Orleans for a turn and our two Chariots being at 2 W of Cologne for a turn. Or, maybe the Axeman should move to our Iron. Testing would be needed to see when Frederick might be goaded into whipping Cologne.

At least by having our Chariots at 2 W of Cologne, on Turn 86, they would have the ability to move 1 E G Riv and then attack Cologne without attacking across of a River.

Attacking 2 defenders with only 2 attackers is probably not wise, and we'll probably end up regretting doing so, with at least one of the defenders surviving and promoting, so our Units in the west are probably best just being there to kill off Units that Frederick throws toward Orleans, assuming that he sends a stack without a combination of Axemen + Spearmen in it (we can pick off a Spearman with our Axeman and we can pick off an Axeman with our Chariots, but with both Axemen and Spearmen in a stack of Frederick's, we'd only really be able to play defensively).


It seems that Hatty has a Silver Resource.


Yes, 10 Gold for Currency from each of Joao and Churhchill is not very much, but at least Joao and Churchill aren't anyone's Worst Enemy, so we can earn some Fair and Forthright Trading Diplo Attitude bonus without incurring any You Traded With Our Worst Enemies Diplo Attitude penalty. If we get another +2 Fair and Forthright Trading with Churchill, to bring us up to Cautious, we'll be able to get Open Borders with him.

BUT, wait! Hatty is going for Aesthetics. Since we don't need our Monastery right away, we could try to get both Aesthetics and Meditation from Joao when Hatty learns Aesthetics. I'm not sure if Currency is worth both techs or whether we'd need to partially research one of those techs in order to get both of them in trade. More testing is needed.


Since Joao and Churchill don't know each other, we can trade Currency to Churchill now and delay trading Currency to Joao.


So, what to do about Hatty? She'll get Aesthetics in 3 turns. What should we do? Gifting Lyons may ultimately end up being necessary, but if we gift it early, Hatty will have time to whip Units there, and we won't get the use of that City in the short term.

Here are her tech preferences for some relevant techs:

Spoiler :

Tech preferences only account for about 1/3rd of an AI's tech selection choice, so even a "0" tech might get picked, but when there are multiple techs around 40+, it's a lot rarer to see a "0" tech getting picked.

Now that she has unlocked the "Aesthetics line" by going for Aesthetics, Literature and Drama are right near the top of her list, so she'll probably be the one to get the Great Artist from Music.

Speeding up her tech rate techincally speeds up our tech rate (if we are stealing, but not necessarily if she duplicates research on a tech that we want to trade to her), so we might as well Open Borders with her to speed up her tech rate even further.

Option A] We research something relatively cheap and sell it to her plus Horseback Riding for Monarchy. I don't see a cheap tech that she doesn't already know though, so this option doesn't really exist.

Option B] We research a tech that is more expensive than Monarchy and hope that she doesn't research it, or at least if she does, that we'll get enough remaining trade value out of the tech. Options could include Compass or Metal Casting. An annoying part about picking Compass is then we'd be unable to spam Scouts for gifting to an AI later, since being able to build Explorers obsoletes Scouts. I doubt that we'd build a Harbour for quite some time. Metal Casting carries a bit of a risk that she'll tech it, but that risk is greatly reduced with her having opened up the "Aesthetics line." We could learn Metal Casting in 5 turns (maybe 6 turns if we whip a lot, but then maybe 5 turns again if we Open Borders with Hatty for a couple of extra 2-Commerce Trade Routes), giving us Metal Casting and Priesthood on about T90. Compass also looks like it would take us 5 turns to research.

Option C] We trade Horseback Riding plus Gold for Monarchy. Or, we trade Horseback Riding for a partially-researched Monarchy.

Option D] We gift Lyons to Hatty and try to steal Monarchy on T91.

Option E] We simply wait until T97 or T98 before we get Monarchy.


I'm hesitant to pick Option C] since we don't know whether Hatty will have Ivory or can get it in trade, although it's generally available in Africa in an Earth-based map, and if she has Ivory, she'd be instantly able to build War Elephants, which would spell doom for us being able to invade her easily.


We could self-tech Metal Casting now, in hopes to be able to trade it to Hatty for Monarchy. +1 Happiness from Wines coming online sooner and +1 Happiness from Cities with a Military Police Unit would help us out, even though it would cost us a turn of Anarchy to switch into Hereditary Rule. Doing so would mean about 500 less EPs on Hatty, though, which is actually a lot.

Alternatively, could we aim for stealing techs on T97 or T98, including stealing Hereditary Rule at that time, then save a turn of Anarchy by switching into both Organized Religion and Hereditary Rule on the same turn as each other.

The fact that we'd have to wait until about T90 before we could get Monarchy already makes me doubt whether it's worth trying to get it in trade. It's only Paris and XO Cognac that really need the Happiness, to be able to work an extra G Coast or an extra G For square. With a Granary, that extra Food helps, but it's probably not worth a detour valued at 500 EPs.

Hopefully, we'll be able to make do in the medium term with our current Happiness plus +1 Happiness from Gems. That way, we can hang onto Lyons (except possibly gifting it on the turn when we have to gift our gift City).


We could actually get XO Cognac's Settler on Turn 88, meaning that we'd want a Chariot to arrive in Lyons on Turn 89 to accompany said Settler toward Africa.

Alternatively, could we get a Chariot over to Africa to explore there first? Well, a Galley could appear out of Lyons on T87 (or on T86 if we want to work the Unimproved Wine instead of the Fish for 2 turns), but such a Galley would take 4 turns to drop off a Unit in Africa, so I'm going to say "no, we can't send a Unit in advance of the Settler" and we'd just have to plan to have a Chariot arrive in Lyons on Turn 89, when our XO-Cognac-built Settler would arrive in Lyons.

Could a Paris-built Settler arrive there any sooner? Maybe. We'll have 15 / 30 Food in Paris on T84 and will make 14 more Food over two turns... we could steal the Cow for 1 turn to be at Size 6 on T86. On T87 we could whip the Settler, which could then board a Galley on T88.

So, we actually need a Chariot in Lyons by T88 and thus XO Cognac's Settler doesn't need to be whipped as soon as possible.

We could put 2 turns of Hammers into a Settler now, while we're Unhappy, getting 30 Hammers in a Settler for more overflow Hammers, then growing for 2 turns to grow just as 1 Unhappiness wears off.

We'd then 3-pop-whip the Settler when we're about to grow to Size 7 or possibly on the turn after growing to Size 7.


I suppose that another consideration is that it would be nice to grow our gift City to Size 2, whip it, complete the whipped build item, and have a turn to switch into Christianity.

At 6 Food per turn by stealing Paris' Wheat, we could grow to 22 Food (actually 24 Food) for Size 2 with 4 turns of working the Wheat.

So:
Turn 1, we settle
Turn 5, we are at Size 2 and we whip
Turn 6, we complete the whipped build item (something worth 34 or less Hammers, so probably a Chariot, unless we settle one turn sooner for an extra Hammer)
Turn 6, we convert to Christianity
Turn 7, we gift the City

If our target is T97 for gifting the City and stealing techs, then we'd actually have to settle the City on T91. For a Settler coming out of XO Cognac, we could settle the City 1 turn after the Settler exists on the map, meaning 2 turns after whipping the Settler.

So, if we whipped the Settler on T89, it would exist on T90, and could be settled on T91.

If we whipped the Settler on T88, we could steal the Wheat for 1 less turn, working a G Riv square for 2 turns instead, taking 5 turns to grow and thus having 5 Hammers in the build item, allowing us to whip an Axeman (or a Spearman for Hatty's War Chariots).

So, T88 would be the target date for whipping XO Cognac's Settler and we should plan the XO Cognac micro around that date, accordingly.

Sure, we might end up slipping the date on which we steal techs, but as we did earlier with the T73 attack on London, let's aggressively target T97 (although I think that I said earlier that only T98 is possible for getting London's Spies in place in time for a 50% Stationary discount), and then try to make every aspect of the plan work for Spies arriving at 3 S of Paris by T91 and stealing techs on T97. If some Spies have a 40% Stationary Bonus discount, then perhaps those Spies might be used to steal a cheaper tech, such as Polytheism, allowing us to still meet our T97-tech-theft target turn.

The sooner that we can get to a point where we are efficiently stealing techs, the sooner that we can get to self-teching Civil Service, so let's stick with the T97 target and do what we can with the micro to meet it, realising that if some Spies don't have the full 50 Stationary discount, those Spies could still be of use for slightly-more-expensive tech thefts of some of the cheaper-to-steal techs.

 

[Jersey Joe]

You can have enough hammers to quickly whip the second spy if on turn 84 if you work: horse, stone, fish, and fur. I do not know how this impacts York's settler build, London only needs the stone for 1 turn.
EditI forgot about the "Turn of growth" would not working the Stone instead of the fish be about the same?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

You can have enough hammers to quickly whip the second spy if on turn 84 if you work: horse, stone, fish, and fur. I do not know how this impacts York's settler build, London only needs the stone for 1 turn.
EditI forgot about the "Turn of growth" would not working the Stone instead of the fish be about the same?

Well, it depends upon what we want to do. Avoid Growth gives us +5 Food, so it's like being able to work a 7-Food square for 1 turn.

Working the Stone would get us 3 Hammers and 1 Commerce instead of the 5 Food, but then York wouldn't be working the Stone and would have to work a G For square instead, so the net comparison is really 5 Food versus 1 Hammer from working an extra G For square, unless we are so tight in London that those extra 3 Hammers will make the difference in terms of completing a build item.

Arguably, if those 3 Hammers make the difference between being able to complete a Lighthouse now versus not until 10+ turns later, that would mean making +10 Food by getting the Lighthouse now.

So, a mocked test is probably warranted for figuring out whether we can get a Lighthouse now and still get two Spies, with the last Spy appearing on the map on T88.

If Galley 2 is 2 W of Hamburg on T84, then it can drop off its Units at 1 S of Hamburg on T85, then arrive at 1 SW of London on T88. Assuming no more Roads being built, such a Spy can arrive at 3 S of Paris on T93. Assuming that we can build 1 Road in that time, that means arriving at 3 S of Paris on T92. Assuming that we can get 2 Roads in that time, it means arriving at 3 S of Paris on T91.

Worker 1:
T84 complete G Stone Road
T85 partial Farm at 1 SW of Paris
T86 partial Chop at 1 NE of Paris
T87-T88 Road at 2 NE of Paris
T89 Move directly to 1 SW of Paris
T90-T91 Road the Wheat before the London-built Spies move


I do like your approach of planning each of the pieces individually for the next several turns, so that we'll know exactly when we'll need to complete build items in certain Cities, such that we can get the micro for each important City correct before playing. It may take a couple of days before we've got a complete plan laid out, though.

 

[Jersey Joe]

Depending on if you want a promoted Chariot or unpromoted Chariot with the Horsearcher, that Chariot loads on the Galley (4?) with movement that is on Orlean's fish. That Galley moves 1NW > 1NW; Then on turn 84 1W to pick up Horsearcher 4 who is at the "T14 Wolf" sign. Galley 2 moves 1S > 1S; Then on turn 84 1SE > 1SE ending its movement on Orlean's fish.

All the above gives you is an empty Galley that cannot move until turn 85. Without 1 of the Galley's having a TARDIS promotion it looks like Galley 2 should just pick up the Horsearcher giving us 4 Horsearchers, 1 Axeman and 4 Chariots on 5 Galleys.

 

[Jersey Joe]

About how many spies would you like to have in place by turn 91?
What builds are scheduled for Orleans? Maybe whip a lighthouse there or a Monastery.

Edit I found one of your the discussions bout the number of spies needed:

The 50% City Culture discount is huge, but it disappears quickly; if we coordinate a large stack of Spies (I'm now thinking of like 10 Spies, no joke) with our State Religion, a Trade Route, that City Culture discount, and the close proximity to Paris discount, then along with a ton of Espionage Points, we could aim to steal a whole bucketload of techs in one shot.

Right now, the potential list includes:
Mathematics
Code of Laws
Construction
Calendar
Monarchy (hopefully, we'll get it in trade for Currency, since it's a non-monopoly tech)
Monotheism (although it's a non-monopoly tech, so it could also come in via trade)
Theology
Philosophy

By the time that we have all of our Spies set up, there will probably be another 3 techs on that list, if not more than 3.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Assuming that we're going to be waiting to get Aesthetics in trade, which we might as well plan to get, we'll need a placeholder tech for our Flasks while we wait for Aesthetics to be available in trade. That tech could be Meditation if a test game shows that Aesthetics + Meditation won't be available in trade for Currency, otherwise we should pick some tech in which to dump our Flasks temporarily, maybe Compass (thinking that we might still get Metal Casting via theft later and that it'll be relatively unlikely to get Compass by theft).

Add Polytheism to that list of techs that we can steal, which could potentially come from a Spy without its full Stationary bonus, or else we could plan to self-tech it before stealing techs if we feel that we'll be low on Spies.

I'd probably suggest a priority of:
Mathematics
Code of Laws (requires us self-teching Priesthoood)
Monarchy (requires us self-teching Priesthoood)
Calendar
Construction
Philosophy
Theology (but requires us to steal or trade for Monotheism first)
Polytheism
Monotheism (could potentially get it in trade if we have something to trade away, but we won't have something to trade away, I imagine; requires us to get Polytheism)

Assuming that we steal all of those techs, that's 9 Spies, with 7 of them being for relatively-expensive techs. I'd expect 5 Spies to fail, which doesn't cost us any EPs but does cost us our Spies. So, that would be a target of 12 Spies by T91, which sounds rather improbable.

At a minimum, we should aim to steal:
Mathematics
Code of Laws (requires us self-teching Priesthoood)
Monarchy (requires us self-teching Priesthoood)

And, expect, say, 3 Spies to die, so a minimum of 6 Spies.


If we get somewhere between 6 and 12 Spies with a full Stationary bonus, and some other Spies with a smaller amount of a Stationary bonus, then we'll at least get the techs that we really need.

Some Spies will survive and will get teleported back to Paris.

If we declare war on Hatty after making tech thefts and steal back the gift City (assuming that we've grown it to Size 2 first, and preferably have also had time to complete a whipped build item--but, if we're short that turn, don't whip the City, as we should be able to recapture it when it is Size 2), and if we steal back the City on the turn that we gifted it to her, then later, if we can get Open Borders with Hatty after the war, we can get the same discount on stealing techs. Even without Open Borders, we'll be able to get all of the discounts again except for the Open Borders discount, since we'll have kept the full City Culture discount.

By having gifted her a City once, we can gift it again later at any time (that we aren't at war with her), even if she has 4 or more Cities at that time.

Even if we did manage to steal ALL of those techs in the first round of tech-theft, it will still be worth it to declare war and recapture our City so as to get the full City Culture discount again later, as she'll have learned more techs later that we could steal in a successive round of tech thefts.


So, on a side note, it wouldn't hurt to at some point before T97 try to ship a Spearmen or two over to Africa, to defend whatever City we place there. Alternatively, we could gift a City that is in jeopardy of being captured to Joao, then recapture it later from Joao after we've gotten a Cease Fire with Hatty.


I'm not sure why we can't get 10 Units on our Galleys. We have Open Borders with Frederick. A Chariot can walk right through his lands and board one of our Galleys. As long as we board on or before Turn 84, we can unload on Turn 85.


For example, let's say that we wanted to put Chariot 1 and Horse Archer 4 on Galley 2:
T83 Chariot 1 stays at 1 W of Cologne, to keep Unit Supply costs down
T83 HA 4 moves 1 SW GH Deer For
T83 Galley 2 moves 1 SE (1 S of the GH Deer For) > 1 S (2 S GH Deer For)
T84 HA 4 moves 1 SE G (to the T14 Wolf sign) > 1 SW to board Galley 2
T84 Galley 2 moves 1 S Fish (2 W of Hamburg)
T84 Chariot 1 moves 1 NE G Sheep Pasture > 1 NE to board Galley 2
T85 Galley 2 moves 1 E (1 W of Hamburg)
T85 Units on Galley 2 unload 1 SE (1 S of Hamburg)
T85 Galley 2 moves 1 W Fish (2 W of Hamburg) on its way to 1 SE of London

W = left
E = right


Units that have boarded Galley 3 and Galley 5 in Orleans won't be able to unload until Turn 85, which has always been the targeted unloading turn. For example:
T83 Galley 3 moves 1 N (1 N of Orleans) > 1 NE Fish (to Orleans' Fish)
T84 Galley 3 moves 1 NE > 1 E (1 N of the G Sheep)
T85 Galley 3 moves 1 E Fish > 1 E (1 W of Hamburg)
T85 Chariot 6 manually unloads from Galley 3 and moves 1 SE (1 S of Hamburg)
T85 Chariot 7 manually unloads from Galley 3 and moves 1 SE (1 S of Hamburg)


If we were to chose to bring less than 10 Units to the battle of Hamburg, we could do so, but I don't suggest attacking Cologne with a "mini force," as we'll end up taking heavy losses without a lot of battle luck. So, I don't see a good reason not to bring 10 Units on boats to Hamburg. It's better to go in with a large stack, ensure that we capture the target, and ensure that we have full-health Units to deal with any additional Units that try to engage us after capturing Hamburg.

An 11th Unit can be on the G For that is 2 E of Hamburg--if it gets attacked, we'll have cleared out a City Defender from Hamburg. If it doesn't get attacked, we'll have an 11th Unit that could attack Hamburg.


York and its Workers
York has 23 Hammers. On T84, we'll get +20 Hammers and on T85, we'll get another +20 Hammers.

We can make between 7 and 9 Hammers per turn, depending upon whether we work the Stone or whether London steals the Stone and we work a G For.

By the start of T84, we'll have 23 + 9 = 32 H
By the start of T85, we'll have 32 + ( 7 or 9 ) + 20 = 59 or 61 H, neither of which is enough to 1-pop-whip our Settler
By the start of T86, we'll have 59 or 61 + ( 7 or 9 ) + 20 = 86 to 90 H and we can easily 1-pop-whip our Settler
On T87, our Settler will exist and can move 1 NE G > 1 N G For
On T88, our Settler can move 1 N GH For
On T89, it will be the last chance to Chop that GH For, after which we will settle the Gems City. Any Worker that Chopped this turn can move along a Road to the eastern GH Gems For square next turn, assuming that we've Roaded the Gems square by then. Any Worker that Chopped last turn can move along that same Road this turn, after the City gets settled.

So, that fact gives us targets of:
Chopping the GH For where we'll settle on or before T89
Building a Road on the GH Gems For on or before T88

Worker 5 could move to the GH Gems For square and Road it by the end of T87.

After Worker 6 Chops on T85, Worker 4 can move 2 N (to NE + N of York)
T86 Worker 4 can move to the GH For where we'll settle
T87, 88, and 89 can be used for Worker 4 Chopping

So, that leaves Worker 6:
T85 Finish the Chop at 1 NE of York
T86 Move 1 N G For (NE + N of York)
T87 Move 1 NE GH Gems For
T88 Start Chopping the GH Gems For

Assuming that Worker 5 were to Chop the GH Gems For on T88, then we need to make sure that both Workers stop Chopping by the end of T88, with 2 out of 3 turns of Chopping going into the GH Gems For's Chop.

On T89, we then have the following order of actions:
1. Worker 4 Finishes the Chop the GH For where we'll settle
2. The Settler settles the City at NE + 2 N of York
3. One of Worker 5 or Worker 6 finishes the Chop of the GH Gems For
4. The other of Worker 5 or Worker 6 starts Mining the GH Gems For
5. On T90, all 3 Workers complete the Mine on the GH Gems square, giving us +1 Happiness on T90.

In this way, we don't care if and when London steals the Stone square, as we'll get York's Settler at the same time whether we work the Stone or a G For square.

What builds are scheduled for Orleans?

Spies. That build item should be at the top of our lists for most Cities, except for further-away Cities like York and Argent.

Maybe whip a lighthouse there or a Monastery.

The Monastery in London is only because we won't have Organized Religion before stealing techs. A Monastery not actually a great build item, so I wouldn't recommend building additional Monasteries elsewhere.

A Lighthouse in Orleans would be nice to slot in... perhaps when we would make more than 9 Hammers in a Spy that we were hoping to 2-pop-whip, we could temporarily switch to building a Lighthouse, then 2-pop-whip a Spy and overflow into a Lighthouse.

I'm far less interested in making a Lighthouse in Lyons since we will have to give that City away to Hatty if she settles a 4th City--there will already be a risk that we won't recapture our Granary, which would be unfortunate. The greater the percentage of our Culture, the greater the chance that we'll keep Buildings when capturing a City. If enough of the population points are still culturally ours, we won't even lose population points when recapturing a City, such as recapturing Cities on the turn that we steal techs.

After we've gifted a City at 3 S of Paris once, then we won't need to worry about possibly gifting Lyons and after that time, we could aim to slot in a Lighthouse in Lyons.


I don't think that it will be worth it to build infrastructure in York. Instead, we could build and whip a Work Boat after the Settler, perhaps getting two Work Boats--one for the Gems City and one to explore the northern Tundra area thoroughly to look for additional Happiness Resources or perhaps Marble. And, we could probably plan to Chop plus 1-pop-whip another Settler later, too, perhaps to gift a City to Churchill on a northern island or to settle on top of a useful Resource temporarily and then later gift the City to Churchill.

Since Churchill's capital is so far north, gifting him a City further north would count as Liberating him a City as long as we have 0 Culture in the City. If, say, there are two Marble Resources that could be settled upon, we could gift him both Cities (Liberating them to him), getting Marble available for trade without having the expense of a far-away City.


After Worker 2 Mines the GH Riv Wine, we could do multiple things... perhaps build a Road on the GH Riv Wine if we think that we'd later want to turn it into a Winery.

We could also build a G Riv Farm at 1 NW of Lyons.

Or, we could build a partial G Riv Farm at 1 NW of Lyons and then Road the GH Sheep to the east of Lyons, followed by roading the GH to the east of there, to prepare for going after Athens at some point.

Assuming that we capture all but Berlin from Frederick, but he won't give us Open Borders, a trick to get Open Borders to send our Units south past Berlin would be to declare war on Alex, at which point Frederick would Open Borders with us due to an AI always being willing to Open Borders with a fellow war ally. If we were to consider doing so, and we had a Road leading eastward from Lyons, a couple of new Units from our core Cities could quickly follow the Road toward Athens and join up with the remaining Units from our war with Frederick.


Note that a Unit on the G Riv Sheep that is 1 SW of Hamburg will teleport to 1 W of Cologne (Munich in the test game) when we declare war on Frederick.

For completeness' sake, I'll say that if we were to declare war now, Chariot 3 would get teleported 2 N to 2 E of Hamburg, which would be a pretty unhelpful location to be at now, since a Unit that left Hamburg to kill Chariot 3 would be able to make it back into Hamburg, possibly with a fresh Promotion under its belt. It's great to be there on Turn 85 or even Turn 84 if we don't feel that Units might leave Hamburg to kill a sacrificial Unit when our stack is 1 S of the City (needs testing), but not on Turn 83.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Let's just keep things simple by keeping Chariot 3 in the east. We can have one of the Chariots by Cologne come to join it. That way, Chariot 3 can stay near Munich to keep an eye on what Frederick's Units do.


Nottingham Culture-busts the Coast that is 4 W of Nottingham, but not the square 1 S of there. So, once we have a Worker NE + N of York, our Woodsman II Axeman can head toward London's Fur, from where he'd be ready to either head toward Churchill or to quickly act as a Military Police Unit in London.


Let's just make the trade for Meditation from Joao now, so that we can dump Flasks into Priesthood, as originally planned. We can trade for Aesthetics later, once we've stolen some techs to trade for it.

As for London, with Meditation in hand, the micro will become a whole lot easier to figure out, since we can dump some Hammers into a Monastery after completing our Lighthouse.

T83 Complete the Lighthouse
T84 Dump overflow Hammers into a Monastery
T85 Start to build a Spy with 8 Hammers (City Centre 1 + Horse 3 + Fur 1 + G For 1 + Priest 2 = 8)
T86 2-pop-whip the Spy for 60 H, work Fish + Horse for 6 H (City Centre 1 + Horse 3 + Priest 2 = 6)
T87 Need to make 80 - 60 - 8 - 6 = 6 H, which is easy to do by working Fish + Horse
T88 Have two Spies which got completed in time to board Galley 2 this turn at 1 SE of London


I don't think that we'll benefit by selling any techs to Frederick relative to the potential risk of what he could do with those techs, so let's just let him keep whatever Gold he has. (We definitely don't want to Demand his Gold, as doing so would prevent us from declaring war on him for 10 turns! )



Suggested PPP

Turn 83, 800 BC

On the F6 Technology Advisor screen, select Priesthood

(Remain at a 100% Espionage Rate on Hatty)

Trade Meditation + 10 Gold from Joao <-> Currency

(Do not Open Borders with Joao--we should continue to keep him isolated)

Trade 10 Gold from Churchill <-> Currency

Open Borders with Churchill (we aren't his Worst Enemy, so we just need to get him back to Cautious--hopefully, the Currency trade will be sufficient)

Open Borders with Hatty (speeding up her Research as well as our collection of Espionage Points)


London Turns ON Avoid Growth

London continues to build a Lighthouse

Galley 2 moves 1 SE (3 S of Argent) > 1 S (NW + W of Hamburg)
HA 4 (1 SE of Argent) moves 1 SW GH Deer For

Galley 4 (on Orleans' Fish) Skips its turn

Galley 3 moves N > NE to Orleans' Fish
Galley 5 moves N > NE to Orleans' Fish

Chariot 2 Skips his turn at 1 W of Cologne
Chariot 1 Skips his turn at 1 W of Cologne
Chariot 4 moves to the G Riv Sheep that is 1 SW of Hamburg

Scout heads eastward in search of a Russian coastal City


Turn 84

Paris completes Chariot > Settler

London completes Lighthouse > Christian Monastery

London Turns OFF Avoid Growth

Galley 2 waits for HA 4
HA 4 moves 1 SE G (NW + N of Hamburg) > 1 SW onto Galley 2
Galley 2 (with HA 4 aboard) moves 1 S to Hamburg's Fish

Chariot 2 (at 1 W of Cologne) moves NE G Sheep > NE onto Galley 2 (on Hamburg's Fish)

Galley 2 Skips its turn on Hamburg's Fish

Axe 4 (1 NE of Orleans) Promotes to Combat I (so that we don't forget to do so later, since he will be our stack defender against enemy Spearmen and shouldn't be used to actually attack Hamburg)
Axe 4 (1 NE of Orleans) moves 1 N Fish (to board one of the Galleys)

Orleans' new Horse Archer moves 1 NE G Riv > 1 N Fish (to board one of the Galleys)

Chariot 1 (at 1 W of Cologne) moves NW onto a Galley on Orleans' Fish

Confirm that there are 8 land Units aboard Galleys 1, 3, 4, and 5 (or Orleans' Fish)

Galley 1 moves from Orleans' Fish to NE > E (to 1 N of Cologne's G Sheep)
Galley 3 moves from Orleans' Fish to NE > E (to 1 N of Cologne's G Sheep)
Galley 4 moves from Orleans' Fish to NE > E (to 1 N of Cologne's G Sheep)
Galley 5 moves from Orleans' Fish to NE > E (to 1 N of Cologne's G Sheep)

The current location of Chariot 4 (at 1 SW of Hamburg) and Chariot 3 (at 1 W of Munich) should give us good visibility of Frederick's Units. Make note of which Units we see in Berlin, Munich, and on the nearby squares

Chariot 4 moves to the G For that is 2 E of Hamburg

Chariot 3 Skips its turn at 1 W of Munich

Worker 4 finishes the Chop at 1 E of York
Worker 5 moves 1 NW GH For (1N of the Fur)

Paris' Chariot moves into Orleans

Spy 2 heads to Lyons

Axe 3 (in England) Skips his turn


Double-checking: London has Turned OFF Avoid Growth


Turn 85

Orleans completes Axeman > build Lighthouse (to capture overflow Hammers)

Paris switches to building a Spy

XO Cognac switches to building a Settler

Lyons switches to building a Chariot (we can plan to 2-pop-whip our Galley, then complete this Chariot to escort a Settler on its way to Africa)

London switches to building a Spy

Using Chariot 3's visibility, make note of which Units are in Munich and in Berlin

Make sure that Frederick doesn't have a Unit on the G Riv Cottage Road that is 1 S of Hamburg; if he does have a Unit there, stop play

Declare War on Frederick (do not try to take his Gold)

After we are at war with Frederick, unload the 10 Units from our 5 Galleys on the G Riv Cottage Road that is 1 S of Hamburg

Don't move Chariot 3 (who should have teleported to the G For at 2 E of Hamburg) and Chariot 4 (2 E of Hamburg) yet--let's discuss which Units we saw of Frederick's in the nearby area before moving our Chariots

Don't move the Units near Orleans yet (Orleans' new Axeman and Paris' new Chariot inside of Orleans)

After all 10 land Units have unloaded from our Galleys, Galley 2 can move 1 W to Hamburg's Fish (2 W of Hamburg)

Worker 4 waits for Worker 6
Worker 1 moves to G Riv at 1 SW of Paris > partial Farms and STOPS
Worker 6 completes the Chop of the G For at 1 NE of York
Worker 4 moves 1 N G (after it was Chopped) > 1 N G (NE + N of York)
Worker 5 moves 1 NW GH Gems For

Axe 3 moves to 1 London's Fur



This approach gives us the full weight of our army being applied at Hamburg. Depending upon how the battle goes and how Frederick moves his Units, we'd then be in position to heal, then strike at either Munich in the east or Cologne in the west. Munich next would be preferable, since Cologne doesn't have as many population points for Frederick to whip and we could use our Orleans defenders to help out with a later capture of Cologne alongside of any of the survivors of the battles for Hamburg and Munich.

After we've dealt with Germany (allowing Frederick to keep Berlin for now so that he can keep building Cities for us to capture later and because it's too well-defended for us to capture now), we'll have options of who to attack next, but I'm thinking that going after Alex in Athens will be a good next target after capturing Frederick's northern Cities, Cease Firing with Frederick, and then getting Open Borders with Frederick due to him still being at war with Alex (relying on the AI behaviour that they will Open Borders with a war ally, no matter how much of a jerk you were to them in the past).


After this turnset, we'll need to decide where to send our fleet of Galleys. At some point, they could be useful in a war against Stalin, helping us to capture some of his vulnerable coastal Cities. But, if our troops are going to head toward Alex, and we're likely to have a limited number of troops for a little while due to focusing on building Spies, it will be a bit of a fool's errand to declare war on Stalin--Stalin is also currently providing us our best Foreign Trade Routes.

That's not to say that we won't declare war on Russia at some point, but we need to figure out our future steps now, or least after the battle of Hamburg. Assuming that most of our land forces are decimated in attacking Frederick and Alex, it might be best to have sent our boats back west. We can build new troops to load onto our Galleys, load those troops quickly by having our boats near to our core area, then go for Lisbon.

While we're dealing with Alex, we could be a bit tricky by temporarily gifting a City to Joao (perhaps a captured Cologne?) and giving Joao Open Borders while our new Units (Military Units built after we build our Spies) sail into position, so that Joao might send his Workers out of his core area where we can capture them before he disbands them (BtS AIs love disbanding Workers that look like they have nowhere safe left to go). He'll also likely send out a couple of his City Defender Units, making it easier for us to capture Lisbon. We wouldn't give Joao enough time to get his Units to Cologne and thus his Units would probably end up teleporting to just south of Paris somewhere, where we could more easily capture his Workers and kill off his would-be-City-Defender Military Units.

We should also try to be ready with Settlers at that time (so, build Spies, then a new military force, then Settlers) to settle the vacuum left by Libson's disappearing Culture in Africa and to possibly resettle Oporto (if we raze it, due to it having such low Food where it is currently settled).


The other option would be to go after Russia next, and while I'd like to hit up Stalin at some point, we'll probably want to do so after we've had some time to build up Munich with City Walls and Axemen + Spearmen City Defenders to keep his army at bay while we sail around scooping up his Cities, but it's going to take a while to get up those defences at Munich. Therefore, it will probably be a waste of our fleet's time to sit around waiting until that time and we would likely be better off just going for Lisbon and then possibly Hatty.


Hatty has been quite useful in terms of teching--I'm not yet convinced that we should kill her off. Representation is nice for a small-sized empire that needs Happiness but can't sustain a lot of Military Police Units or for a well-developed empire that has many citizens which should become Specialists. When it comes time to being able to attack Hatty, our empire will be in a state that is between those two states. Meanwhile, The Pyramids are doing quite well under Hatty's control, with her leveraging Caste System and Representation to power through the tech tree.

It may make a lot of sense to gift Hatty Civil Service when we learn it and have her power her way through more techs on our behalf. Assuming that we wouldn't try to save Liberalism for Railroad, we'd have to self-tech 2000 Flasks just to earn 4000 Flasks--if she's nice enough to pick a tech that we need (we'd make sure that she has all of our techs first if we were going to let her self-tech Liberalism), we could trade for Liberalism (a non-monopoly tech) and steal the other tech from her.

Trading for Liberalism could be useful for running Free Religion, which offers a 10% empire-wide boost to Flasks. Of course, we don't need Scientific Method this game, so it's theoretically possible that we would capture The Spiral Minaret and The University of Sankore, build Temples and Monasteries of a given Religion (likely Islam, the Apostolic Palace's Religion), and benefit from having a State Religion that way. Realistically, though, those Wonders won't get completed in this game. The Apostolic Palace's Hammers appear regardless of whether you are running the Apostolic Palace's Religion as your State Religion, which is in contrast to The Spiral Minaret and The University of Sankore, which only work if you are running a State Religion and have also built the relevant Buildings that correspond to that State Religion. It's likely that Free Religion will be of more use to us.

It might also not make sense to go to war with Hatty just to get our City at 3 S of Paris back. She might just end up spamming Military Units if we do so, which would slow down her economy and would make it harder for us to capture any of her Cities that we choose to capture.

An option that we might want to keep open is building Cities around Hatty, Liberating them to her when we have forces in place to recapture them, declaring war, recapturing our Liberated Cities, and capturing her Wonder-containing Cities. Two possible purposes could be to get her up to Friendly status or else to keep her liking us sufficiently for us to still get Open Borders with her for the 20% Open Borders discount on any future tech stealing.

Assuming that we hope to keep open the option of winning via an Apostolic Palace Victory, we would need to capture that Wonder from Hatty at some point, but not necessarily until near the end of the game, if we feel that keeping Hatty around to boost out tech research will be the best approach to pushing our tech pace harder. At least at present, we certainly don't have the population points to hire a lot of Specialists, making The Pyramids of little use to us. Of course, one of the biggest challenges of this game is predicting exactly when something will be of use to us and preparing to get it by the time that it will be of use.

 

[Jersey Joe]

I mostly agree with the proposed PPP. Any Changes or questions I have are in red. Based on XO Cognac's turn 85 build I think you meant turns 83 and 84 to be a spy.

Diplo Policy
Christianity? No
Stop trading with another AI? No
Give a Resource? Yes (There isn't an enforced 10 turns of Peace for saying yes)
Peace deal or Open Borders? No--we should be the ones to decide when these deals happen
Give Horseback Riding? No
Give a Tech other than Horseback Riding? No to Frederick (since we'll be attacking him
soon), yes to anyone else
Join a war? No
Trade a tech for a tech and/or Gold? No--let's discuss tech trades and put them in a PPP

Reasons for stopping:
We meet a new AI;
One of our Cities is threatened;
Something in the plan sounds wrong;

Turn 83, 800 BC (Completing the turn)
Espionage Rate 100% (on Hatty)
Trade Currency to Joao for Meditation + 10 Gold
Do not Open Borders with Joao.

F6 and select Priesthood.

Trade Currency to Churchill for 10 Gold
Open Border with Churchill (if not worst enemy)

Open Borders with Hatty.

Paris
build: completes Horse Archer -> Chariot
Works: Fur, Deer, Wheat, Copper

XO Cognac
build: Settler or continue spy
Works: Fish, Cow, Horse, Stone

Orleans
build: 2-pop-whipped Horse Archer
Works: Fish, Cow

Lyons
build: Galley
Works: Fish, Fur

London
Turns ON Avoid Growth
build: Lighthouse
Works: Fish, Horse, Fur

York
build: Settler
Works: Fish, Stone

Argent:
build: Worker
Works: Iron

All Worker moves previously completed

Galley 2 moves 1 SE (3 S of Argent) > 1 S (NW + W of Hamburg)
HA 4 (1 SE of Argent) promotes to Shock?
HA 4 moves 1 SW GH deer

Galley 4 (on Orleans' Fish) Skips its turn

Galley 3 moves N > NE to Orleans' Fish
Galley 5 moves N > NE to Orleans' Fish

Chariot 2 Skips his turn at 1 W of Cologne
Chariot 1 Skips his turn at 1 W of Cologne
Chariot 4 moves to the G Riv Sheep that is 1 SW of Hamburg

Scout heads eastward in search of a Russian coastal City

Between turns watch for where Frederick's Units move.

Turn 84, 775 BC
Espionage Rate 100% (on Hatty)
Do not Open Borders with Joao.
If necessary, Open Border with Churchill (if not worst enemy)

Paris
build: completes Chariot > Settler
Works: Fur, Deer, Wheat, Copper

XO Cognac
build: Settler or Spy?
Works: Fish, Cow, Horse, Stone

Orleans
build: Completes Horse Archer > Axeman
Works: Fish, Cow

Lyons
build: Galley
Works: Fish, Fur

London
Turns OFF Avoid Growth
build: Completes Lighthouse > Monastery
Works: Fish, Horse, Fur

York
build: Settler
Works: Fish, Stone

Argent:
build: Worker
Works: Iron

Worker 1 builds road on stone
Worker 2 Mines GH Riv Wine
Worker 3 Chops the TunH For (1 SW of Argent)
Worker 4 Finishes Chop at 1 E of York
Worker 5 1 NW GH For (1N of the Fur)
Worker 6 Chops the G For at 1 NE of York

Galley 2 waits for HA 4
HA 4 moves onto Galley 2
Galley 2 (with HA 4 aboard) moves 1 S to Hamburg's Fish and waits

Chariot 2 (at 1 W of Cologne) moves NE G Sheep > NE onto Galley 2 (on Hamburg's Fish)
Galley 2 Skips its turn on Hamburg's Fish

Axe 4 (1 NE of Orleans) Promotes to Combat I (so that we don't forget to do so later, since he will be our stack defender against enemy Spearmen and shouldn't be used to actually attack Hamburg)
Axe 4 (1 NE of Orleans) moves 1 N Fish (to board one of the Galleys)

Orleans' new Horse Archer moves 1 NE G Riv > 1 N Fish (boards one of the Galleys)

Chariot 1 (at 1 W of Cologne) moves NW onto a Galley on Orleans' Fish

Confirm that there are 8 land Units aboard Galleys 1, 3, 4, and 5 (at Orleans' Fish)

Galley 1 moves from Orleans' Fish to NE > E (to 1 N of Cologne's G Sheep)
Galley 3 moves from Orleans' Fish to NE > E (to 1 N of Cologne's G Sheep)
Galley 4 moves from Orleans' Fish to NE > E (to 1 N of Cologne's G Sheep)
Galley 5 moves from Orleans' Fish to NE > E (to 1 N of Cologne's G Sheep)

The current location of Chariot 4 (at 1 SW of Hamburg) and Chariot 3 (at 1 W of Munich) should give us good visibility of Frederick's Units. Make note of which Units we see in Berlin, Munich, and on the nearby squares

Chariot 4 moves to the G For that is 2 E of Hamburg

Chariot 3 Skips its turn at 1 W of Munich

Paris' Chariot moves into Orleans

Spy 2 heads to Lyons

Axe 3 (in England) Skips his turn

Double-checking: London has Turned OFF Avoid Growth

Turn 85, 750 BC
Espionage Rate 100% (on Hatty)
Do not Open Borders with Joao.
If necessary, Open Border with Churchill (if not worst enemy)

Paris
build: Switch build from Settler to Spy
Works: Fur, Deer, Wheat, Copper

XO Cognac
build: Settler or Spy?
Works: Fish, Cow, Horse, Stone

Orleans
build: Completes Axeman > build Lighthouse (to capture overflow Hammers)
Works: Fish, Cow

Lyons
build: Switches from Galley to Chariot (we can plan to 2-pop-whip our Galley, then complete this Chariot to escort a Settler on its way to Africa)
Works: Fish, Fur

London
build: Switches from Monastery to Spy
Works: Fish, Horse, Fur

York
build: Settler
Works: Fish, Stone

Argent:
build: Worker
Works: Iron

Worker 1 moves to G Riv at 1 SW of Paris > partial Farms and STOPS
Worker 2 Mines GH Riv Wine
Worker 3 Chops the TunH For (1 SW of Argent)
Worker 4 Waits for worker 6 to finish chop, then moves 1 N G (after it was Chopped) > 1 N G (NE + N of York)
Worker 5 moves 1 NW GH Gems For
Worker 6 Completes Chop of the G For at 1 NE of York

Using Chariot 3's visibility, make note of which Units are in Munich and in Berlin

Make sure that Frederick doesn't have a Unit on the G Riv Cottage Road that is 1 S of Hamburg; if he does have a Unit there, stop play

Declare War on Frederick (do not try to take his Gold)

After we are at war with Frederick, unload the 10 Units from our 5 Galleys on the G Riv Cottage Road that is 1 S of Hamburg

After all 10 land Units have unloaded from our Galleys, Galley 2 can move 1 W to Hamburg's Fish (2 W of Hamburg)

Don't move Chariot 3 (who should have teleported to the G For at 2 E of Hamburg) and Chariot 4 (2 E of Hamburg) yet--let's discuss which Units we saw of Frederick's in the nearby area before moving our Chariots

Don't move the Units near Orleans yet (Orleans' new Axeman and Paris' new Chariot inside of Orleans)

Pause and upload Save here for discussion.

Axe 3 waiting till end of turn before moving to London's Fur

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Based on XO Cognac's turn 85 build I think you meant turns 83 and 84 to be a spy.

I suppose that it won't matter which one we build first, since we have 4 turns of Unhappiness and our plan is to 3-pop-whip the Settler so that the newly-built City can 1-pop-whip a build item before we gift the City away to Hatty.

If we were to wait until the Settler was a 2-pop-whipping action, there would be a slight edge to putting between 40 and 69 Hammers into the Settler first, when the Unhappy citizen gives us 2 Hammers per turn, then building the Spy later when the citizen is Happy.
I.e.
a) Settler first for 3 turns then Spy for 2 turns would mean that on the 5th turn, our Happy citizen would be worth + 2 Food + 2 Commerce
vs
b) Spy first for 2 turns and then Settler for 3 turns would mean that on the 5th turn, our Happy citizen would only be worth + 2 Commerce

But, since I don't think that we have time to wait for the Settler to be a 2-pop-whipping action, we're not going to end up seeing that difference, so please pick whichever micro option seems easiest for you to remember, with us putting 1 turn of Hammers into the Settler and the other 2 turns into building the Spy.

HA 4 (1 SE of Argent) promotes to Shock?

Sounds good.

If there's a Spearman defending, we'll want that Promo. If there's an Axeman defending, that Promotion will probably force an Archer to come up as the defender, which we also want, as it's better to have our Horse Archers engage an Archer than an Axeman.

Axemen will only come up as defenders against our Chariots once all of the Spearmen and Archers are somewhat wounded, and the more fights that we can get of Chariot vs Axeman, the better success we'll have in the fight.


Good luck!

 

[Jersey Joe]

I followed the PPP, but Fredrick played almost as if he too read the ppp. I stopped play before declaring war.

800BC
We trade Currency to Joao for Meditation and 10 gold.
We switch our research to priesthood.
Trade Currency to Churchillfor 10 gold.
Get Open Borders with Churchill.
Get Open Borders with Hatty

XO Cognac switches to Settler

Our units Observe the following groups of German Units:
Cologne Axeman combat1; Axeman combat1
Munich – Archer drill 1; Archer
Berlin Archer mountain 1; Axman combat1; spearman combat1; spearman; archer
Hamburg Axeman; Axeman; Archer;
2E of Munich Axeman combat1; Axeman combat1; spearman combat1
1NW of Berlin Axeman; spearman; Worker
2E of Berlin spearman

Between Turns Alex Asks us to Declare on Fred. We decline.

775BC

XO Cognac is building a Settler

750 BC
York citizens want to join English Empire. We decline.

Our ground units have not left the ships.

Our units Observe the following groups of German Units:
Cologne Axeman combat1; Axeman combat1
Munich – Archer drill 1; Archer
Berlin Spearman combat1; Archer mountain 1; Archer; Settler
Hamburg Axeman; Axeman; Axeman; Archer;
Axeman combat1; Axeman combat1; Spearman combat1; Spearman combat1; 1E of Munich
1NW of Berlin Axeman; Spearman; Worker Worker from sheep joined this group
Spearman 1S of our iron Mine
Also, I believe 1 worker is to the south of Berlin and a few German Axemen also went south.

Here is the save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/download.php?file=Xteam_SG023_BC0750_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

Here are the logs

Session Turn Log from 800 BC to 750 BC:

Spoiler :

Turn 83, 800 BC: Paris can hurry Chariot for 1&#8692; with 14&#8484; overflow and +1&#8676; for 54 turns.
Turn 83, 800 BC: XO Cognac can hurry Spy for 1&#8692; with 11&#8484; overflow and +1&#8676; for 44 turns.
Turn 83, 800 BC: Orleans has grown to size 4.
Turn 83, 800 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 20 &#8484; for London.
Turn 83, 800 BC: Paris will become unhappy on the next turn.
Turn 83, 800 BC: Hatshepsut is the worst enemy of Joao II.
Turn 83, 800 BC: Stalin is the worst enemy of Churchill.
Turn 83, 800 BC: Alexander is the worst enemy of Frederick, Hatshepsut.
Turn 83, 800 BC: Frederick is the worst enemy of Alexander.
Turn 83, 800 BC: Joao II will trade Meditation
Turn 83, 800 BC: Stalin will trade Cow, Wheat
Turn 83, 800 BC: Will Sign Open Borders: Hatshepsut, Joao II
Turn 83, 800 BC: You have discovered Meditation!
Turn 83, 800 BC: Paris will grow to size 5 on the next turn.
Turn 83, 800 BC: Orleans will grow to size 3 on the next turn.
Turn 83, 800 BC: You have trained a Horse Archer in Orleans. Work has now begun on a Axeman.

Turn 84, 775 BC: Paris has grown to size 5.
Turn 84, 775 BC: Paris has become unhappy.
Turn 84, 775 BC: Orleans has grown to size 3.
Turn 84, 775 BC: Orleans can hurry Axeman for 1&#8692; with 19&#8484; overflow and +1&#8676; for 34 turns.
Turn 84, 775 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 20 &#8484; for York.
Turn 84, 775 BC: Lyons will grow to size 3 on the next turn.
Turn 84, 775 BC: London will grow to size 4 on the next turn.

Turn 85, 750 BC: Lyons has grown to size 3.
Turn 85, 750 BC: London has grown to size 4.
Turn 85, 750 BC: London can hurry Christian Monastery for 2&#8692; with 26&#8484; overflow and +1&#8676; for 15 turns.
Turn 85, 750 BC: Hatshepsut is the worst enemy of Alexander.
Turn 85, 750 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 20 &#8484; for York.

AutoLog

Spoiler :

Turn 83/500 (800 BC) [26-Jul-2016 05:41:13]
Tech traded to Joao II (Portugal): Currency
Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Meditation
Research begun: Priesthood (77 Turns)
Tech traded to Churchill (England): Currency
XO Cognac begins: Settler (6 turns)
Horse Archer 4 (Paris) promoted: Shock
0% Research: 0 per turn
100% Espionage: 103 per turn
0% Gold: -29 per turn, 137 in the bank

After End Turn:
Paris grows to size 5
Paris finishes: Chariot
Orleans grows to size 3
Orleans finishes: Horse Archer
London finishes: Lighthouse

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Churchill (England) towards Napoleon REAL (France), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Hatshepsut (Egypt) towards Joao II (Portugal), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 84/500 (775 BC) [26-Jul-2016 06:03:36]
Diplomacy (War Request): Alexander (Greece) asks Napoleon REAL (France) to declare war on Frederick (Germany); Napoleon REAL REFUSES.
Paris begins: Settler (7 turns)
London begins: Christian Monastery (9 turns)
Axeman 4 (Paris) promoted: Combat I
0% Research: 0 per turn
100% Espionage: 104 per turn
0% Gold: -36 per turn, 108 in the bank

After End Turn:
Orleans finishes: Axeman
Lyons grows to size 3
London grows to size 4

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Frederick (Germany) towards Alexander (Greece), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'
Attitude Change: Stalin (Russia) towards Alexander (Greece), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 85/500 (750 BC) [26-Jul-2016 06:39:23]
Orleans begins: Lighthouse (4 turns)

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Great job, Jersey Joe! I don't see a problem with the current situation. Actually, it looks to be about as good as we could have hoped.

I was convinced from Cactus Pete's turnset that we'd face at least 1 Spearman in Hamburg, but it must have wandered out of Hamburg.

While those Units of Frederick's that are 1 W of Munich are scary, we have our Units in position to deal with them.

We can simply have the Unpromoted Chariot 4 (2 E of Hamburg) pull a tactic out of Cactus Pete's book and move 1 SW to Pillage the G Road, after declaring war, of course.

That way, the stack of Units at 1 W of Munich will be out of the fight, or at least won't be fighting on favourable terms. There would no longer be a Road that they could use to attack our stack and there would no longer be a Road that they could use to go into Hamburg. We'd only have to defend against them after we'd captured Hamburg, when all of our forces are concentrated in one location and we would have the defender's advantage of a mixed stack of Unit types. Simple.

Hamburg's defenders are mostly Axemen, which is exactly the situation that we'd love to see. At most, +1 Archer, +1 Axeman, or +1 Spearman could get whipped and appear in Hamburg in addition to the 1 Archer and 3 Axemen that are already there.

If it's another Axeman, we can laugh, as we can lead with whatever type of Horse Archer will engage the Archer (probably only the Shock Horse Archer, but first check if the Combat I Horse Archer or the Unpromoted Horse Archer would also have the Archer as a defender and attack the Archer with them instead if the Archer will come up as the defender), and if we can wound the Archer, we can go in with our Chariots, wounding the Archer further and then get Chariot vs Axemen fights.

If it's an Archer, we can see if an Unpromoted Horse Archer or a Combat I Horse Archer will go up against an Archer and if not (check for every battle, since the differences in Fortification bonus for the 2 Archers might give different results--you can check who will be the defender simply by selecting an attacker and then the Unit who will be the defender will be the Unit that you see defending the City), then we can see if our Shock Horse Archer can go up against an Archer--try to engage the Archers. If we manage to kill or severely wound an Archer, and our other Horse Archers will come up as attackers against Archers (I doubt it), then we are home free. Realistically, our other Horse Archers would come up against Axemen defenders, so we could try using our two Combat I Chariots to try to wound the unwounded Archer sufficiently so that Axemen would come up as defenders against the rest of our Chariots, then use our Unpromoted Chariots to attack the Axemen, then finish off the Archers with our Horse Archers. If our two Combat I Chariots attack and lose badly and then it's still an Archer defending against our Chariots, we'll just have to go in with our Horse Archers against the Axemen defenders.

For a Spearman, we could probably unintuitively lead with our Combat I Horse Archer (instead of our Shock Horse Archer) since any mounted Unit would likely get a Spearman as its defender. Then, if our Shock Horse Archer comes up against the Archer, we attack the Archer. But, if the Shock Horse Archer still would come up against the Spearman, we attack with an Unpromoted Horse Archer, then see if we can get the Archer to come up as a defender against our Shock Horse Archer, attacking with yet another Unpromoted Horse Archer against the Spearman if the Spearman is still defending, before following-up with our Shock Horse Archer against the Archer. Once we've wounded the Spearman and the Archer, it is hoped that our Combat I Chariots can continue to wound them sufficiently that the Axemen would come up as City Defenders against our Chariots, at which point we throw our Chariots at the Axemen, then follow-up with our remaining Units.


In all cases, our Axeman could be the very last attacker, if he has really good odds of winning--we don't want to risk him dying, and we want him to end up inside of Hamburg. In fact, all Units should end up inside of Hamburg, with only the Axeman being unable to get into Hamburg if he attacks a Unit that isn't the last City Defender. If the Axeman can't get really good odds (98% or higher) on the last battle, don't use him for fighting, unless we somehow did so badly in the fighting that he's the only Unit who hasn't attacked, in which case of course we'd attack with him, then stuff the City full with our already-attacked, 2-movement-point Units.

With us having 10 attackers, minus a Pillaging, sacrificial-bait Chariot, plus an Axeman, it is unlikely but possible that the Axeman would be required to attack.


So, what about Orleans? Well, we could try to bait Frederick to go for it, which would put his Units out of position. In an earlier test game, if I stuffed Orleans full of Units, he would build up a stack on top of our Iron but not Pillage it--it's the BtS AI's version of "choking," and it tends to be a horrible tactic, but that's what they do. Meanwhile, if I left Orleans having a weak defender, he'd send more Units toward the City.

So, what we could do is move the Axeman and Chariot out of the City, say, to the GH Mine that is 1 S of Orleans, leaving our Warrior inside of Orleans to act as bait. Frederick might "see his chance," since he can cheat and see which defenders are in Orleans, and he might either send more Units toward Orleans, leaving Munich easier to capture, or he might leave Cologne more lightly-defended, making Cologne easier to capture. Going to defend our Iron would be quite risky, since Axemen from Cologne could attack the Iron, with possibly both of them attacking if a Unit gets whipped there, and if our Axeman dies, then our Chariot would be a sitting duck for Frederick's Spearman. Even if our Axeman just got badly wounded, the Spearman might still attack and kill our wounded Axeman, since that's how the AI plays. Unless we're fighting to capture a City, it's better to engage the enemy only when the odds are highly in our favour; losing a couple of Units just to kill off a couple of AI Units is a horrible trade, especially when facing 12 AI opponents--getting a City out of the deal significantly alters the equation to the point that losing Units becomes expected and worthwhile.


Now's a good time to decide if we want to go hardcore for our Spies or if we want to delay the Spies slightly in favour of getting out a couple of more Military Units.


Here's what I'm thinking:
Orleans builds an Axeman for a turn, then builds a Horse Archer, 2-pop-whips the Horse Archer, then soon has an extra Horse Archer and an Axeman. I'd originally thought about building a partial Lighthouse, 2-pop-whipping a Spy, completing the Lighthouse, and then manually completing another Spy.

Paris and XO Cognac could each build a Chariot instead of a Spy, to be completed when we 3-pop-whip our Settlers.

That approach gives us 4 more Military Units with which to work.

We'd delay our tech theft date, so we'd plan to send 2 Settlers to Africa (minimally, there's Joao's unused Fish to settle by, and if there aren't other City locations, at least Hatty won't be settling elsewhere, and if there's only a really horrible location, then we can leave our Settler in position to gift and Liberate her a City after we've gifted her a City at 3 S of Paris later) and we could then use our 3rd Settler for settling at 3 S of Paris--to be 3-pop-whipped a bit later.

Lyons switches to building a Chariot before we put more Hammers into the Galley (since we have 18 Hammers in the Galley now and any more Hammers in the Galley would make it a 1-pop-whipping action), then 2-pop-whips the Galley, then completes the Chariot with overflow Hammers, so that we have that Chariot and a Settler heading toward Hatty. The XO Cognac Settler can come a bit later, and we'd later 3-pop-whip a different Settler out of Paris in order to build a City at 3 S of Paris.

We'd still stick with building our Spies in London, with maybe York adding a Spy to the mix.


This way, if we lose a lot of Units taking Hamburg, we'll still have some forces to help with capturing a second German City, after which point we could consider Cease Firing.

Attitude Change: Frederick (Germany) towards Alexander (Greece), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'

With this development, we should be able to get Open Borders with Frederick without needing to declare war on Alex, possibly with a bit of Fair and Forthright Trading of tech-gifting to Frederick, at which point we could pay to end the war between those two so that Frederick might be more willing to send out his Settler Party and would hopefully empty Berlin of any Spearmen (we can hope, anyway).


Meanwhile, our Spy 2 (it finally arrived in Lyons) can head eastward to come toward Berlin from the southern side, to sit on Frederick's Copper.


After the wars have been resolved, we send our forces at Alex, capture Athens, then strike at Berlin from the south, possibly using the Spy to Sabotage the Copper or if it fails then at a minimum Pillaging the Copper, if not capturing Berlin itself, at which point in time we should be stealing our techs and not really caring exactly when we capture more Cities as long as we able to prevent Germany from building more Melee Units.

Or, after Athens, we simply head to our waiting Galleys and strike at Lisbon.


It's not a perfect plan because we don't know what our battle losses will be like, so we'll just have to adapt our strategy as things play out.


I'm not totally convinced that delaying our Spies is the way to go. I think that we could certainly plan to minimally capture Hamburg before getting a Cease Fire with Frederick without needing to build any additional Military Units, hopefully also capturing a second City before Cease Firing, and just stay completely focused on our tech theft plan. But, it's arguable that having a couple of more Military Units around could make the difference in capturing another City or two, which does lead to its own set of benefits, especially if we count Athens as one of those Cities.

The extra Military Units might not end up playing much of a role, although the two extra Units out of Orleans would probably assist with the capture of Cologne, and the Paris Chariot plus the XO Cognac Chariot would probably help with assuring that we have enough forces remaining to take on Athens.

Delaying our tech theft does delay when we'll start on Civil Service, but it's also arguable that with more City Capture Gold, we'd be able to get to self-tech Civil Service just as quickly or even faster than without that City Capture Gold.

Fredrick played almost as if he too read the ppp.

That's both hilarious and scary at once! It's a good thing that he didn't read Cactus Pete's earlier comment about Pillaging a Road.

 

[Jersey Joe]

I agree with the plan to capture Hamburg. I like 2 military units out of Orleans. However, I have this feeling that time is getting short (if we want golden laurels).

I believe that the risk of stealing tech without delay is worth the reward. Overflow from Orleans' 2 pop whipping a HA goes into a spy. Also (this turn 85), Paris and XO Cognac switch to spies to grow to size 6 for 3 pop whipping settlers with overflow into spies. Lyons switches to spy.

Edit After thought: Will not we have 11 units (10 from boats and chariot from 1 east of Munich) to attack with?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I believe that the risk of stealing tech without delay is worth the reward.

Roger that. One Horse Archer out of Orleans by itself may not actually do a whole lot for us, since we're facing Axemen (where Chariots are better) and Spearmen (where Axemen are better). So, let's just push the envelope and not worry about Orleans making more Military Units, dump Hammers into a Lighthouse (it pays for itself pretty quickly with additional whipping power over time), then build a Spy which can be 2-pop-whipped. If necessary, the overflow Hammers from that whipped Spy can get put into a Chariot or an Axeman if we find that Orleans is under siege; otherwise those overflow Hammers can go into finishing off the Lighthouse and then into another Spy.

We can stick with the plan to build Spies in Paris and XO Cognac, too. We should still get Chariot out of Lyons by 2-pop-whipping the Galley instead of 1-pop-whipping the Galley, to have a Unit to escort our Settler that goes on a Galley. The Chariot is essentially free, since it comes out of the extra Hammers from 2-pop-whipping, minus the cost of not working an extra square for some turns, but plus the benefit of not having an Unhappy citizen sooner from 1-pop-whipping twice.

Will not we have 11 units (10 from boats and chariot from 1 east of Munich) to attack with?

Here's what I was trying to say:
We have 12 Units
1 Chariot is going to Pillage and act as bait; we can't expect it to survive with 2 Spearmen adjacent to it
1 Unit is the Axeman, which we really can't afford to lose, so that Frederick doesn't send his Spearmen at a captured Hamburg, so that Axeman probably out of the fight--treat him like a Super Medic, only fighting the last battle if it's a sure win and so that he'd arrive in Hamburg on the turn that we capture Hamburg (Turn 86)
That leaves 10 Units as the primary attackers at Hamburg

Paris' Settler should get whipped on the same turn that Lyons whips its Galley, which should be 3 turns from now. The Lyons-built Chariot can then catch up with the Galley on the following turn.

XO Cognac's Settler should get whipped on Turn 88, according to the end of Message 824.

We'll need to decide at some point whether to keep growing Paris and XO Cognac or else stagnate them a bit while building the Settlers. With the Gems coming online very soon, I think that continued growth will win out, as continued growth means being able to whip yet again sooner and being able to work 4 power squares again in XO Cognac that much sooner (although a case might be made for 2-pop-whipping the Settler in XO Cognac).


Paris can also work the Cow this turn, with the thought that it should work it this turn or next turn, but next turn may or may not see Frederick going for Orleans' Iron, so if we stole the Cow next turn, Orleans would only have 2 improved squares to work, whereas if we steal the Cow this turn, Orleans will have 3 improved squares to work on this turn and next turn, regardless of what Frederick does.


Since we're not going to build the extra Military Units, and we're going to try to keep the original timeline with the tech thefts, Spy 2 can stay in Lyons for now.

 

[Jersey Joe]

Agreed. Will report back after Capturing Hamburg

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Before fighting a battle, feel free to select one of our Units, hold down the Alt key, and hover your mouse over top of the defending Unit. Look at the two numbers for the total hits required for one side or the other to win the battle.

If, for example, when selecting a Combat I Chariot, we see the hits as 6, 5 and we also see the hits as 6, 5 when selecting a Chariot without a Promotion, and the plan is to attack with a Chariot as the next attacker, then attack with the Unit with the lower amount of Promotions (the Unpromoted Chariot, in this case), which saves the Promoted Unit for a later battle where the number of hits might change in our favour by using a Promoted Unit later.

Just be wary of the fact that with the Alt key pressed down, when clicking on a Leader's Name or Civ in the Scoreboard on the main game screen (i.e. the list of Leaders + Civs at the bottom right of the screen, above the mini-map), we would automatically declare war on that Civ without a confirmation prompt. So, before fighting the battle, it might be a wise precaution to click on our Leader's Name and/or Civ's Name in the Scoreboard so as to minimize the Scoreboard, so that a misclick on a Leader/Civ with the Alt key held down won't be possible.


After thinking about it some more, I'm quite hesitant for us to even attack with the Axeman at all--even with 99% odds of winning, if we get wounded in the fight, then we'd just be inviting Frederick to throw his Units at a captured Hamburg, rather than sending his Units toward Alex. We might then lose a couple of our Military Units for no noticeable gain. So, I'd strongly suggest not fighting with the Axeman at all, unless all 10 of our other attackers have failed to capture Hamburg and we have no other choice.


Suggested PPP

Turn 85, 750 BC

Paris switches Coper -> Cow
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Cow, and Fur

Paris builds Spy

XO Cognac switches Stone -> Copper
XO Cognac works: Fish, Cow, Horse, and Copper

XO Cognac builds Spy

Orleans works: Fish, Iron, and GH Mine

Orleans builds Lighthouse

Lyons builds Chariot

London builds Spy


Declare war on Frederick (this step must happen before we move our Military Units)

Unload the 10 land Units from our Galleys on the G Riv Cottage Road at 1 S of Hamburg

Once all 10 land Units have been unloaded, Galley 2 can head 1 W toward London

Chariot 4 moves to the G Road at 1 SE of Hamburg (1 S of the G Sheep) > Pillage the Road

Chariot 3 moves to join our stack of 10 land Units


Axe 5 (in Orleans) moves 1 SE G Road and Skips its turn (to dare the Spearman to attack us)
Chariot 8 (in Orleans) moves 1 S GH Mine


Worker 3 finishes the TunH For Chop at 1 SW of Argent


Axe 3 (in England) can move to our Fur

Spoiler :

That spot is within our Cultural Borders (for Unit Supply reasons), is within range of garissoning London when we need a Military Police Unit, and we couldn't attack Churchill again for another 6 turns even if we wanted to.

Turn 86

Paris switches Cow -> Copper
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, and Copper

XO Cognac works: Fish, Cow, Horse, and Stone

Orleans steals back the Cow and works it

Orleans builds a Horse Archer

Lyons switches the G For to the GH Riv Wine Mine

London 2-pop-whips the Spy
London works: Fish and Horse

York 1-pop-whips the Settler
York works: Fish


Do the fighting at Hamburg. Feel free to pause play and ask for help if you want, but I think that you can handle the fighting.

After we've captured Hamburg, we should stuff all of our nearby surviving Military Units into Hamburg for a couple of turns to heal. With all of our Units hiding in Hamburg behind our Axeman, enemy Spearmen are less likely to try chasing around any of our mounted Units and thus we can hope that enemy Spearmen will head toward Alex.


Worker 1 moves to the G For Road at 1 NE of Paris, partial Chops, and STOPS
Worker 3 moves into Argent on his way to the Tun Deer For at 1 N of Argent
Worker 4 moves 1 N GH For (which he will Chop)
Worker 5 builds a Road on the GH Gems For
Worker 6 moves 1 NE G Riv For (on his way to the Gems)


EDIT: We have another page in the thread now...

 

[Jersey Joe]

Dhoom, I played the turn before I saw your last post. I believe the plans are the same, except that I moved both the Axeman and Chariot onto the mined hill.

750 BC(continued)
Paris switches build from Settler to Spy and switches from Copper to Cow
XO Cognac switches build from Settler to Spy and switches from Stone to Copper
Orleans building Lighthouse, switches from Cow to Mined hill
Lyons switches to Chariot
London switches to Spy

We Declare War on Fredrick

Chariot 3 moves to 1S of Hamburg
Chariot 4 pillages road 1SE of Hamburg

Our attack forces unload from Galleys to 1S of Hamburg

Chariot 4 killed by Spearman

725BC
Combat1 HA killed by Spearman but does a decent amount of damage (1.8/4)
Combat1+Shock HA kills Archer
Chariot kills wounded Spearman
Chariot kills Axeman
Chariot kills Axeman
Chariot kills Axeman We Capture Hamburg.
All Troops that won a battle move in Hamburg.

Our Unmoved Troops:
2 unpromoted HA, 2 Combat1 Chariots, 1 Axeman

Target of opportunity wounded German Spearman (3.5/4) 1SE of Hamburg.

Axeman has 99.47% chance of victory, but could then be easily killed by counter attack from Munich.

However, our victorious troops have discovered Block Brau and invite the troops outside of Hamburg to join then for a drink. (added after reading your post)

Only fought the battle need to develop rest of PPP.

Here is the save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/download.php?file=Xteam_SG023_BC0725_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Jersey Joe]

Session Turn Log from 750 BC to 725 BC:

Spoiler :

Turn 85, 750 BC: Lyons has grown to size 3.
Turn 85, 750 BC: London has grown to size 4.
Turn 85, 750 BC: London can hurry Christian Monastery for 2&#8692; with 26&#8484; overflow and +1&#8676; for 15 turns.
Turn 85, 750 BC: Hatshepsut is the worst enemy of Alexander.
Turn 85, 750 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 20 &#8484; for York.
Turn 85, 750 BC: Hatshepsut is the worst enemy of Joao II, Alexander.
Turn 85, 750 BC: Stalin is the worst enemy of Churchill.
Turn 85, 750 BC: Alexander is the worst enemy of Frederick, Hatshepsut.
Turn 85, 750 BC: Stalin will trade Cow, Wheat
Turn 85, 750 BC: Will Sign Open Borders: Joao II
Turn 85, 750 BC: Deal Canceled: Open Borders to Frederick for Open Borders
Turn 85, 750 BC: You have declared war on Frederick!
Turn 85, 750 BC: Frederick refuses to talk.
Turn 85, 750 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 20 &#8484; for Argent.
Turn 85, 750 BC: Frederick's Spearman (4.40) vs Napoleon REAL's Chariot 4 (XO Cognac) (2.00)
Turn 85, 750 BC: Combat Odds: 99.4%
Turn 85, 750 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 85, 750 BC: (Combat: -100%)
Turn 85, 750 BC: Napoleon REAL's Chariot 4 (XO Cognac) is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 85, 750 BC: Napoleon REAL's Chariot 4 (XO Cognac) is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 85, 750 BC: Frederick's Spearman is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 85, 750 BC: Napoleon REAL's Chariot 4 (XO Cognac) is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 85, 750 BC: Napoleon REAL's Chariot 4 (XO Cognac) is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 85, 750 BC: Frederick's Spearman has defeated Napoleon REAL's Chariot 4 (XO Cognac)!
Turn 85, 750 BC: While defending, your Chariot 4 (XO Cognac) was destroyed by a German Spearman!

Turn 86, 725 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Orleans!
Turn 86, 725 BC: Paris can hurry Spy for 2&#8692; with 30&#8484; overflow and +1&#8676; for 51 turns.
Turn 86, 725 BC: XO Cognac can hurry Spy for 1&#8692; with 18&#8484; overflow and +1&#8676; for 41 turns.
Turn 86, 725 BC: Orleans can hurry Lighthouse for 1&#8692; with 26&#8484; overflow and +1&#8676; for 32 turns.
Turn 86, 725 BC: Lyons can hurry Chariot for 1&#8692; with 6&#8484; overflow and +1&#8676; for 41 turns.
Turn 86, 725 BC: London will become unhappy on the next turn.
Turn 86, 725 BC: London can hurry Spy for 2&#8692; with 36&#8484; overflow and +1&#8676; for 14 turns.
Turn 86, 725 BC: York can hurry Settler for 1&#8692; with 24&#8484; overflow and +1&#8676; for 15 turns.
Turn 86, 725 BC: You are the worst enemy of Frederick.
Turn 86, 725 BC: Frederick is the worst enemy of Alexander.
Turn 86, 725 BC: Napoleon REAL's Horse Archer 6 (Paris) (6.60) vs Frederick's Spearman (8.00)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Combat Odds: 26.8%
Turn 86, 725 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 86, 725 BC: (Combat: +100%)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Frederick's Spearman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Napoleon REAL's Horse Archer 6 (Paris) is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Napoleon REAL's Horse Archer 6 (Paris) is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Frederick's Spearman is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Napoleon REAL's Horse Archer 6 (Paris) is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Napoleon REAL's Horse Archer 6 (Paris) is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Frederick's Spearman is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Napoleon REAL's Horse Archer 6 (Paris) is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Frederick's Spearman has defeated Napoleon REAL's Horse Archer 6 (Paris)!
Turn 86, 725 BC: Your Horse Archer 6 (Paris) has died trying to attack a Spearman!
Turn 86, 725 BC: Napoleon REAL's Horse Archer 4 (Paris) (6.60) vs Frederick's Archer (5.25)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Combat Odds: 75.3%
Turn 86, 725 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 86, 725 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 86, 725 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Frederick's Archer is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Napoleon REAL's Horse Archer 4 (Paris) is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Frederick's Archer is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Frederick's Archer is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Frederick's Archer is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Napoleon REAL's Horse Archer 4 (Paris) is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Napoleon REAL's Horse Archer 4 (Paris) is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Napoleon REAL's Horse Archer 4 (Paris) is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Frederick's Archer is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Napoleon REAL's Horse Archer 4 (Paris) has defeated Frederick's Archer!
Turn 86, 725 BC: Your Horse Archer 4 (Paris) has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 86, 725 BC: Napoleon REAL's Chariot 1 (Lyons) (4.00) vs Frederick's Spearman (3.68)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Combat Odds: 80.6%
Turn 86, 725 BC: (Combat: +100%)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Frederick's Spearman is hit for 16 (30/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Frederick's Spearman is hit for 16 (14/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Frederick's Spearman is hit for 16 (0/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Napoleon REAL's Chariot 1 (Lyons) has defeated Frederick's Spearman!
Turn 86, 725 BC: Your Chariot 1 (Lyons) has destroyed a Spearman!
Turn 86, 725 BC: Napoleon REAL's Chariot 5 (Lyons) (4.00) vs Frederick's Axeman (2.85)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Combat Odds: 88.0%
Turn 86, 725 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 86, 725 BC: (Class Attack: -100%)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Frederick's Axeman is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Frederick's Axeman is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Napoleon REAL's Chariot 5 (Lyons) is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Napoleon REAL's Chariot 5 (Lyons) is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Napoleon REAL's Chariot 5 (Lyons) is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Frederick's Axeman is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Napoleon REAL's Chariot 5 (Lyons) is hit for 16 (36/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Frederick's Axeman is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Napoleon REAL's Chariot 5 (Lyons) is hit for 16 (20/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Napoleon REAL's Chariot 5 (Lyons) is hit for 16 (4/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Frederick's Axeman is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Napoleon REAL's Chariot 5 (Lyons) has defeated Frederick's Axeman!
Turn 86, 725 BC: Your Chariot 5 (Lyons) has destroyed a Axeman!
Turn 86, 725 BC: Napoleon REAL's Chariot 6 (XO Cognac) (4.00) vs Frederick's Axeman (2.85)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Combat Odds: 88.0%
Turn 86, 725 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 86, 725 BC: (Class Attack: -100%)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Frederick's Axeman is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Napoleon REAL's Chariot 6 (XO Cognac) is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Napoleon REAL's Chariot 6 (XO Cognac) is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Frederick's Axeman is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Frederick's Axeman is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Frederick's Axeman is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Napoleon REAL's Chariot 6 (XO Cognac) is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Frederick's Axeman is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Napoleon REAL's Chariot 6 (XO Cognac) has defeated Frederick's Axeman!
Turn 86, 725 BC: Your Chariot 6 (XO Cognac) has destroyed a Axeman!
Turn 86, 725 BC: Napoleon REAL's Chariot 7 (Lyons) (4.00) vs Frederick's Axeman (2.50)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Combat Odds: 95.6%
Turn 86, 725 BC: (Class Attack: -100%)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Frederick's Axeman is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Frederick's Axeman is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Frederick's Axeman is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Napoleon REAL's Chariot 7 (Lyons) is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Frederick's Axeman is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Napoleon REAL's Chariot 7 (Lyons) has defeated Frederick's Axeman!
Turn 86, 725 BC: Your Chariot 7 (Lyons) has destroyed a Axeman!
Turn 86, 725 BC: You have captured Hamburg!!!

Autolog

Spoiler :

Turn 85/500 (750 BC) [27-Jul-2016 00:50:59]
Paris begins: Spy (6 turns)
XO Cognac begins: Spy (3 turns)
Lyons begins: Chariot (10 turns)
London begins: Spy (5 turns)
Napoleon REAL (France) declares war on Frederick (Germany)
A Road near Munich was destroyed by French Chariot 4 (XO Cognac)
Horse Archer 6 (Paris) promoted: Combat I
0% Research: 0 per turn
100% Espionage: 104 per turn
0% Gold: -38 per turn, 72 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
While defending in German territory at Munich, Chariot 4 (XO Cognac) loses to German Spearman (3.48/4) (Prob Victory: 0.6%)
Attitude Change: Frederick (Germany) towards Napoleon REAL (France), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'
Attitude Change: Frederick (Germany) towards Alexander (Greece), from 'Furious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Hatshepsut (Egypt) towards Joao II (Portugal), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Alexander (Greece) towards Napoleon REAL (France), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 86/500 (725 BC) [27-Jul-2016 01:24:26]
While attacking, Horse Archer 6 (Paris) escapes from German Spearman (Prob Victory: 26.8%)
While attacking in German territory at Hamburg, Horse Archer 6 (Paris) loses to German Spearman (1.84/4) (Prob Victory: 26.8%)
While attacking, Horse Archer 4 (Paris) decimates German Archer (Prob Victory: 75.3%)
While attacking in German territory at Hamburg, Horse Archer 4 (Paris) (1.92/6) defeats German Archer (Prob Victory: 75.3%)
While attacking, Chariot 1 (Lyons) decimates German Spearman (Prob Victory: 80.6%)
While attacking in German territory at Hamburg, Chariot 1 (Lyons) (4.00/4) defeats German Spearman (Prob Victory: 80.6%)
While attacking, Chariot 5 (Lyons) decimates German Axeman (Prob Victory: 88.0%)
While attacking in German territory at Hamburg, Chariot 5 (Lyons) (0.16/4) defeats German Axeman (Prob Victory: 88.0%)
While attacking, Chariot 6 (XO Cognac) decimates German Axeman (Prob Victory: 88.0%)
While attacking in German territory at Hamburg, Chariot 6 (XO Cognac) (2.08/4) defeats German Axeman (Prob Victory: 88.0%)
While attacking, Chariot 7 (Lyons) decimates German Axeman (Prob Victory: 95.6%)
While attacking in German territory at Hamburg, Chariot 7 (Lyons) (3.40/4) defeats German Axeman (Prob Victory: 95.6%)
Captured Hamburg (Frederick)
Hamburg begins: Granary (61 turns)