SGOTM 23 - Xteam

[Noble Zarkon]

I'm happy to settle and do the scouting moves but then I will pass, these turns are heavy with micro management which is not my strong point. Who wants to play the next set?

 

[pigswill]

There's virtually no micromanagement in the real game until we have a worker so the first twelve turns are about scouting but if you want to pass that's fine by me.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

OK moves made.

We are at x=6, y=21.

Most interesting discovery is another magic fish that the scout found to our SE.

Spoiler South Coast :

Spoiler North Coast :

Turn here

 

[Noble Zarkon]

There's virtually no micromanagement in the real game until we have a worker so the first twelve turns are about scouting but if you want to pass that's fine by me.

Actually that's true - if folks are happy I'll do these turns up to the worker.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Actually that's true - if folks are happy I'll do these turns up to the worker.

I'm fine with you continuing.

Are you going to propose unit movements or just wait for suggestions?

How much Culture does Churchill have on the F8 VICTORIES screen? It looks as though he followed the test game and didn't convert to Judaism yet.

It'll probably also be interesting to see the F9 DEMOGRAPHICS and F9 TOP CITIES / WONDERS screen screenshotted for, say, the first 5 turns, to see if we can determine anything from what we see.


I guess that for exploration, we should decide what we want to do with our units...
1. Warrior, I assume that people want to hunt for an AI from whom we might try to steal a Worker

The Warrior could probably do:
T2 1 NE G For (to see all water squares that could be used by a City settled by the G Cow)
T3 1 SE Whatever that square is (3 E of the G Cow) to explore a bit away from the coast for a while

The squares to the SE and E of the GH that is 1 E of the Warrior right now look like a GH For square and a GH square, respectively, meaning that we wouldn't see 2 squares away by moving 1 E to the GH square on Turn 2, and thus climbing onto the GH on Turn 2 looks less appealing than moving 1 NE to the G For.


2. For the Scout, perhaps its best use will be to spawn-bust the area to the south... it won't be fun for a Lion or a Bear to appear who eats our next-built Warrior, making it tough for us to settle down there... we're not necessarily settling down there next, but it doesn't hurt to keep our options open.

If we want to use the Scout for spawn-busting, his best position that I can see is going to be on the GH For that is 3 S of the G Riv Wheat, which will spawn-bust the area to the south that our Culture will miss, giving us the GH For that is 1E of the G Non-Riv Fur For (Culture-busted by Paris' expanding Cultural Borders) all the way to 2 squares west of where we place the Scout.

To do so, we'd need our Scout to arrive on the target GH For square at the end of our Turn 5, 3800 BC, to prevent Barbs from spawning at the end of that turn in the nearby area.

That approach would give us:
T1 1 NE G For (1 N of the Fish)
T2 1 E GH For (1 NE of the Fish)
T3 1 W GH For (1 N of the Fish)
T4 1 SW G > 1 S G (1 SW of the Fish)
T5 1 W G > 1 W GH For (3S of the G Riv Wheat)

That way, we'll also see all of the area around that newly-revealed Fish, so that we can plan where we'd put a City to best use it.


3. For the Missionary, it depends upon how much land there is, but with the Scout spawn-busting, it's theoretically possible that we could have the Missionary spawn-busting without fear.

I'd suggest that we send the Missionary:
T1 1 W G For (1SW of the Fish)
T2 1 SW G (if it really is flat land, otherwise Pause to discuss) > Pause to discuss

 

[Noble Zarkon]

I was heading out so wanted to get the turn done, I'll take some screenshots etc this afternoon.

I'm happy to have proposals for scouting - I'll have a proper read of your comments once I'm home this afternoon.

 

[pigswill]

South west of the scout it looks like 3 coastal tiles with a mountain IS3W, there's a hint of land 2S of current scout location (?forest?jungle). To the south east there's obviously more land (with a river delta).

Looks like there's at least two more forest tiles in the fog W of missionary.

English borders have popped already, suggesting that the nearest city is indeed London (palace+SH+monument = 11 culture (I think)).

I would move the scout NE to check if the land to the SE is indeed Nova Roma or a seperate island. Missionary 1W to keep checking coastline.

Spawn-busting is possibly premature, it depends on how early we build a settler and if we have time to complete a warrior (or scout) beforehand.

 

[Jersey Joe]

NZ, Thanks for posting the coordinates.

I would suggest:
Next turn the warrior move 1E G Hill (for the view); then turn-3 1NE into the forest.
Missionary this turn 1W g forest; Turn 2 (after warrior and scout move) 1SW(if flat) and pause
Scout this turn 1NE GH For; T2 1E GH For; T3 1 NE For?

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Here are the requested screenshots, Churchill has 12 culture and hasn't adopted a religion.

Spoiler Victory conditions :

Spoiler Top 5 cities :

Spoiler Demographics :

At the moment we are still on micro turns so here's the PPP:-

t1 Missionary 1W G Forest
t1 Scout 1NE G Hill

Advance turn, take screenshots, stop and upload.

There is some debate about the warrior -

Spoiler Dhoom's Fog Gazing :

The squares to the SE and E of the GH that is 1 E of the Warrior right now look like a GH For square and a GH square, respectively, meaning that we wouldn't see 2 squares away by moving 1 E to the GH square on Turn 2, and thus climbing onto the GH on Turn 2 looks less appealing than moving 1 NE to the G For.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Preliminary testing shows that growing to Size 3 is stronger than growing to Size 2 before starting on Settler 2, meaning that we'll be able to complete Warrior 2.

My current thinking is that it would be nice for us to send Warrior 2 out to see if it can steal a Worker, rather than having to fight through Barb Animals and have to be forced to heal, if it even survives such a fight.


Plus, if our Scout leaves the area entirely and our Barb Warrior does manage to defeat an attacking Barb Animal, we'd have this fun little problem, where that Barb Animal would get replaced by a Barb Warrior or Barb Archer if we didn't park the Warrior to spawn-bust at that point:

monarch
barbarians in 25 turns•••

So, my current thinking is that the Scout's best job will be to explore around the south-east Fish and then get into position to park its butt in a good spawn-busting position, freeing us to spam early Workers and Settlers and freeing up Warriors that we build to be able to go out Worker-hunting.


Theoretically, the Missionary can be a spawn-buster, but it depends upon how much open land there is... we can't leave room for a Wolf to spawn, which could spell doom for the Missionary. Basically, there's a chance that we can get free spawn-busting with the Missionary, but probably only if we also commit either the Scout or the Warrior to keeping another area free of Barb units via its own spawn-busting. We've talked about wanting to try Worker stealing multiple times, and a Scout can't steal Workers, hence why I'd suggest using the Scout for spawn-busting duty.


2 SGOTMs ago, we had major issues with an early Barb Archer spawning nearby that forced us to do a lot of dancing around with our units. The experience was stressful and not very pleasant.


The other motivating factor for not sending the Scout out yet is that you only really need to meet about 3 AIs prior to doing Alphabet trading in order to get many of the cheap techs, and we've already met 1 AI. Once we've made those trades and also once more of the world has been settled by AIs (and we also have Open Borders), sending out Scouts to meet all of the AIs can be done in relative safety (i.e. not fearing the Barbs as much) and with less hits to our WFYABTA tech counters. Plus, by then, our Scout could use AIs' Roads to get around faster... but, it can't if we send it out early and it dies in the wilderness.


I don't have game access right now, but in the test game, but earlier I tried moving the Warrior 1 E and then 1 NE and doing so reveals less water than moving the Warrior 1 NE and then in-land (either 1 E or 1 SE). In other words, by moving 1 E, we have to follow the water for 2 turns afterward to fully scout the G Cow's possible big fat cross squares, which is counter-productive for Worker-stealing, as Workers are not going to be found at sea.


The nice part about pausing and saving is that if you make a mis-click while paused, the mis-click won't occur until you unpause, meaning that you can exit to the game's main menu without the mis-clicked move actually occurring.

One important note, though: don't add signs to the map (Alt + s) when the game is paused: doing so and then saving will corrupt the saved game.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Concur with warrior NE and missionary W, but not sure about moving scout NE. Let's at least consider moving him SW, then 2NW the next turn, and on further west where he can take advantage of his 2-tile movement. Certainly we need to explore around the southern fish, but a warrior (either our extant one or one to be built soon) would be well suited for that task and it isn't pressing.

The missionary would be well suited for the in place southern fog busting Dhoom makes a case for.

 

[pigswill]

The map does appear to have some limited resemblance to western Europe. If that's the case then we'll have a Neo-Iberian peninsula to the south west. Worth checking if that's true so maybe I'll change my mind and suggest sending scout SW to start with.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

The missionary would be well suited for the in place southern fog busting Dhoom makes a case for.

How do we get him there by Turn 5? Do we go 1 W with the Missionary now and then beeline that southern GH For spawn-busting location with the Missionary? Who will explore to the east of the south-east Fish?

EDIT: Note that we might be able to equally spawn-bust the south from the square that is 1 S of the G Riv Wheat, depending upon whether that square 1 SW + 3 S of the G Riv Wheat is a Peak or not. If it's a Peak, then Barbs cannot spawn on that square, so being 1 S of the G Riv Wheat on Turn 5 would give us equal spawn-busting coverage of the southern area. I can't tell about that square... can we confirm via a test game to see if putting a Peak there gives us the same graphics in the fog?

Ultimately, it would be nice to know where we're going to settle City 2 before we've advanced the real game to the point where we've built Warrior 2 an explored to the east of the south-east Fish, so that we can do testing runs in between that time with City 2's location fixed. The Missionary can't safely explore the area to the east of the south-east Fish.

Are we going to have Warrior 1 come down to that area instead of hunting for Workers to steal?

Try to put together a plan for all of the Scout and Missionary movements up until the end of Turn 5. It's a bit hard, as we don't see everything, but work it out and see if there's a solution.

My take is that we use the Scout to explore to the east of the Fish, head back to the spawn-busting position, then possibly consider getting the Missionary to that spot, but possibly not, depending upon how much land needs to be spawn-busted to the west of Paris.


The goals that I see us needing to achieve are:
1. Have our Warrior try to find a Worker-stealing target
2. Explore around all of the nearby Food Resources (north-east G Cow, south-east Fish) to see where best to settle City 2, so that we can start doing some test game runs ahead of the real game's progress
3. Get spawn-busters into position for the end of Turn 5

If we have an alternate plan that works for doing these things, I'll be happy to see it laid out.

 

[Jersey Joe]

I am okay with the warrior moving 1NE on turn 2, but, on turn 3, 1E F? may reveal more than 1SE G.

I am all for worker stealing, but what is the chance that BSP gave one of the nearby AIs a worker for us to steal? Excluding England (since we might need to know swimming to steal a worker early) is it not more likely that he gave the nearby civs the extra 3 cities needed to get the resolution vote count correct?

 

[pigswill]

Assuming that there are nearby civs not blocked by mountains or water.

Its going to be difficult to plan scouting moves blind (sometimes scout/miss can move 2, sometimes 1) so I'd suggest playing turn by turn (i.e play a turn, post screenshot) rather than making a 3-4 turn plan.

Square 1SW,3S of wheat (i.e. 1S of visible SW peak) is another mountain.

 

[Jersey Joe]

... depending upon whether that square 1 SW + 3 S of the G Riv Wheat is a Peak or not. If it's a Peak, then Barbs cannot spawn on that square, so being 1 S of the G Riv Wheat on Turn 5 would give us equal spawn-busting coverage of the southern area. I can't tell about that square... can we confirm via a test game to see if putting a Peak there gives us the same graphics in the fog?

Fog Gazing in the real game it looks like a peak.the area appears to be as in the test game.
Forest, Grass, Wheat
Grass, Forest, Grass,
Peak., Hill....., Grass
Hill..., Peak..., Hill
???.., Peak....,Ocean

I agree with pigswell, "The map does appear to have some limited resemblance to western Europe. If that's the case then we'll have a Neo-Iberian peninsula to the south west."

If the resemblance to Europe holds true, France should not have many tiles to the east before we find the Atlantic. The padre should be able to fog bust in a southerly direction and end up close to the spot Dhoom suggested for spawn busting.

The scout can search to the east (without knowing what he will see who knows how far).

If the scout does return to the spawn busting spot at about the same time as the missionary one of them could explore the Iberian peninsula in search of Lipizzans and either the Spanish or the Portuguese. (I am guessing there will be Clydesdales in Scotland.)

 

[Cactus Pete]

How do we get him there by Turn 5? Do we go 1 W with the Missionary now and then beeline that southern GH For spawn-busting location with the Missionary? Something like that. Who will explore to the east of the south-east Fish? Probably a to-be-built warrior, depending on where we end up moving our existing warrior.

The Missionary can't safely explore the area to the east of the south-east Fish. Agreed.

Are we going to have Warrior 1 come down to that area instead of hunting for Workers to steal? That might be on the way to worker hunting for our second warrior.

My take is that we use the Scout to explore to the east of the Fish, head back to the spawn-busting position, then possibly consider getting the Missionary to that spot, but possibly not, depending upon how much land needs to be spawn-busted to the west of Paris. Prefer sending the scout west.


The goals that I see us needing to achieve are:
1. Have our Warrior try to find a Worker-stealing target
2. Explore around all of the nearby Food Resources (north-east G Cow, south-east Fish) to see where best to settle City 2, so that we can start doing some test game runs ahead of the real game's progress
3. Get spawn-busters into position for the end of Turn 5

If we have an alternate plan that works for doing these things, I'll be happy to see it laid out.

A southern fish site is likely to be good whether or not we find other resources there, but we won't know our second city site, regardless of scouting paths, until we know where strategic resources are (or are not).

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Does someone have time to update the test game in terms of the terrain to the east (to the right) of the Scout, and then take a couple of screenshots of what we'd see by moving the Scout 1 NE GH For and then again 1 E GH For?

It would certainly help to know where we're going to put a City a bit in advance, so that if we're going to settle on a Forest, for example, we might plan to Chop it first, or we might plan to build a Road down to there in advance of completing Warrior 2, as another example.


A Strategic Resource would need to still have Food in its big fat cross to be worth settling by, so exploring all around of our Food Resources gives us the best possible settling info if we do reveal a Strategic Resource. Lacking a Strategic Resource, we still need to settle Cities, so again we'd want to have explored around our Food Resources before deciding where to settle.

 

[Jersey Joe]

Does someone have time to update the test game in terms of the terrain to the east (to the right) of the Scout, and then take a couple of screenshots of what we'd see by moving the Scout 1 NE GH For and then again 1 E GH For?

Best I can do right now is Scout 1 NE GH For. and anything under the fog east of the Scout is what I put there. My fog gazing does lead me to believe that 1E, 1NE of the Scout is a GH For. Other than that, anything revealed by the scout moving 1 E GH For, would be what I put there.

Scout 1 NE:

 

[pigswill]

There certainly looks to be a reasonable coastal city to the SE. We need to explore a bit more before deciding if that's the best spot for city#2.

Spawn busting is nice but so is exploration. I'd reckon that most of the time its better to explore with a scout. Worker stealing needs a nearby worker to be stolen: first find your victim.