SGOTM 23 - Xteam

[neilmeister]

My original thinking was based around making sure we get the cow at all costs, but it led to the sub-optimal pitting our culture against Churchills.

With the tiles we see, 1E is clearly the best capital location, lots of food, lots of hills (with bonus commerce on them) and an abundance of riverside grass for cottages.

If we do settle 1E we will have the option of sharing the wheat/deer with our second & third cities.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I think Glight is not a major issue as we can build it anyway if needed.

With 12 AIs, I wouldn't leave it until City 3. There are a lot of setup costs to be able to build it, and getting a City settled and growing it are some of those required setup costs. So, if we want to be serious about keeping open the possibility of building The Great Lighthouse, we need to plan to be able to settle one of our first two Cities on the coast... and, after Turn 9 or Turn 10, we can know that we can safely abandon that plan, and can instead focus on rushing Churchill, since the map will not be favouring The Great Lighthouse and Churchill will be attackable without needing a fleet of boats plus a stack of Military Units.

For a coastal capital location, I like Purple X the best, but I lost a bit of love for it when finding out that it will only have 4 GH squares instead of 5 of them. A 5th one makes a difference, as then one could get up to 20 base Hammers per turn by hiring an Engineer Specialist (actually, 21 base Hammers per turn) in order to have a City that is good at pumping out Wonders. Plus, pigswill really doesn't like that location, and I'd rather that we all get on board with our capital location's choice.

The other primary locations are Yellow X, aka "neilmeister north," and Red X, aka "conquer the Fish."

Spoiler The Settling map again :

Yellow X gets us Cow, Deer, and 1 GH square, but misses out on the Fur. It also takes us 1 extra turn to settle relative to all of our other discussed choices.

The thing with Yellow X is that it brings us an option that mixes possibilities: If we win the Cow in a Cultural battle, then we probably don't want The Great Lighthouse. If we don't have to battle for the Cow at all, then it would have been better to settle 1 W of there at the Red X.


Red X has the potential to be great, with Fish that no other team may get for a long time, the potential for Cow, Fur, 1 more Forest than Yellow X for Chopping out The Great Lighthouse, and plenty of G Riv squares to Cottage (or Farm).

The issue that I have with going for Red X is that if Churchill is on the same landmass as us, Red X really sucks, as it means that we won't get the Cow and we will have settled coastally in a game where we probably won't want The Great Lighthouse.

So, if someone knows a way to predict whether Churchill is on an island or not (I can't think of a way besides the absolutely forbidden "flying camera" tactic--do not use that, as it is forbidden to use it), then we can strongly consider Red X if we can conclusively say that Churchill is on an island, as it will be a great spot to settle in that case, earning us the Fish when every other team who doesn't settle there can't get the Fish but will get the Cow.

Waiting 1 turn to settle won't actually give us the info that we seek--we would have to wait until roughly Turn 9 to get our answer.


So, with all of that said, it sounds as though we would be best off making the decision about whether or not to settle a coastal City for our City 2, after we know whether Churchill is on an island or not.

If he's not on an island, we'll have our in-land capital and can settle our second City anywhere (i.e. not necessarily coastal) and can instead focus on being at a location with Food and possibly some G Riv squares on which to build Farms, so that we can get to work on hiring 2 Scientist Specialists in two separate Cities each for our Engineering Lightbulb.


My concern with Green X is that it is not coastal AND it does not grab us the Wheat. I would not want to leave the Wheat for City 3, as then we'd be falling behind other teams who got the Wheat in City 1 or City 2. Essentially, earning the Cow but not using the Wheat doesn't put us ahead.

To me, going for Green X is deciding on going for the Engineering Lightbulb path, since we'd want to settle City 2 by the Wheat, probably at the Yellow Circle or the Blue Circle. I'm okay with that route if it is what we all decide to do. But, I'm saying that we also don't have to make that decision now by settling our capital with the Wheat in our big fat cross, then leaving open the option for making City 2 coastal, as pigswill has shown is a valid option for still being able to build The Great Lighthouse (but only if we know that we actually want to build it).


There are many spots to settle in order to get the Wheat (and the Deer).

Currently, I am leaning toward 1 N because I think that it hedges our bets well--if Churchill is on an island, we get a 3-Food capital. We can also then afford to share the Cow with City 2, settled 2 E of the G Cow, as then City 2 can grow quickly by immediately working a pre-improved Pastured Cow, while also settling 1 E of the Purple X to grab one more GH square and more Forests, from what zoomed-in fog-gazing tells us.

If Churchill is on our landmass, we'll have made space to settle in the south at the Blue Circle for a Cottage Helper City that has low Maintenance, gets the second Fur within our Cultural Borders right away, can share the Wheat to grow when the capital is building Settlers or Workers, and gets to make use of those GH squares 3 S of the Wheat and 1 SW + 1 S of the Wheat. Once we capture London using Axes/Swords (or Cats and Archers, if need be), we will unlock the location 2 E of the G Cow that pigswill settled on, which won't be used to build the by-then-built-by-an-AI The Great Lighthouse but will be used just to make decent use of the land and to provide another Cottage Helper City with good production.

If we settle close to start and Chill isn't on an island we lose cow, where do we put our second city?

Anywhere, really, as we no longer care about settling a coastal City. I'd probably suggest a Cottage Helper City, to keep Maintenance low during the first part of the game.

The inverse question is also worth asking: If we don't settle by the Wheat and we don't settle coastally (say, if we go with Green X), and Churchill is on an island, where do we settle to get Wheat + coastal for City 2? I only see one location--on the south-eastern Fur. The big challenge there is that if we want the Wheat to be pre-improved for City 2 to use, then a) We'll want to spread Christianity in our capital right away, meaning that City 2 won't get to work the GH Riv Wine square until we get another source of Culture in City 2 OR b) We'll use the Missionary in City 2 and will have to wait 14 turns for City 2 to be able to work its Food Resource (10 turns for its Cultural Borders to expand over top of the Wheat and 5 turns to Farm the Wheat, with us working the Farmed Wheat at the end of the 14th turn). I don't mind wasting the Fur by settling on top of it, but that City has neither early Food (for Whipping) nor early Hammers, making it really challenging for us to build The Great Lighthouse quickly.

 

[leif erikson]

Finally checking in. Lots of reading to catch up on!

Sorry, been busy with Civ6 stuff...

 

[Jersey Joe]

Fixed the 2 squares Dhoom pointed out (flattened the one hill and added a forest to the other hill). Also added a hill in the fog behind the mountains located in a southwesterly direction from the scout.

Map to the west beyond what is currently known or perceived by fog gazing is all new. More land on this map 1,072 tiles, not as much as real game but getting closer.
England still attached to the main land.
Khmer and Maya have been replaced by Korea and the Netherlands.
Istanbul has 3 religions (Judaism, Islam and Christianity)
The Netherlands has a second city.

 

[pigswill]

Did a test run; settled on Green X, second city on southern fur, built/chopped/whipped Glight 1200bc. Has anyone done a test run on Purple X to establish build date for Glight?

I can easily imagine a scenario in which London is on the mainland and we're facing a barbarian infested wilderness at which point we might be considering Gwall instead.

 

[neilmeister]

I just did a test where we settled 1E and used the missionary. Assuming Churchill is on an island the cows come under our cultural influence the turn after we settle the north coast.

For mine its 1N or 1E, 1E combines more hills for our cap and slightly more flexible northern settling options. Green X feels like no-mans-land

The map has such clues.... Alps, Pyrenees, english channel, french south of english, english having Stonehenge, Mediterranean.... we have to trust the clues.... Churchill will be on an island.

 

[pigswill]

Maybe you're right and the map is based on Eurasia. I am quite paranoid when it comes to sgotm and I'm wondering where's the catch.

If England is on an island then IE and a northern city for cows, hills and Glite would be a good starting point.

 

[pigswill]

I've edited a test map for a more Eurasian feel. England is an island, Spain has been added, barbs may be more of an issue.

 

[Jersey Joe]

Did a test run; settled on Green X, second city on southern fur, built/chopped/whipped Glight 1200bc. Has anyone done a test run on Purple X to establish build date for Glight?

I can easily imagine a scenario in which London is on the mainland and we're facing a barbarian infested wilderness at which point we might be considering Gwall instead.

I settled purple X on map similar to the new test map, but with more AIs settled on the coast. With very little MM and some misclicks that cost workersturns, I finished GLH in 775 BC.
Pigswill, what was your tech path?
I teched AH->Hunting->Mining->BW->Writing->Alpha. Before building lighthouse.

I looked at whole map in 800 BC and only saw 1 AI building a lighthouse and none building the GLH mostly the AIs were building axemen and swordsmen.
In 1080bc the Great wall was built in a far away land.
I never had real problem with barbs. There is not much wilderness for the barbs to spawn in.

I am going to try the purple X spot on this test map later today (13 May) to see if I can do the GLH 10 turns quicker.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Fixed the 2 squares Dhoom pointed out (flattened the one hill and added a forest to the other hill). Also added a hill in the fog behind the mountains located in a southwesterly direction from the scout.

Thanks. The square that is 1 SE + 3 E of the G Cow a Hills square, as it being flat makes the coniferous trees on the square 1 SE + 2 E of the G Cow have an incorrect level of terrain between them. I made that change and added a couple of TEST GAME Barbarian signs, but otherwise left your updated map untouched; see the attached file. Great work, so far!


I tried out both possibilities for settling 1 N, playing as far as Alphabet. As for getting The Great Lighthouse, it's mostly a matter of how quickly we can Chop after we've learned Alphabet, so it depends upon how much we've focused on building Workers. In the "Churchill is on an island" approach, I went for a quick Alphabet, getting it on Turn 57, 1720 BC, with some Gold left over. In the "Churchill is on our landmass" approach, I went for Bronze Working first, which allowed for a lot of Chopping, but doing so delayed Alphabet, which I got on Turn 61, 1560 BC.

Churchill is on an island:

Spoiler :

Churchill is on our landmass:

Spoiler :

 

[pigswill]

We probably do need to make a decision at some point. There are some things we know and others we're only guessing.

We know Ch'ill is just to the north and has Stonehenge. We're guessing he's on an island or maybe not. We won't know for sure for 10 turns.

We know the basic tile yields and various combinations depending on settling spot. We don't know what's in the fog which could affect locations of cities 2, 3 and 4.

We don't know if we have any other nearby AI for trade and spawnbusting and won't know that for a few turns.

We can run scenarios for early Glight, early Gwall and early alphabet. We don't know which of these scenarios is relevant.

Which site has the best mix of hammers/commerce/food for the first 30-40 turns? Which site has the best long term potential?

My preference remains Green X, it has cow and deer regardless of whether Chill is on the mainland and has spare wheat for another city. It has fur for early commerce boost. It only has one hill for early production which is a problem when not building settlers or workers (slavery would help). It has a decent number of riverside grassland tiles for bureaucratic cottages.

My second preference is 1E. It has deer and wheat, 3 hills for early production and fur for commerce. It does risk losing cow if Chill is on the mainland. It also has a few riverside grassland tiles.

 

[neilmeister]

I agree we need to make a decision.
My vote will go: 1E, 1N, Green X.
Should we put it to a team vote? 3 votes for 1st preference, 2 for 2nd, 1 for 3rd ???


My testing focused on 1E, for comparison with Dhooms save I researched the same things and settled in about the same places.

In my 'on island' test, I get to Alpha at pretty much the same time (its 1t earlier, but I have 0g in the bank where Dhoom has 20g, so he probably could have got 1t earlier too).
What is different however is the choice of settling locations for the northern city. In settling 1N, we are forced to settle 2E or 2E1N of the cows. If we settle our cap 1E, we can also build the coast city 1E of the cows, giving us the ability to share the deer if required and also to work a riverside farm (we cant see any other food up there in the fog and a city with only a single grass cow might suck).

In the 'churchill on land' save, the cows are lost regardless of 1N or 1E, so why lose 2 hills ? I went a different path (less chopping, more cottages) than Dhoom, so it might not be an easy comparison. I did however settle my 2nd city in exactly the same location as Dhoom.

Settling 1E allows us to work a 2 GH mine with Wine, one riverside: that's a great tile early (better than the fur IMO)

Anyway, I post my saves for perusal.



Oh, and I just realised we are Charismatic... surely Stonehenge for +1 happiness in every city is an absolute must

 

[Cactus Pete]

Prefer 1E.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Thanks for doing the additional testing!

If it comes down to a choice between 1 E and 1 N, I favour 1 N, for a few reasons:
1. 1 Cow beats 2 Wines
Until we learn Monarchy, one Wine is equivalent to a GH Riv square and the one that is on a River is equivalent to any GH Riv square that has a +1 Commerce, unimproveable Resource on it (such as a Spice without a Forest, a Silk without a Forest, etc).

Each square contributes +2 Food/Hammers, while the Cow contributes +4 Food/Hammers, so we need 2 population points (and extra Food to grow them) in order to get the same output for building early Settlers and Workers as we can get from the Cow.

Without spreading Christianity into our capital, the Cow was 21% ours in the scenario where Churchill is on our landmass. Once our capital hits 500 Culture, we'll be putting equal Culture into the square plus whatever base Culture our City makes. So, we'll likely win the Cow back at about the time that we could build Wineries on the Wine squares.

Wineries give us squares that are 1 Commerce weaker than the Fur squares, with the Riverside Wine being equal to one of the Fur squares... yet, at the cost of not getting Hammers from Mines anymore (i.e. getting the same 1 Hammer as from a Fur). Basically, these squares do not excite me and if we were to simply use them for +1 Happiness and +1 tradeable Resource without actually working them by any City, doing so wouldn't be a big loss, much as it isn't a big deal to directly work an Incense square or a Silk square.

Meanwhile, the Cow gives our capital a third Food Resource, either in the short term or around the time that we're learning Monarchy, depending upon Churchill's placement (off of the continent or on the same continent). A 3-Food capital is quite strong and is very compelling, as you can do so much more with a Food-heavy capital, thanks to the power of Bureaucracy, Oxford, and improved Trade Routes for having a single large-sized City.

So, overall, the Cow beats the Wines for the capital.

If we really want to be able to work the Wines, we can place a City 2 E of the G Cow to work the weaker, northern Wine (i.e. the one that is really just a GH Riv Mine and later a slightly-weaker-than-Fur square) and a City 1 E or 2 E of the south-east Fur in a game where we build The Great Lighthouse (or, even on that south-eastern Fur to share the capital's Wheat if there are no Food Resources there like how we see the extra Cow down there in Jersey Joe's most recent test game); but, it's also do not believe it to be a big deal if we don't get to work those Wine squares at all.


2. We consume a Forest by moving 1 E

Yes, it's only 1 turn lost. Yes, it is only 1 Forest lost. But, it's in a nice location such that it can spread to 3 other nearby squares, giving us a chance for 2 Forests versus 0 Forests if we don't race to Chop it right away. Extra Forests can mean a faster Oxford University or another important Building in our capital without having to whip as many population points, such as an early Market.

We don't know what's in the fog which could affect locations of cities 2, 3 and 4.

3. We leave ourselves options for Cities 2 and 3

Just like how settling at the Green X pretty much forces our hand into settling by the Wheat with City 2, if Churchill is on an island, we're pretty much forced into settling by the Cow with City 2. But, if Churchilll is on an island and we settle by each of the Deer, Wheat, and Cow with our capital, then City 2 could go elsewhere in our homeland that is:

Your homeland is beautiful and rich.

We have seen beautiful (Food, Grasslands, and Wines), but we haven't seen "rich" yet, so is anyone else thinking Gems Resources or Gold Resources might be nearby, such that we'd want to place City 2 and City 3 at those locations? Wouldn't we regret not settling by all of the Deer, Wheat, and Cow if we settle Cities 2 and 3 elsewhere?

If Churchill is on our landmass, it will be a long time before we'd settle any other City to grab the Cow, such that we'd never Culturally get the Cow by settling 1 E until after London falls (that's literally the difference of settling one Culture ring closer for the free extra 20 Culture per turn). But, by settling 1 N, we'll get the Cow sometime after our capital hits 500 Culture even without a war versus Churchill (although we'd probably want to fight him, there might be a juicier target to hit first, such as going after the City with The Pyramids in it, since we'd be less excited about capturing England early if Churchill is on our landmass).


So, for me, my choices are:
1. 1 N
2. 1 SE of the Fish (but only if we are confident that the map is so real-life-like that we are believe Churchill to be most certainly on an island; if there is any doubt, skip this option--currently, I have a bit of doubt and would have to be convinced otherwise)
3. 1 E, as it is all right, just not as strong as 1 N for the above-listed reasons

 

[neilmeister]

Wineries are a weak tile, but a GH mine on a riverside wine gives 1f3h2c, which is what I was referring to.

...but, I can't help thinking:
-if Churchill is on an island, then the cows will likely go to City2, not the capital.
-if Churchill is on mainland... the cows are lost until we conquer him or get 500 culture.... that's a long way off with only 1 hill.


edit: anyway... lets get going.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I tried playing around with 1 E and one annoying part is that there are a few less Forests overall to Chop, meaning that I'm clear-cutting instead of leaving some trees around for future regrowth.

I think that we'll be hiring 2 Scientists in the capital and/or working G Riv Cottages, so the first few "power" squares are what are important for getting our empire started.


EDIT: Try out a game where we settle 1 N and go Hunting -> Mining -> Bronze Working and Chop some Forests before Churchill's Culture steals them.

 

[pigswill]

I tried settling one north with Chill on the mainland and losing cows for ?70-100 turns is not good. Settling 2N loses a turn, doesn't lose any forest and keeps cows regardless of Chill. We can grab wheat tile T33-43 depending on location of city#2 and how we use the missionary.

I agree that an obvious thing to do once we've got a couple of cities settled is to turn capital into research central (riverside cottages, library w 2 scientists and probably use first GS for academy).

I'd define a 'power' square as any tile producing 5+ bits (food, hammer or commerce). Visible power squares are cow (4f,2h), deer (5f,1h), wheat (5f,1c), 2 fur (2f,1h,4c), riverside wine hill (1f,3h,2c). We can't fit all of them into one city but we can fit all of them into 2 cities.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Sorry I haven't been about much, will catch up with the discussion tomorrow probably. Why don't we take the rest of the weekend for testing and aim to decide on settling location on Monday?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

When it comes to running test games, I like to compare apples to apples, as much as possible, to make for easier comparisons.

Techs
Hunting first seems to be a no-brainer no matter what we do. We get a base 0% bonus Flasks when researching that tech (for most other techs that aren't in the first column or techs and aren't Astronomy, we get a base 20% bonus to Flasks, plus an additional small percentage for each AI whom we have met who already has learned the tech that we are researching), and we'd need to meet 6 AIs who started with Hunting (AIs get Archery for free, but not Hunting, so that would mean probably meeting every AI) just to get 1 bonus Flask per turn from knowing other AIs who know that tech (i.e. for getting "piggyback" research from having met sufficient AIs who know a tech). That possibility is not practical, so there's no reason to "wait to meet the AIs" before learning Hunting. In fact, meeting too many AIs early on will likely hurt us far more than help us, thanks to WFYABTA counters.

For the most part, for other techs, we won't get bonus Flasks for knowing other AIs until we're making plenty of Flasks per turn, so we should probably still focus on which techs make the most sense for a given opening. It is actually possible to even lose a Flask on the last turn of completing a tech when at least 1 AI whom you have met knows that tech, due to the game removing the small fractional piggybacking bonus from any overflow Flasks that we might have earned.

For ease of comparison's sake of our Commerce earned, I'll avoid meeting other AIs (to avoid any chance of piggybacking Flasks altering the results) and will tech Hunting -> Mining -> Bronze Working -> Pottery. There's a minor chance that Churchill will research a tech before us, but more likely, he'll trail our research on Mining -> Bronze Working and thus his research shouldn't affect our results.

After Mining, we might instead go straight for Writing -> Alphabet or else we might go Bronze Working -> Pottery -> Writing -> Alphabet. Later testing can determine the best tech path for our given chosen opening; for now, we just want to figure out where to settle, so I just need a way to compare the openings to each other so that we can get this game moving forward.

For the case where we'd benefit from early Animal Husbandry, I'll stick to the same above tech path for comparison's sake. For 2 N (Green X), we'd actually go Hunting -> Animal Husbandry. For 1 N, we'd actually go: Hunting -> partial Mining -> possibly Animal Husbandry once we see where Churchill's Cultural Borders go. For the cases where I need to Pasture a Cow, I will simply World Build Animal Husbandry into our Civ's list of known techs, so that each game will use the same tech path, to give us the most straight-forward of comparison for Flasks earned. Remember that we should meet any AIs to avoid the chance of piggyback Research from techs that they know affecting the final totals.


Build Order
Should we go for Worker first? Almost certainly, unless we can settle 2 Cities on the same River as each other, in which case Settler first could actually be an interesting opening choice, getting us our Trade Routes without needing Roads. We'd then have 2 Cities which could each build their own Workers.

For example, let's say that we settled 1 SE. We could have our Settler on Turn 21.

Our second City could then get settled at:
Green X if Churchill is on our continent, to fight for control of the Cow by settling adjacent to it early enough
Red X if Churchill is overseas, as then we get the second Fur, the Cow, and coastal status, plus 4 Forests for The Great Lighthouse, and we'd make the City a whipping City by working G Riv Farms.

Other than for the Settler gambit, Worker first should be seen as a no-brainer.

When should we start on Settler 2? I'm going to suggest that we do so at Size 3 or Size 4. Size 2 seems to be a bit premature given that we will have 2 Food Resources to help us grow, but if someone can show that starting on a Settler at Size 2 (with an opening where we build Worker first) is the way to go, then all of the power to you! I will focus on Size-3 Settler testing first, as we need somewhere to start and this approach seems to work reasonably well.

Don't forget that City 2 working a G For square contributes 2 Food, 2 Hammers, and 1 Commerce per turn at a cost of 2 Gold in Maintenance per turn (or 1 Gold in Maintenance per turn if settled 3 plot squares away--the first diagonal counts as 1 while the second diagonal counts as 2), so simply settling City 2 is a strong move. Add 2 Commerce to that total as soon as a Trade Route is set up between the two Cities, and add additional Food, Hammers, or Commerce if we can work a square better than a G For square from the initial founding of City 2.


Comparison Turns
We need some way to compare. I'd rather not involve the settling of City 2 into the comparison for any Worker-first approach (although we should include the settling of City 2 for a Settler-first approach), even though City 2 will contribute overall to the empire, as we don't yet know where we'd settle. If we see Flood Plains Corn + 2 Gold Resources, it's going to be very hard to pass up on that location, so anywhere that I settle now might not reflect what we'd do when we find the "Rich" area of the map, so I won't settle City 2 (except for the Settler-first approach) and thus you'll just have to mentally calculate the value of getting our Settler 2 earlier.

Since Turn 32, 2840 BC is when we get our Settler 2 in some cases, let's use that turn as the main comparison turn. I'll also try to use Turn 23, 3080 BC as a secondary comparison turn, to help with deciding between micro choices (do we Camp the Deer first or do we Farm the Wheat first being a decision that we can hopefully decide upon with help from the Turn 23 statistics).


Forests
Forests can contribute to getting our empire started (Chopping into an early Worker 2 or Settler 3, Chopping into a Granary, possibly Chopping into a Library, and having Forests to Chop into Oxford University are all important considerations).

We won't be playing out the test games far enough to really see the benefits, so we will just have to compare the options available and keep this Forest factor in mind.

Not counting the Deer and Fur squares, we have these Forests:
1 E Forests
Churchill on our continent: 2 big fat cross, 3 next Cultural ring
Churchill on an island: 2 big fat cross, 5 next Cultural ring

1 N Forests
Churchill on our continent: 3 big fat cross, 4 next Cultural ring
Churchill on an island: 4 big fat cross, 4 next Cultural ring

2 N (Green X) Forests
It doesn't matter where Churchill is: 4 big fat cross, 1 next Cultural ring


We wouldn't likely Chop Forests in the next Cultural ring until they are both within our Cultural Borders and we have learned Mathematics, bringing them up from 10 Hammers to 24 Hammers each.

Camped Resources cannot spread Forests to nearby squares, so once a Forest has been Camped, it will no longer be able to spread to nearby squares.

It could be nice to Chop 1 Forest into Worker 2/Settler 3 and 1 Forest into our capital's Granary (making it one-pop-whippable), but doing so clear-cuts the big fat cross Forests if settling 1 E.


Testing Runs
A] 1 E: Farm Wheat -> Camp Deer -> Camp Fur
Turn 13, 3600 BC Worker 1
Turn 19, 3240 BC Size 2
Turn 19, 3240 BC Micro trick: Build Settler 2 for 1 turn
Turn 20, 3200 BC: Go back to building Warrior 2
Turn 23, 3080 BC Size 3
Turn 23, 3080 BC STATS:
Size 3 with 1 / 26 Food
Warrior 2 exists
1 overflow Hammer
109 /179 Flasks in Bronze Working
Turn 31, 2880 BC Settler 2
Turn 32, 2720 STATS:
Size 3 with 1 / 26 Food
Warrior 2 exists
Settler 2 exists
18 Hammers in a Worker (complete in 4 turns)
72 / 119 Flasks in Pottery (complete in 3 turns)


B] 1 E: Farm Wheat -> Camp Deer -> Mine Wine
Turn 13, 3480 BC Worker 1
Turn 19, 3240 BC Size 2
Turn 19, 3240 BC Micro trick: Build Settler for 1 turn
Turn 20, 3200 BC: Go back to building Warrior 2
Turn 23, 3080 BC Size 3
Turn 23, 3080 BC STATS:
Size 3 with 1 / 26 Food
Warrior 2 exists,
1 overflow Hammer
109 /179 Flasks in Bronze Working
Turn 31, 2760 BC Settler 2
Turn 32, 2720 STATS:
Size 3 with 1 / 26 Food
Warrior 2 exists
Settler 2 exists
23 Hammers in a Worker (complete in 3 turns)
60 / 119 Flasks in Pottery (complete in 4 turns)


C] 1 E: Camp Deer -> Farm Wheat -> Camp Fur
Turn 13, 3480 BC Worker 1
Turn 19, 3240 BC Size 2
Turn 21, 3160 BC Warrior 2, then dump Hammers into a Barracks for 2 turns
Turn 23, 3080 BC Size 3
Turn 23, 3080 BC STATS:
Size 3 with 0 / 26 Food
Warrior 2 exists
5 Hammers in a Barracks
107 /179 Flasks in Bronze Working
Turn 32, 2720 BC Settler 2
Turn 32, 2720 STATS:
Size 3 with 0 / 26 Food
Warrior 2 exists
5 Hammers in a Barracks
Settler 2 exists
8 overflow Hammers into a Worker (complete in 5 turns)
69 / 119 Flasks in Pottery (complete in 3 turns)


D] 1 E: Camp Deer -> Farm Wheat -> Mine Wine
Turn 13, 3480 BC Worker 1
Turn 19, 3240 BC Size 2
Turn 21, 3160 BC Warrior 2, then dump Hammers into a Barracks for 2 turns
Turn 23, 3080 BC Size 3
Turn 23, 3080 BC STATS:
Size 3 with 0 /26 Food
Warrior 2 exists
5 Hammers in a Barracks
107 /179 Flasks in Bronze Working
Turn 32, 2720 BC Settler 2
Turn 32, 2720 STATS:
Size 3 with 0 / 26 Food
Warrior 2 exists
5 Hammers in a Barracks
Settler 2 exists
11 overflow Hammers into a Worker (complete in 4 turns)
57 / 119 Flasks in Pottery (complete in 5 turns)


E] 1 N: Camp Deer -> Farm Wheat -> Camp Fur
Turn 12, 3520 BC Worker 1
Turn 18, 3280 BC Size 2
Turn 20, 3200 BC Warrior 2, then dump Hammers into a Barracks for 2 turns
Turn 22, 3120 BC Size 3
Turn 23, 3080 BC STATS:
Size 3 with 0 / 26 Food
12 Hammers in Settler 2
Warrior 2 exists
5 Hammers in Barracks
121 / 179 Flasks in Bronze Working
Turn 31, 2760 BC Settler 2
Turn 32, 2720 BC STATS:
Size 3 with 0 / 26 Food
Warrior 2 exists
5 Hammers in Barracks
Settler 2 exists
20 Hammers in Worker 2 (complete in 4 turns)
87 / 119 Flasks in Pottery (complete in 2 turns)


F] 1 N: Camp Deer -> Farm Wheat -> Pasture Cow
Turn 12, 3520 BC Worker 1
Turn 18, 3280 BC Size 2
Turn 20, 3200 BC Warrior 2, then dump Hammers into a Barracks for 2 turns
Turn 22, 3120 BC Size 3
Turn 23, 3080 BC STATS:
Size 3 with 0 / 26 Food
12 Hammers in Settler 2
Warrior 2 exists
5 Hammers in Barracks
121 / 179 Flasks in Bronze Working (although we'd actually have put Flasks into Animal Husbandry first)
Turn 30, 2800 BC Settler 2
Turn 32, 2720 STATS:
Size 3 with 0 / 26 Food
Warrior 2 exists
5 Hammers in a Barracks
Settler 2 exists
32 Hammers in a Worker: (complete in 2 turns)
64 / 119 Flasks in Pottery (complete in 5 turns)


G] 1 N: Farm Wheat -> Camp Deer -> Camp Fur
Turn 12, 3520 BC Worker 1
Turn 19, 3240 BC Size 2
Turn 21, 3160 BC Warrior 2, then dump Hammers into a Barracks for 1 turn
Turn 22, 3120 BC Size 3
Turn 23, 3080 BC STATS:
Size 3 with 2 / 26 Food
12 Hammers in Settler 2
Warrior 2 exists
3 Hammers in Barracks
122 / 179 Flasks in Bronze Working (although we'd actually have put Flasks into Animal Husbandry first)
Turn 31, 2760 BC Settler 2
Turn 32, 2720 STATS:
Size 3 with 2 / 26 Food
Warrior 2 exists
3 Hammers in a Barracks
Settler 2 exists
20 Hammers in a Worker (complete in 4 turns)
84 / 119 Flasks in Pottery (complete in 2 turns)


H] 1 N: Farm Wheat -> Camp Deer -> Pasture Cow
Turn 12, 3520 BC Worker 1
Turn 19, 3240 BC Size 2
Turn 21, 3160 BC Warrior 2, then dump Hammers into a Barracks for 1 turn
Turn 22, 3120 BC Size 3
Turn 23, 3080 BC STATS:
Size 3 with 2 / 26 Food
12 Hammers in Settler 2
Warrior 2 exists
3 Hammers in Barracks
122 / 179 Flasks in Bronze Working (although we'd actually have put Flasks into Animal Husbandry first)
Turn 30, 2800 BC Settler 2
Turn 32, 2720 STATS:
Size 3 with 2 / 26 Food
Warrior 2 exists
3 Hammers in a Barracks
Settler 2 exists
35 Hammers in a Worker (complete in 2 turns)
64 / 119 Flasks in Pottery (complete in 5 turns)


I] 2 N (Green X): Camp Deer -> Pasture Cow -> Camp Fur
Turn 13, 3480 BC Worker 1
Turn 21, 3160 BC Warrior 2, then dump Hammers into a Barracks for 2 turns
Turn 23, 3080 BC Size 3
Turn 23, 3080 BC STATS:
Size 3 with 1 / 26 Food
0 Hammers in Settler 2
Warrior 2 exists
7 Hammers in Barracks
103 / 179 Flasks in Bronze Working (although we'd actually have put Flasks into Animal Husbandry first)
Turn 32, 2720 Settler 2
Turn 32, 2720 STATS:
Size 3 with 1 / 26 Food
Warrior 2 exists
7 Hammers in Barracks
Settler 2 exists
8 overflow Hammers for a Worker (complete in 5 turns)
52 / 119 Flasks in Pottery (complete in 5 turns)


J] 1 SE Settler First, City 2 at 2 N (Green X)
Turn 21, 3160 BC Settler 2
Turn 22, 3120 BC Settle at 2 N (Green X)
Turn 23, 3080 BC STATS:
Size 1 with 0 / 22 Food; Size 1 with 0 / 22 Food
9 Hammers in Worker 1; 5 Hammers in Worker 2
114 / 179 Flasks in Bronze Working (although we'd actually have put Flasks into Animal Husbandry first)
Turn 32, 2720 STATS:
Size 1 with 0 / 22 Food; Size 1 with 0 / 22 Food
45 Hammers in Worker 1 (complete in 4 turns); 50 Hammers in Worker 2 (complete in 2 turns)
76 / 119 Flasks in Pottery (complete in 4 turns)


K] 2 N (Green X): Camp Deer -> Pasture Cow -> Camp Fur; Build Settler at Size 2
Turn 23, 3080 BC STATS:
Size 2 with 0 / 24 Food
35 Hammers in Settler 2
12 Hammers in Warrior 2
106 / 179 Flasks in Bronze Working (although we'd actually have put Flasks into Animal Husbandry first)
Turn 29, 2840 BC Settler 2 (not settled); complete Warrior 2 and then grow while building Barracks afterward
Turn 32, 2720 STATS:
Size 2 with 21 / 24 Food
Warrior 2 exists
10 Hammers in Barracks
Settler 2 exists
0 Hammers for a Worker (complete in 6 turns if we first grow to Size 3 before building it)
34 / 119 Flasks in Pottery (complete in 6 turns, counting the Commerce from working the Fur at Size 3)

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Here's a summary of the above data. Kindly me know if you spot any mistakes.

Note that this message summarizes the date on which a given scenario created its Settler 2 and then lists the values as of T 32, 2720 BC.

A] 1 E: Farm Wheat -> Camp Deer -> Camp Fur
Turn 31, 2760 BC Settler 2
1 Food
60 + 15 + 100 + 18 = 193 Hammers
72 Flasks in Pottery (complete in 3 turns)
Worker 2 in 4 turns

B] 1 E: Farm Wheat -> Camp Deer -> Mine Wine
Turn 31, 2760 BC Settler 2
1 Food
60 + 15 + 100 + 23 = 198 Hammers
60 Flasks in Pottery (complete in 4 turns)
Worker 2 in 3 turns

C] 1 E: Camp Deer -> Farm Wheat -> Camp Fur
Turn 32, 2720 BC Settler 2
0 Food
60 + 15 + 5 + 100 + 8 = 188 Hammers
69 Flasks in Pottery (complete in 3 turns)
Worker 2 in 5 turns

D] 1 E: Camp Deer -> Farm Wheat -> Mine Wine
Turn 32, 2720 BC Settler 2
0 Food
60 + 15 + 5 + 100 + 11 = 191 Hammers
57 Flasks in Pottery (complete in 5 turns)
Worker 2 in 4 turns

E] 1 N: Camp Deer -> Farm Wheat -> Camp Fur
Turn 31, 2760 BC Settler 2
0 Food
60 + 15 + 5 + 100 + 20 = 200 Hammers
87 Flasks in Pottery (complete in 2 turns)
Worker 2 in 4 turns

F] 1 N: Camp Deer -> Farm Wheat -> Pasture Cow
Turn 30, 2800 BC Settler 2
0 Food
60 + 15 + 5 + 100 + 32 = 212 Hammers
64 Flasks in Pottery (complete in 5 turns)
Worker 2 in 2 turns

G] 1 N: Farm Wheat -> Camp Deer -> Camp Fur
Turn 31, 2760 BC Settler 2
2 Food
60 + 15 + 3 + 100 + 20 = 198 Hammers
84 Flasks in Pottery (complete in 2 turns)
Worker 2 in 4 turns

H] 1 N: Farm Wheat -> Camp Deer -> Pasture Cow
Turn 30, 2800 BC Settler 2
2 Food
60 + 15 + 3 + 100 + 35 = 213 Hammers
64 Flasks in Pottery (complete in 5 turns)
Worker 2 in 2 turns

I] 2 N (Green X): Camp Deer -> Pasture Cow -> Camp Fur
Turn 32, 2720 BC Settler 2
1 Food
60 + 15 + 7 + 100 + 8 = 190 Hammers
52 Flasks in Pottery (complete in 5 turns)
Worker 2 in 5 turns

J] 1 SE Settler First, City 2 at 2 N (Green X)
Turn 21, 3160 BC Settler 2
0 Food (2 population, as opposed to 3 population in the above test runs)
100 + 45 + 50 = 195 Hammers
76 Flasks in Pottery (complete in 4 turns)
Workers 1 and 2 in 4 turns and 2 turns (or 3 turns and 3 turns)

K] 2 N (Green X): Camp Deer -> Pasture Cow -> Camp Fur; Build Settler at Size 2
Turn 29, 2840 BC Settler 2
-3 Food away from Size 3
60 + 100 + 15 + 10 = 185 Hammers
34 Flasks in Pottery (complete in 6 turns)
Worker 2 in 6 turns