SGOTM 23 - Xteam

[Folket]

The test game seems to lack horses.

 

[Jersey Joe]

The test game seems to lack horses.

Yes, horse thieves stole them, but were caught trying to cross the Alps. Horses reappear in the next test game after I describe the 3 turns I just played.

 

[Jersey Joe]

Followed the ppp.

2760BC: Joao and Churchill agree to Open Borders. Our Missionary, not being allowed to try and convert us, starts a trip south.
2720BC: We learn how to build Fishing boats and out brilliant scholars realize that they have learned how to write, but they do not know the Alphabet so they must invent it. How every their research funding was reduced to zero until they could explain to investors how you could write without knowing the Alphabet.
2680BC: A new city on the coast is founded. It took a while to decide on a name the Doctors wanted to call it something like Gallifreynch, Gallifreych, or, Gallifrance. After drinking the Doctors under the table the town was named XO Cognac.
2640BC: After being bribed with some fine spirits from XO Cognac the investors started to again fund research.

Worker Stealing:
I almost had a chance at stealing a working from Joao. However, in the test game every time I declared war, the worker retreated to Lisbon. So I did not try in the real game. Lisbon looks like it is only defended by 2 Warriors. I did not see any Archers.

At Berlin a worker just started to Pasture the Cow. Berlin is defended by 2 Archers and 2 Warriors. In addition to the Farmed Wheat, Berlin has Pastured Pigs and a Mine.

Lisbon 2640BC

Spoiler :

Berlin 2640BC

Spoiler :

Here is the Real Game Save. The game is paused and the warrior by Lisbon can move, likewise the scout can move.
A test game reflecting the above is in my next post.

 

[Jersey Joe]

Here is a new test game as of 2640BC. It reflects recent play and incorporates the corrections for inaccuracies that have been pointed out in previous posts

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I like the comedic style of the write-up. It's quite entertaining to read!


In the test game, Joao is slow-building an Archer and may be doing the same thing in the real game. In the real game, he must not yet know Animal Husbandry, otherwise he'd probably be Pasturing his Horse. I suppose that he is headed to Chop a P Riv For. Yes, we didn't have a chance to steal a Worker from him. We can only steal a Worker that on the edge of our Cultural Borders in a spot adjacent to Warrior 2, and Joao's Worker did not move to such a location and instead just moved 1 N and Roaded and then 1 N again and Roaded.


Whoever plays next needs to keep in mind that the Scout dare not move--although we can't see the Light Blue Cultural Borders yet in the test game, if you open up the World Builder in the test game, you will see that they have expanded quite far. Any sort of "seemingly harmless" exploration with the Scout will be harmful.

Similarly, "seemingly harmless" exploration with either Warrior could also be harmful.

Meeting another AI at this point of the game could make it really tough to get medium-term techs in trade, such as Calendar, Aesthetics, etc, and moving our Scout (or our Warriors toward the unmet AIs) could cause us to meet another AI, as per the test game.


In the real game, Frederick is running Slavery. So, theoretically, we have a one-turn window in which to try to steal his Worker.

But, he's stacked the odds against us by putting 2 of his Warriors into Berlin. Even if one of them does not randomly decide to guard his Worker, one or both of them could randomly decide to wander to the squares adjacent to the Worker, meaning that they could attack our Warrior if we declared war and stole a Worker.

In BtS, unlike in Vanilla, a captured Worker does not get any movement points on the turn of capture.

The odds are highly stacked against us from being able to steal that Worker.

But, we could get extremely lucky, with at least one and hopefully both of Frederick's Warriors moving northward (NW, N, or NE).

Anyway, there is a chance, but we won't know what our chance is until after we've ended the turn.

Note that in the test game, I even tried capturing a Worker that was defended by Frederick's Warrior. One time we lost. Another time we had 1.2 Health and neither Archer attacked us.

It won't be a matter of opinions until the start of next turn, and then we can see whether it will even be worth it to have a discussion about whether it makes sense to steal a Worker based on what we see.


Turn 34, 2640 BC EP values
Stalin 6/0
Churchill 193/136
Frederick 156/0
Joao 0/0

Known AI-AI relationships:
Frederick and Stalin know each other and are each others' Worst Enemies
Joao must know at least one other AI, probably the yellow one, otherwise Joao would have spent EPs on us

There are 54 population points in the world, of which 4 are ours.


Jersey Joe, can you bring us forward 1 more turn? There's not much to do...
i. Warrior 2 and our Scout don't go anywhere, and we will just Skip their turns
ii. when Paris grows next turn, it will automatically work a G For with its 4th citizen
iii. we don't need to make any movements and we can literally just pause the game at the start of T35, 2600 BC, take a screenshot of the Berlin area, and upload the game

Or, if you don't have time, let us know, as anyone could do it, really (as long as 2 people don't do it!).


EDIT: Events are off, right? So, what's with the 5-Hammer square 1 S of Berlin? Uhhh... Copper? It couldn't be Iron as Frederick only recently switched into Slavery and AIs don't delay their first Civic switch of the game. I suppose that we also need luck for Frederick not to have the funds to upgrade his Warriors.


EDIT 2: In the real game, we don't have a Forest 1 SW + 1 S of Warrior 1. If we believe the test game's Culture and we fix that square, then moving to 2 SE of Berlin would also mean meeting the Light Blue AI. So, we don't want to move any further south in the real game and we'd only end up 2 SE of Berlin if we were to choose to steal a Worker and get teleported there. If we were to choose not to steal a Worker, we wouldn't dare to head any further south and would head north-westerly with Warrior 1 after making the decision about stealing a Worker.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Good show, Joe. Hope you can add at least one other turn.

Dhoom, are you arguing that we should not move our missionary to explore Lisbon and on to the west for fear of contacting another AI? If we aren't going to do that with him, why not use him to convert Cognac and get access to the horses? We could move warrior1 into Lisbon as well, and, if the worker does not move east and present himself for stealing, then we could explore west with the warrior and still move the missionary to Cognac.

 

[Jersey Joe]

Glad you enjoyed the report.
Playing 1 more turn. Will report back shortly.

 

[Jersey Joe]

Actual Play:
T35-2600BC The population in Paris increases and to meet the demand from XO Cognac for oak casks an enterprising group of citizens moves into the forests to make the casks.
Further south our Missionary, looking for people to convert, goes to the City of Lisbon. He finds out that the city has already been converted to Christianity.
Edit: Stalin asked for Open Borders and I declined.

Lisbon 2600BC

Spoiler :

Berlin 2600BC

Spoiler :

Real Game at 2600BC Both Warriors can move.

Test game in my next post.

 

[Jersey Joe]

Here is a test game updated to 2600BC.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Lisbon is a GP farm that I fear other teams already own.

Thinking we might position our Berlin warrior 1S and hope we get lucky.

 

[pigswill]

Does southern warrior need to head back to Paris as MP unit?

Missionary NW.

Eastern warrior probably where DS said: between sheep and fish, maybe Fred will improve sheep after T35 border pop, maybe not, but seems as good a place as any if we really want to steal a worker.

I wonder how soon barbs will cross borders, a barb warrior in fog between Paris and Berlin could be end of game.

Worker moves and builds are pretty much set in stone until T50.

 

[Folket]

I tried to attack Portugal with Chariots in the test game but it did not work well. Either way Portugal has to go fast.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Lisbon is a GP farm that I fear other teams already own.

I'm not sure what makes you think so. Phoenix Rising played the same opening as us and went for the Turn-55 Alphabet approach, so they didn't go after an early Bronze Working. Turbo Ants went for an even earlier Alphabet approach that matches with our early test runs of settling 2 Cities on the same River and skipping self-teching of Fishing, which also means no rush to Bronze Working. Without early Bronze Working, no one will be successful with an early Chariot rush.

Thinking we might position our Berlin warrior 1S and hope we get lucky.

Nope, it's too late. Berlin has 99 Culture. It's either this turn or later when we declare war. I'm not sure about the overall team sentiment, but I am not comfortable with attacking a Warrior with 50% odds and then having to defend against a second Warrior in between turns.

The silver lining is that Frederick does not yet have The Wheel. So, if we head to the north-west with Warrior 1 right away, there's a good chance that we will be able to steal Frederick's Worker up by that Sheep if he goes to improve it before he learns The Wheel. That's exactly what we can do in the test game (try it out in the test game, where Frederick is busy researching The Wheel and heads to that north-west G Riv Sheep with his Worker next).

Going any further south with Warrior 1 gives us a very high chance of meeting the Light Blue AI, so that's another reason to head north-west now.

Does southern warrior need to head back to Paris as MP unit?

That's correct. We need to move Warrior 2 into Paris on Turn 42 at the latest.

Lisbon will also have 99 Culture now, so its Cultural Borders will also expand in between turns.

In the test game, Joao's Worker just builds a bunch of Roads in silly spots. It would have been nice if he would have sent his Worker to the PH Riv For square on which our Warrior 2 is now standing, but that doesn't happen in the test game, so I hold little hope for it happening in the real game.

We could theoretically camp out Warrior 2 on the GH For that is 1 NE + 2 N of Joao's Horse until Turn 38, but it might be better to move him sooner, say, on Turn 37 or earlier, so that we don't end up forgetting and thereby delaying our Paris Library.

Missionary NW.

In the test game, which seems to match the real game for what Joao's Worker has done, the Road 1 W of Lisbon will be completed next turn, so we could move 1 W P Riv For Road and then move to the P Riv For square that is 1 NW + 1 N of Lisbon all next turn.

We just need to avoid going toward the south-east and we won't meet the Yellow AI. On our way back north, we can simply avoid Yellow by doing something like moving to the P Riv For that is 1 NE + 1 N of Lisbon, then moving due north-east from there.


The trickiest micro for the next little while will be remembering to work the Cow in XO Cognac on Turn 36 and to steal back the Fur in Paris on Turn 36. Other than that, the City micro plays itself for the next little while.

Once XO Cognac has built its Work Boat, and we remember to switch to working the netted Fish with our second XO Cognac citizen at that time, I will suggest that we put 2 turns of Hammers into a Warrior, after which point we will grow to Size 3 and we'll need to remember to start building a Settler there.

I wonder how soon barbs will cross borders, a barb warrior in fog between Paris and Berlin could be end of game.

On a crowded map like this one, I wouldn't even worry about it.

In an absolute emergency situation, we can build a Warrior in Paris in the span of 3 turns, which is just enough turns needed if a Barb Human Unit were to show up at the edge of our visible area to the east of Paris. Plus, we have a Scout that we could stuff into Paris, too. Thanks to our spawn-busting and the Peaks to the east of Paris, plus the crowded map, though, it's a non-issue.

Worker moves and builds are pretty much set in stone until T50.

Yes, although what we do after Camping the Deer is debateable.

I'd probably say:
T36 Finish the G Cow Pasture
T37 Move to 1 SW of Paris
T38 Move to the Deer
T39 Camp the Deer
T43 Move 1 N (1 NE of Paris)
T44 Road 1 NE of Paris
T46 Move to 1 SW of Paris > partial Farm > STOP
T47 Move to the Horse > partial Road > STOP
T48 Pasture the Horse
T52 Finish Roading the Horse

We don't need a Road on the Deer in order to connect-up the Deer, whereas we'll want a Road 1 NE of Paris for our north-east City.


Who wants to take this turnset?

There's a chance to finally be able to steal Frederick's Worker on the G Riv Sheep that is 1 NW + 2 N of Berlin.

There is some micro to remember, but it's not very intensive.

We have very limited ways in which to move our units, so there's no real room for creativity, but it's an important turnset for getting us toward Alphabet without meeting more AIs.

I tried to attack Portugal with Chariots in the test game but it did not work well. Either way Portugal has to go fast.

In the short-term, Portugal may be our best trading partner, since Stalin won't trade techs, Churchill may not trade techs until he meets someone else (say, Portugal), and we may be at war with Frederick (although we should be able to take a Cease Fire by the time that Alphabet comes in if all goes well).

It would be nice if we let Portugal build us at least a second City, both to make it less likely that he'll stuff 5+ Archers into a single City and to benefit more from a war.

He's still building Work Boats for us, having just build the 2nd of 4 needed Work Boats.

We also want to make sure that once we start our warring, we've got enough critical mass to keep on capturing Cities. Portugal is out of the way and can be marginalized for an easy war later. I'm wondering more about how we take down Germany or England efficiently, as Portugal looks quite blocked in. We might even want Portugal to settle an overseas City for us to easily capture later.

Theoretically, Portugal doesn't have to die, assuming that this map is geographical, but Berlin would have to fall. Berlin's Riverside Copper is an annoyance that won't be trivial to deal with, although maybe we'll just end up making Germany much less of a threat if we can steal its Worker on the G Riv Sheep.

I'm not saying that we won't take out Portugal, but they're an easy target to plan for and I'd rather that we put on our thinking caps in terms of figuring out how to effectively take on either Germany or England.


We also need to have a plan for The Great Lighthouse. Assuming that we'll build it in XO Cognac, we might be short on troops early on, but failing to build that Wonder will probably cost us any shot at the Golden Laurels.

Lisbon isn't a practical location for putting The Great Lighthouse, as it will take too long to capture it, get it out of City Resistance, then send a horde of Workers down to there just to Chop out that Wonder while racing against other AIs who may have also been gifted a Lighthouse at the start of the game.


EDIT: 1 AI has 90000 points for Population while another AI is stuck with a Size-1 City with 1000 points for Population. We're 4th with 49000 Points, just a bit above the average.

There are 56 (56 - 54 = +2) citizens in the world, 5 of which are ours.

Turn 35, 2600 BC EP values
Stalin 8/0 (+2)
Churchill 200/140 (+7)
Frederick 156/0 (+0)
Joao 0/0 (+0)

 

[pigswill]

We shouldn't forget about Stalin. I don't know about other people but when I've met him in solo games he has a habit of spamming units, making aggressive demands, not trading and being a general pain in the 'neck'. If we stomp Fred he'll be our neighbour.

There's also the light blue civ to consider, maybe they'll be a better target.

There will be plenty of time between learning alphabet and getting an army organised to explore our options (as long as we remember to explore ).

Locating Istanbul could be useful because that's our first destination and we can plan the most efficient way to get the land in between.

 

[Cactus Pete]

"no one will be successful with an early Chariot rush." I'm concerned that someone found Lisbon early and made a warrior rush. Didn't one of the AIs have a climbing power graph early on?

"Nope, it's too late. Berlin has 99 Culture. It's either this turn or later when we declare war. I'm not sure about the overall team sentiment, but I am not comfortable with attacking a Warrior with 50% odds and then having to defend against a second Warrior in between turns." Understood. Let's herd the sheep.

"We could theoretically camp out Warrior 2 on the GH For that is 1 NE + 2 N of Joao's Horse until Turn 38, but it might be better to move him sooner, say, on Turn 37 or earlier, so that we don't end up forgetting and thereby delaying our Paris Library." I'm for camping him there until the last possible moment.

I can't see anything south of warrior 1. Where, exactly, is the light blue civ?

Is there not some concern that our missionary will spot an African civ across the Strait of Gibraltar, or is it certain that our flat world falls into the abyss west of Portugal?

 

[Jersey Joe]

I can't see anything south of warrior 1. Where, exactly, is the light blue civ??

A piece of the light blue border can be seen at the edge of the fog East of the gem hill. This was discovered by our scout around turn 3. In the test game Athens was placed east of that spot to produce what border could be seen. Athens borders have expanded since then and they are now 2-3 tiles south of Germany.

Is there not some concern that our missionary will spot an African civ across the Strait of Gibraltar, or is it certain that our flat world falls into the abyss west of Portugal?

When I move the missionary into Lisbon I did not know the strait existed. The 1 tile of fog west of Lisbon is the furthest west we can go on the map. However, there are about 10 rows of tiles south of Lisbon. There is the change that an AI scout might spot our missionary.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I can't see anything south of warrior 1. Where, exactly, is the light blue civ?

To the south-east of us and to the south of Germany. We saw a hint of that AI's Cultural Borders earlier on in the game. Since that time, the Cultural Borders will have expanded, but the expansion of Cultural Borders is something that does not get updated in the fog of war.

The fog of war is the light-black colouring of squares that we cannot currently see but have revealed in the past.

Here are some images of how (as per the test game) we'd undesirably meet the Light Blue AI or the Yellow AI by moving our units in the wrong directions:

Spoiler :

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Our Missionary could have spotted AI Cultural Borders but did not spot any such Cultural Borders. The Missionary's proposed movements therefore won't reveal any new Cultural Borders.

What could happen is that an AI settles a City down there in between turns and our Missionary spots its Cultural Borders before the start of our next turn.

There is the chance that an AI scout might spot our missionary.

That situation won't be realistically possible.

Our Missionary cannot see any of the land squares across of the way and thus wouldn't see an AI Unit. An AI Unit therefore also wouldn't be able to see our Missionary, unless that AI Unit had the Sentry Promotion (which gives units +1 Visibility Range). It usually takes a Chariot 5 XP (or 4 XP with a Charismatic Leader) to be able to get that Promotion. I don't think that I've ever seen an AI choose to take that Promotion.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

We shouldn't forget about Stalin. I don't know about other people but when I've met him in solo games he has a habit of spamming units, making aggressive demands, not trading and being a general pain in the 'neck'. If we stomp Fred he'll be our neighbour.

His Demands are not to be taken lightly:
iDemandRebukedSneakProb = 60
iDemandRebukedWarProb = 20

He's relatively unlikely to make a Demand, though, needing a 1 out of 1000 chance to do so:
DEMAND_TRIBUTE = 1000 (compare that to 25 for De Gaulle, Genghis Khan, Montezuma, Napoleon, or Sitting Bull, and 50 for Catherine, Isabella, Joao, and Louis XIV)

But, he may make a Request for Help a reasonable amount of the time:
ASK_FOR_HELP = 250

His preference for building Units is relatively high
iBuildUnitProb = 30 (AIs with a higher value are Alexander, Genghis Khan, Justinian, Mehmed, Montezuma, Napoleon, Ragnar, Shaka, and Sitting Bull)


As for aggressive demands, I see them as a good thing. As long as you aren't going to declare war on an AI in the next 10 turns, give into a Demand or a Request for Help and you'll get +1 Diplo Attitude with that AI.

Giving is also means that neither side can declare war on each other for 10 turns, so giving into Demands/Requests is a good way to keep other AIs out of our existing wars.

As long as we don't do questionable things, such as learn or trade for Feudalism early, no AI can Demand/Request Feudalism from us. I'd probably give into a Demand/Request for most other techs, although perhaps not Nationalism before we'd built The Taj Mahal, and perhaps not Education if we were delaying learning Liberalism.


So, who's got time to play the next turnset?

 

[pigswill]

Back in RL my wife's in hospital so I'm tired and distracted. Not a good time to play a set.