SGOTM 23 - Xteam

Before we give up on Moscow, what about putting a chariot on the grass 1N of the city to see if a spearman will attack him?
It's certainly an option, but there's a risk of still not being able to capture the City.

Meanwhile, planning for what could be in Rostov instead of what's in Rostov now, we could be facing an Archer, an Axeman, and a whipped Unit, but they would be defending on flatland instead of on a Hills square, and only 1 Unit instead of 3 Moscow's Units would have a Fortification bonus, so I think that our army could take it on with little risk of failure.

Baiting a Spearman with a Chariot would probably work if we didn't have a large stack right next to his City, but BtS AIs don't tend to be that careless with their City Defenders when a large army is at their gates. My earlier suggestion of baiting with a Warrior didn't make Stalin's Archers even bat an eye at Yakutsk--they totally ignored the bait, and the idea didn't work out.

As you mentioned, there's the Archer at 1 E of the City which we'd have to kill with a Horse Archer, but then a Spearman might attack and get an easy kill it because it could use the Road to return to Moscow.

If we sent multiple Horse Archers to 1 E of Moscow, a Spearman might still attack and get a kill, as it could remain within the City when attacking an adjacent Unit when that adjacent Unit is in a stack.

Or, it might not attack, and with the newly-whipped Spearman not yet having taken its Barracks Promotion, it will be even stronger next turn with its Promotion, while we'd have a wounded Horse Archer.

Then, there's also whatever Unit gets whipped inside of Moscow to deal with.


So far, we haven't committed any Units to attacking Moscow and haven't lost anything there, so we haven't lost anything but an opportunity that, unfortunately, wasn't really available.


I see no problem with keeping our army alive and taking Rostov, which is already 1 more City than we'd originally planned to capture in the first war.

From there, we'll see, but Yaroslavl' should likely also be possible before we Cease Fire because we hopefully will not lose a lot of Units to capture our next City capture if we grab Rostov. Yaroslavl' is also pretty easy to take on, with only a 20% defensive bonus on flatland.

We already have a Catapult close to completion in Cologne which won't take too long to Galley-chain to the front lines, so with a bit of patience, we can take down Moscow using the traditional siege approach.

Also, it seems that Stalin has been fighting at Rostov, so Mehmed probably has been helping us out. If we take down Rostov, we might be able to get Mehmed to send Units to help out at Moscow, as well.



Where is Big Game #2?
2 NW + 1 W of Paris, where Jersey Joe put the "Big Game" sign.

It's a City that we will gift to Hatty. When we gift her the City, we'll have 5 Spies having existed on that square for 6 turns (5 turns of not moving) or more, so that they will get their full Stationary Bonus discount.

We will then use the Spies inside of a City of Hatty's to perform Steal Technology Espionage Missions. She'll own the City, so it will be her City. But, all of the Culture in the City will be ours, so we will get the maximum Culture discount on any Espionage Mission that we perform.

The cost of a Steal Technology Espionage Mission is about 2 times the cost of researching a technology. So, on paper, it doesn't seem worth it to steal technologies. But, when you get the number of discounts that we will get, the cost is closer to 1/5th of the cost to research a technology. For Steal Technology Espionage Missions to be effective, you really have to ensure that you have multiple discounts stacked together.

A similar line of thinking applies to stacking Bureaucracy together with an Academy and Oxford University, where 1 Commerce really goes a long way in terms of total Flasks earned.


We could still move some units 1SW of Moscow toward Rostov this turn.
That's a possibility. 1 SW of Moscow is still 2 turns away from being able to attack Rostov, so it is equally distant to Rostov as is 1 W of Moscow.

If we were to choose to go after Rostov after moving to 1 SW of Moscow, we'd spend 1 additional turn, during which time Stalin could whip a second Unit in Rostov instead of just the one Unit that he could whip if we were to go directly for Rostov now, and taking Rostov would get harder, particularly if we had some Units out of position (a Horse Archer to the east of Moscow and a Chariot to the north of Moscow would not be able to join in on the Rostov attack, possibly making it 10 vs 4 with a 50% City Defensive bonus, which doesn't make for as easy odds as we can get by going for Rostov directly; I much prefer the sounds of 12 vs 3).
 
We've been low on participation of enough players for so long that yes, we really need a deadline extension to put out a competitive game.
Okay, I agree.

Our team Captain, I guess that is you Dhoomstriker, should let BSP know we agree to the extension.

I agree with the tactics you suggest and will be playing soon.
 
Our team Captain
It's hard to say who that is at the moment, but I wouldn't put my name on the list. It's either NobleZarkon or CactusPete in NobleZarkon's absence, and CP already let me know that he'd replied.

My role is more of Annoying Advisor--think of the one that frustrates you the most from the Civ series. :lol:

Good luck! :goodjob:


Thinking it about some more, let's not Pillage our Fish Resources at York and the City to the north-west of Paris. With Hatty and Joao in Caste System, they won't be able to whip Units, and if we choose to recapture those Cities later, it'll be nice that they have grown to a reasonable City Size.
 
It's hard to say who that is at the moment, but I wouldn't put my name on the list. It's either NobleZarkon or CactusPete in NobleZarkon's absence, and CP already let me know that he'd replied.

My role is more of Annoying Advisor--think of the one that frustrates you the most from the Civ series. :lol:
Who frustrates me most? :hmm: :think: The developers of Civ 5 who ruined the series? :aargh:
Actually while you might be annoying at times you are always informative.
 
write-up

T101, 350BC (continued)
Switch Research rate to 0% Espionage rate to 100% on Hatty

Joao will not trade for Polytheism (he is 1 turn away from learning it). So I trade him Priesthood for 10 gold and gift him Polytheism.

We trade Fur to Mao for Rice. We Open Borders with Mao.

We Declare War on Churchill.

We capture St. Pete (it has a lighthouse).

Our Strike force in Russia moves toward Rostov.

Between Turns: Normal happenings.

T102, 325BC

St. Pete has grown to size 10.
Ruby Bay unveils the Hanging Gardens.
A forest grows near York.

We Gift Monarchy and Philosophy to the broke Joao.

We build a city named Jackpot.

At Rostov: Our Horse Archer defeats an Archer. Our Horse Archer Losses to Axeman. Zhuge kills a Horse Archer. Our Chariot kills axeman and captures Rostov. Rostov has a Granary.

Stopped after the victory.

Here are the logs:
Session Turn Log from 350 BC to 325 BC:
Spoiler :
Turn 101, 350 BC: Orleans has grown to size 4.
Turn 101, 350 BC: Orleans can hurry Christian Monastery for 2⇴ with 19ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 47 turns.
Turn 101, 350 BC: London can hurry Axeman for 1⇴ with 14ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 39 turns.
Turn 101, 350 BC: Athens will be pacified on the next turn.
Turn 101, 350 BC: Mao Zedong is the worst enemy of Churchill.
Turn 101, 350 BC: Mao Zedong will trade Rice
Turn 101, 350 BC: Will Sign Open Borders: Mao Zedong
Turn 101, 350 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Ruby Bay.
Turn 101, 350 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Ruby Bay.
Turn 101, 350 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Ruby Bay.
Turn 101, 350 BC: Athens will be pacified on the next turn.
Turn 101, 350 BC: You are the worst enemy of Frederick, Stalin.
Turn 101, 350 BC: Darius I is the worst enemy of Mehmed II, Saladin, Kublai Khan.
Turn 101, 350 BC: Mehmed II is the worst enemy of Darius I.
Turn 101, 350 BC: Hatshepsut is the worst enemy of Joao II.
Turn 101, 350 BC: Stalin is the worst enemy of Hatshepsut.
Turn 101, 350 BC: Mao Zedong is the worst enemy of Churchill.
Turn 101, 350 BC: Mao Zedong will trade Rice
Turn 101, 350 BC: Will Sign Open Borders: Darius I, Joao II, Mao Zedong
Turn 101, 350 BC: Will Sign Peace Treaty: Stalin
Turn 101, 350 BC: Deal Canceled: Fish to Churchill for Gold Per Turn (1)
Turn 101, 350 BC: Deal Canceled: Open Borders to Churchill for Open Borders
Turn 101, 350 BC: You have declared war on Churchill!
Turn 101, 350 BC: Churchill refuses to talk.
Turn 101, 350 BC: You have captured St. Pete!!!
Turn 101, 350 BC: You have constructed a Christian Monastery in Orleans. Work has now begun on a Settler.
Turn 101, 350 BC: You have trained a Work Boat in Hamburg. Work has now begun on a Axeman.
Turn 101, 350 BC: Napoleon REAL has completed The Hanging Gardens!
Turn 101, 350 BC: You have constructed The Hanging Gardens in Ruby Bay. Work has now begun on a Granary.
Turn 101, 350 BC: A Forest has grown near York!

Turn 102, 325 BC: Paris has grown to size 7.
Turn 102, 325 BC: XO Cognac has grown to size 3.
Turn 102, 325 BC: Orleans has grown to size 4.
Turn 102, 325 BC: Lyons has grown to size 5.
Turn 102, 325 BC: Lyons has become unhappy.
Turn 102, 325 BC: London has grown to size 4.
Turn 102, 325 BC: London can hurry Courthouse for 2⇴ with 14ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 38 turns.
Turn 102, 325 BC: York has grown to size 4.
Turn 102, 325 BC: York can hurry Horse Archer for 2⇴ with 30ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 102, 325 BC: Argent has grown to size 3.
Turn 102, 325 BC: Hamburg has grown to size 2.
Turn 102, 325 BC: Hamburg can hurry Axeman for 1⇴ with 11ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 30 turns.
Turn 102, 325 BC: Cologne has grown to size 2.
Turn 102, 325 BC: Ruby Bay has grown to size 2.
Turn 102, 325 BC: Ruby Bay can hurry Granary for 1⇴ with 4ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 17 turns.
Turn 102, 325 BC: Athens has been pacified.
Turn 102, 325 BC: Athens has grown to size 4.
Turn 102, 325 BC: Ivory Coast has grown to size 2.
Turn 102, 325 BC: Ivory Coast can hurry Work Boat for 1⇴ with 20ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 102, 325 BC: Gold Coast has grown to size 2.
Turn 102, 325 BC: Gold Coast can hurry Lighthouse for 1⇴ with 8ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 102, 325 BC: St. Pete has grown to size 10.
Turn 102, 325 BC: Stalin has 70 gold available for trade.
Turn 102, 325 BC: You are the worst enemy of Churchill.
Turn 102, 325 BC: The borders of Hamburg are about to expand.
Turn 102, 325 BC: The borders of Cologne are about to expand.
Turn 102, 325 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Argent.
Turn 102, 325 BC: Jackpot has been founded.
Turn 102, 325 BC: Napoleon REAL's Horse Archer 4 (Paris) (6.60) vs Stalin's Archer (7.35)
Turn 102, 325 BC: Combat Odds: 31.5%
Turn 102, 325 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 102, 325 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 102, 325 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 102, 325 BC: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 102, 325 BC: Stalin's Archer is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 102, 325 BC: Napoleon REAL's Horse Archer 4 (Paris) is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 102, 325 BC: Stalin's Archer is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 102, 325 BC: Napoleon REAL's Horse Archer 4 (Paris) is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 102, 325 BC: Napoleon REAL's Horse Archer 4 (Paris) is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 102, 325 BC: Stalin's Archer is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 102, 325 BC: Napoleon REAL's Horse Archer 4 (Paris) is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 102, 325 BC: Stalin's Archer is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 102, 325 BC: Stalin's Archer is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 102, 325 BC: Stalin's Archer is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 102, 325 BC: Napoleon REAL's Horse Archer 4 (Paris) has defeated Stalin's Archer!
Turn 102, 325 BC: Your Horse Archer 4 (Paris) has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 102, 325 BC: Napoleon REAL's Horse Archer 7 (Orleans) (6.60) vs Stalin's Axeman (6.59)
Turn 102, 325 BC: Combat Odds: 50.2%
Turn 102, 325 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 102, 325 BC: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 102, 325 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 102, 325 BC: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 102, 325 BC: Napoleon REAL's Horse Archer 7 (Orleans) is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 102, 325 BC: Napoleon REAL's Horse Archer 7 (Orleans) is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 102, 325 BC: Stalin's Axeman is hit for 19 (72/100HP)
Turn 102, 325 BC: Stalin's Axeman is hit for 19 (53/100HP)
Turn 102, 325 BC: Napoleon REAL's Horse Archer 7 (Orleans) is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 102, 325 BC: Napoleon REAL's Horse Archer 7 (Orleans) is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 102, 325 BC: Stalin's Axeman is hit for 19 (34/100HP)
Turn 102, 325 BC: Stalin's Axeman is hit for 19 (15/100HP)
Turn 102, 325 BC: Napoleon REAL's Horse Archer 7 (Orleans) is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 102, 325 BC: Stalin's Axeman has defeated Napoleon REAL's Horse Archer 7 (Orleans)!
Turn 102, 325 BC: Your Horse Archer 7 (Orleans) has died trying to attack a Axeman!
Turn 102, 325 BC: Napoleon REAL's Zhuge Liang (Horse Archer) (6.60) vs Stalin's Horse Archer (6.00)
Turn 102, 325 BC: Combat Odds: 68.1%
Turn 102, 325 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 102, 325 BC: Napoleon REAL's Zhuge Liang (Horse Archer) is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 102, 325 BC: Stalin's Horse Archer is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 102, 325 BC: Napoleon REAL's Zhuge Liang (Horse Archer) is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 102, 325 BC: Napoleon REAL's Zhuge Liang (Horse Archer) is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 102, 325 BC: Stalin's Horse Archer is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 102, 325 BC: Stalin's Horse Archer is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 102, 325 BC: Stalin's Horse Archer is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 102, 325 BC: Napoleon REAL's Zhuge Liang (Horse Archer) is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 102, 325 BC: Stalin's Horse Archer is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 102, 325 BC: Napoleon REAL's Zhuge Liang (Horse Archer) has defeated Stalin's Horse Archer!
Turn 102, 325 BC: Your Zhuge Liang has destroyed a Horse Archer!
Turn 102, 325 BC: Napoleon REAL's Chariot 5 (Lyons) (4.80) vs Stalin's Axeman (0.57)
Turn 102, 325 BC: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 102, 325 BC: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 102, 325 BC: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 102, 325 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 102, 325 BC: (Class Attack: -100%)
Turn 102, 325 BC: Stalin's Axeman is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 102, 325 BC: Napoleon REAL's Chariot 5 (Lyons) has defeated Stalin's Axeman!
Turn 102, 325 BC: Your Chariot 5 (Lyons) has destroyed a Axeman!
Turn 102, 325 BC: You have captured Rostov!!!

Autolog:
Spoiler :
]Turn 101/500 (350 BC) [16-Aug-2016 03:32:58][/u]
Tech traded to Joao II (Portugal): Priesthood
Tech traded to Joao II (Portugal): Polytheism
Napoleon REAL (France) declares war on Churchill (England)
Judaism has spread: St. Pete
Captured St. Pete (Churchill)
St. Pete begins: Granary (61 turns)
0% Research: 8 per turn
100% Espionage: 153 per turn
0% Gold: -127 per turn, 407 in the bank

After End Turn:
Paris grows to size 6
Orleans grows to size 3
Orleans finishes: Christian Monastery
Hamburg finishes: Work Boat
Ruby Bay finishes: The Hanging Gardens

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Churchill (England) towards Napoleon REAL (France), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'
Attitude Change: Hatshepsut (Egypt) towards Mao Zedong (China), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'

Turn 102/500 (325 BC) [16-Aug-2016 04:03:31]
Orleans begins: Christian Missionary (4 turns)
Hamburg begins: Granary (30 turns)
Tech traded to Joao II (Portugal): Monarchy
Tech traded to Joao II (Portugal): Philosophy
A Camp was built near Argent
Rheims founded
Jackpot begins: Chariot (30 turns)
While attacking, Horse Archer 4 (Paris) decimates Russian Archer (Prob Victory: 31.5%)
While attacking in Russian territory at Rostov, Horse Archer 4 (Paris) (0.96/6) defeats Russian Archer (Prob Victory: 31.5%)
Chariot 5 (Lyons) promoted: Combat II
While attacking, Horse Archer 7 (Orleans) escapes from Russian Axeman (Prob Victory: 50.2%)
While attacking in Russian territory at Rostov, Horse Archer 7 (Orleans) loses to Russian Axeman (0.75/5) (Prob Victory: 50.2%)
While attacking, Zhuge Liang (Horse Archer) decimates Russian Horse Archer (Prob Victory: 68.1%)
While attacking in Russian territory at Rostov, Zhuge Liang (1.44/6) defeats Russian Horse Archer (Prob Victory: 68.1%)
While attacking, Chariot 5 (Lyons) decimates Russian Axeman (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
While attacking in Russian territory at Rostov, Chariot 5 (Lyons) (4.00/4) defeats Russian Axeman (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
Captured Rostov (Stalin)
Rostov begins: Courthouse (121 turns)


The Saved Game.
 
Joao will not trade for Polytheism (he is 1 turn away from learning it)
Whoops, thanks for recovering from that.

Nice work! 1 Horse Archer for a City is a great trade.

If you are continuing, here are some initial suggestions. If you aren't continuing, then I assume that one of us is going to have to help CP put a PPP together.

Grow Paris. Scientist Specialists can possibly be hired later when we're in a Golden Age and have Christianity there so that we can benefit from Pacifism; right now, growth is what we need. 1 population point now means 45 whipped Hammers after Bureaucracy. So, for example, 4 population points could mean a Market.

If it means putting both Chariots and the Horse Archer into Paris, that's what we will do. We'll get Gold and Wine online quite soon, though.

Probably, next turn Chariot 10 (the healthy one) advances forward while we have HA 9 healing in Paris and Chariot 13 healing in Orleans, ready to head back to Paris, if needed.

If absolutely necessary, though, Chariot 10 could load onto Galley 2 next turn, then on the following turn, we could unload Chariot 10 directly in York, having it able to move 1 turn later than York's Horse Archer can move, to help out at Nottingham.


XO Cognac Coast -> Horse

Lyons will need to build something other than the Galley, perhaps switching to a Courthouse, which we could whip and overflow into a Lighthouse. With the Galley almost complete, it's easy enough to get 2 Galleys at any time that we want them, but it seems that we don't quite need them yet.

London can do its thing as you have planned

Hamburg could probably whip its Axeman, as we only need to collect the Forest's Hammers into a Granary next turn

On T103, Cologne can 1-pop-whip its Catapult

Athens could slow-build a Lighthouse and then slow-build a Granary. Seeing as how we are stagnant, but make a decent amount of Hammers, getting the Lighthouse means gaining +1 Food per turn, while getting the Granary won't do anything until after our Cultural Borders have expanded and we can grow the City.

Ivory Coast can whip its Work Boat and work the Ivory, then it can plan to build another Work Boat

Gold Coast can wait to whip its Lighthouse until the turn when we complete the Gold Mine (T104), so we can switch the Plains square to the Gold square on T103, to trade our 1 Food from the Food bin and 1 Food from the Plains square for additional inputs of 1 Hammer and 2 Commerce

Jackpot can build Wealth and work the Stone

Maybe after the Lighthouse, Argent could start to slow-build a Catapult


If Galley 6 should just wait for both Spies 4 and 2

Worker 7 can probably move to the Iron, with us working the Iron on turns when we are building the Settler

I imagine that after the Winery, Worker 1 will start building Cottages that are shared between Paris and Lyons

In the future, I imagine that Worker 2 should build a Road on the Gold, then a Road on the Plains at 1 N of Gold Coast, then start building a Road on the Incense, at which point we need to decide between heading back to the other Gold Resource or building a Plantation

With Churchill's Axeman not on its Galley, Worker 4 can Mine and STOP


With a full-health Unit defending Rostov and 2 wounded Units nearby that might take the brunt of any attacks from hidden Units of Stalin's, we could potentially just move all of our remaining 8 Units toward Yaroslavl' by moving to the GH For at 3 S of Moscow (SE > E with the Axeman and E > SE with the mounted Units).

It could be 8 Units vs 4 Units with a whipped defender and that Archer moving into Yaroslavl', but if we head out now, there won't be time for Moscow's Spearmen to help defend Yaroslavl'.

As long as a Spearman doesn't get whipped in Yaroslavl', with the City's 20% Defensive Bonus, I think that 8 vs 4 should be enough to take the City. If a Spearman gets whipped, we might need to wait on capturing the City

I'm assuming that Axeman 3 could move 1 NE G For and might be able to capture the Worker, but if the Worker isn't on the Fur (say, it got disbanded or is on the Galley), we could move back 1 SW to 2 S of Nottingham, or if the Worker is guarded, we could also move back 1 SW G For... if the Worker is guarded, then on T103 it would make sense to move to the Sheep (not on T102) to force the Unit to either attack us or to walk into the Forest at 1 SE of York, which would be too late to help defend York

I'd probably have Galley 4 plan to pick up Cologne's Catapult at 1 NE of Hamburg, leaving Galley 1 and Galley 5 to chain Hamburg's Axeman to St. Pete's

I'm okay with another couple of turns of EPs on Hatty (we should do some test game checking to see how many EPs we'll need) and then possibly collecting Gold, since we'll get a 20% boost to researching Paper after we steal Civil Service

An expensive Civic such as Bureaucracy is relatively cheap for an Organized Leader, who gets a discount on the cost of Civics

Joao can get Monotheism this turn, since he started to research it
 
If you are continuing, here are some initial suggestions. If you aren't continuing, then I assume that one of us is going to have to help CP put a PPP together.

Spoiler :
Grow Paris. Scientist Specialists can possibly be hired later when we're in a Golden Age and have Christianity there so that we can benefit from Pacifism; right now, growth is what we need. 1 population point now means 45 whipped Hammers after Bureaucracy. So, for example, 4 population points could mean a Market.

If it means putting both Chariots and the Horse Archer into Paris, that's what we will do. We'll get Gold and Wine online quite soon, though.

Probably, next turn Chariot 10 (the healthy one) advances forward while we have HA 9 healing in Paris and Chariot 13 healing in Orleans, ready to head back to Paris, if needed.

If absolutely necessary, though, Chariot 10 could load onto Galley 2 next turn, then on the following turn, we could unload Chariot 10 directly in York, having it able to move 1 turn later than York's Horse Archer can move, to help out at Nottingham.


XO Cognac Coast -> Horse

Lyons will need to build something other than the Galley, perhaps switching to a Courthouse, which we could whip and overflow into a Lighthouse. With the Galley almost complete, it's easy enough to get 2 Galleys at any time that we want them, but it seems that we don't quite need them yet.

London can do its thing as you have planned

Hamburg could probably whip its Axeman, as we only need to collect the Forest's Hammers into a Granary next turn

On T103, Cologne can 1-pop-whip its Catapult

Athens could slow-build a Lighthouse and then slow-build a Granary. Seeing as how we are stagnant, but make a decent amount of Hammers, getting the Lighthouse means gaining +1 Food per turn, while getting the Granary won't do anything until after our Cultural Borders have expanded and we can grow the City.

Ivory Coast can whip its Work Boat and work the Ivory, then it can plan to build another Work Boat

Gold Coast can wait to whip its Lighthouse until the turn when we complete the Gold Mine (T104), so we can switch the Plains square to the Gold square on T103, to trade our 1 Food from the Food bin and 1 Food from the Plains square for additional inputs of 1 Hammer and 2 Commerce

Jackpot can build Wealth and work the Stone

Maybe after the Lighthouse, Argent could start to slow-build a Catapult


If Galley 6 should just wait for both Spies 4 and 2

Worker 7 can probably move to the Iron, with us working the Iron on turns when we are building the Settler

I imagine that after the Winery, Worker 1 will start building Cottages that are shared between Paris and Lyons

In the future, I imagine that Worker 2 should build a Road on the Gold, then a Road on the Plains at 1 N of Gold Coast, then start building a Road on the Incense, at which point we need to decide between heading back to the other Gold Resource or building a Plantation

With Churchill's Axeman not on its Galley, Worker 4 can Mine and STOP


With a full-health Unit defending Rostov and 2 wounded Units nearby that might take the brunt of any attacks from hidden Units of Stalin's, we could potentially just move all of our remaining 8 Units toward Yaroslavl' by moving to the GH For at 3 S of Moscow (SE > E with the Axeman and E > SE with the mounted Units).

It could be 8 Units vs 4 Units with a whipped defender and that Archer moving into Yaroslavl', but if we head out now, there won't be time for Moscow's Spearmen to help defend Yaroslavl'.

As long as a Spearman doesn't get whipped in Yaroslavl', with the City's 20% Defensive Bonus, I think that 8 vs 4 should be enough to take the City. If a Spearman gets whipped, we might need to wait on capturing the City

I'm assuming that Axeman 3 could move 1 NE G For and might be able to capture the Worker, but if the Worker isn't on the Fur (say, it got disbanded or is on the Galley), we could move back 1 SW to 2 S of Nottingham, or if the Worker is guarded, we could also move back 1 SW G For... if the Worker is guarded, then on T103 it would make sense to move to the Sheep (not on T102) to force the Unit to either attack us or to walk into the Forest at 1 SE of York, which would be too late to help defend York

I'd probably have Galley 4 plan to pick up Cologne's Catapult at 1 NE of Hamburg, leaving Galley 1 and Galley 5 to chain Hamburg's Axeman to St. Pete's

I'm okay with another couple of turns of EPs on Hatty (we should do some test game checking to see how many EPs we'll need) and then possibly collecting Gold, since we'll get a 20% boost to researching Paper after we steal Civil Service

An expensive Civic such as Bureaucracy is relatively cheap for an Organized Leader, who gets a discount on the cost of Civics

Joao can get Monotheism this turn, since he started to research it
I was hoping Pete would play. :please:
For the next few days, I will not be able to devote as much time as I have been.

For the plans you suggested I agree with most.
Comments:

XO Cognac needs to "enable" the Horses.

Six (6) courthouses: Paris, London, XO Cognac, Orleans, Argent, Rostov.

For Lyons to build a courthouse, I would suggest it do so with overflows from whippings since it does not produce many hammers.
T102 Lyons could whip a Chariot.

Hamburg agree whip the Axeman overflow into Granary.

My build plan (for discussion purposes) for Argent is:
T103 Settler (to build New Yak, or is that Yetti) :D
T104 Archer (future MP and to allow growth)
T105 Settler
T106 2-pop whip Settler
T107 Courthouse
T108 1-pop whip Courthouse (1 of 6 for Forbidden Palace)

Ruby Bay 1-pop whips Granary and Works Gem Mine and Gem Hill. (Zero (0) food so no growth. Will the Granary be almost full?)
T103 starts Lighthouse and works Fish + Gem Mine.
 
Okay, I'll step in. Joe has certainly done yeoman's duty. I do have a full RL day tomorrow, but should be able to play a bit tomorrow night, if there is a PPP by then.

I will try to post some input in a few hours.
 
Looked at save and follow most of the plan already proposed. Not sure what "enabling" the horses means or what all the proposed settlers are needed for.

What is the plan for York, once we produce the HA and take Not?

Either Berlin or Moscow would make an excellent Heroic Epic city.
 
Sorry for the lengthy answers, but I'm trying to put together the reasoning for the suggestions that I'll later put forth in a PPP.


Looked at save and follow most of the plan already proposed. Not sure what "enabling" the horses means
When two Cities share a square, only one of those Cities can work that square. Of course, not every square that a City can work does get worked, which will always be true when Cities are smaller than Size 20. So, when two or more Cities share a square, only one City has that square as "visible" aka "not covered by fog" aka "enabled."

Jersey Joe has said that for the London-building-a-Courthouse-micro to work, he wants London to "steal" the Horse from York, and doing so will require going into London and clicking on the Horse square once to "enable" the Horse for London's use, then clicking again on the Horse square to actually have a citizen get assigned to working the Horse square.

Do you have preferred terminology? I think that we've been saying "steal the Horse from York" reasonably consistently.


what all the proposed settlers are needed for.
We were going to settle a City at 3 N of Athens, but Frederick already has a Settler there, and if he doesn't settle there, he'll settle within a square or two of there, meaning that we won't be settling that location but can probably capture the City from Frederick later instead.

The one from York will be to resettle Nottingham 1 SE of where Nottingham is located. So, the plan is to raze Nottingham and then settle a new City, to get a second Fish Resource.

We can only keep 3 Cities in England otherwise each City will cost us roughly an extra 8 Commerce each per turn due to the way that Colonial Maintenance works in BtS--1 City on an island doesn't cost any Colonial Maintenance. Having 2 Cities on an island costs a tiny bit, perhaps 1 Commerce per City. Having 3 Cities on an island costs more, perhaps somewhere between 2 to 3 Commerce per City, and that's about the sweet spot for an island with good locations to settle. Having 4 Cities on an island costs significantly more, about 6 to 8 Commerce per City, to the point that that 4th City is not worth keeping.

York is about equivalent to Nottingham as long as London is small, as York can borrow the Resources (Horse and Stone) that London isn't working. So, if we can only keep 3 Cities in England, trading York for Nottingham isn't really gaining us all that much.

But, if we resettle Nottingham, the City will be able to grow quickly and will be worth giving up York for. Plus, with all of the Forests of Nottingham (think Sherwood Forest and Robbin Hood, I suppose), we should be able to Chop out MoM in a resettled Nottingham.

Once we're ready to settle a replacement City for Nottingham, we can gift York to Joao and when we gift him York, we'll have a couple of Spies inside of the City, to try to steal Metal Casting from him.

As for Joao himself, he will switch Civics at Pleased, so once his current Anarchy cooldown (not switching Civics again for 5 turns since the last time that your Civic-switching Anarchy period ended), we should be able to bribe him to switch into both Hereditary Rule and Pacifism. Hereditary Rule will get him happier toward us, since it is his Favourite Civic and we are also running it. Pacifism should give him extra GPP in Lisbon if he hires any Specialists while running Caste System (Joao has already chosen to run Caste System). Theoretically, Joao getting Great People means helping us out, if he builds an Academy or settles a Great Person for us to capture later.


For the other Settlers...
we have one from Orleans and plan to get one from Argent, with 2 Settlers needed for Scandinavia
- One Settler for the Sweden region, at the "Resort Coming Soon!" sign's location on the map
- One Settler to resettled Vlad at 1 SW of where Vlad is located. This part will be a bit tricky, since, after we raze Nottingham, we'll have to Cease Fire with Churchill and we'll have to gift him another City elsewhere to keep him alive, and then we'll be able to re-declare war on Churchill, raze Vlad, and resettle Vlad to 1 SW of where it is located, to pick up another Deer and to share 2 of St. Pete's Fish Resources

So, we may need yet another Settler (a 4th one) to gift Churchill a junky City (maybe in the Tundra area to the north of Scandinavia or maybe we'll be able to capture a junky City from Stalin in the second war and just use that City to gift to Churchill).

Arguably, at some point, we could also settle a Spice Girls Island City, which would give us +1 Happiness and would give all of our Cities a 4th overseas domestic Trade Route. What that 4th overseas domestic Trade Route would mean is that these Cities would get a 2-Commerce Trade Route in place of their current 1-Commerce Trade Route:
Athens
Ivory Coast
Gold Coast
Jackpot

So, that would mean +4 Commerce, which would help to pay for the extra cost of settling on Spice Island.


Either Berlin or Moscow would make an excellent Heroic Epic city.
We can't capture a Barracks in a City that has 0 of our Culture in it--Barracks get auto-razed in Cities with none of our Culture in them. Barracks are a pre-requisite Building for being able to build the Heroic Epic.

There's also the consideration that a City that we would have to capture would be in City Revolt for a number of turns after we capture the City, and then we also have to count the turns needed to capture said City.

As such, we might be better off using a City that we already own, such as Athens, which has a lot of production and comes with 2 pre-settled Great Prophets for an extra 4 base Hammers per turn. That City is a bit far out of the way from the rest of the world relative to Moscow's location (other than for going after Germany with Athens-built troops), so we can try to capture Moscow within a reasonable time frame using siege warfare, to try to make Moscow our Heroic Epic City, and have Athens as a backup option.


In regards to the capture of Moscow, what we really need is a fast way to get Catapults to the front lines.

I'm thinking that the Settler for Vlad can be delayed, meaning that one of Argent or Orleans can delay building a Settler. Since Argent is closer to the front lines and since Orleans has already started on its Settler, logically, Argent can delay building its Settler and could instead be used to whip out a couple of Catapults.

Originally, we were thinking that putting a Road on the GH Iron at 1 SE of Argent would be bad, as then we'd have multiple Iron Resources connected and an AI might Demand an Iron from us. Now, I'm thinking "who cares?" We're only looking to get Joao to Friendly, and later possibly Churchill to Friendly via City Liberating and recapturing, but we could equally do the same with Joao. While we don't want to anger any of the other AIs if we don't have to, saying "no" when someone asks for an extra copy of our Iron isn't a big deal. If we build a Road on the GH Iron at 1 SE of Argent, Catapults build in Argent could get on a Galley within 2 turns of being built and then get Galley-chained into St. Pete's.

We'd only need 2 Galleys in the chain, since we get 2 turns' worth of movement with Galleys, due to being able to load Units, then move Galleys on the first turn, then on the second turn, move Galleys and only then unload Units.


If we capture Yaroslavl', we can aim to Cease Fire with Stalin, but before we Cease Fire, we could try to pick off high-chance wins (95%+), such as our Chariot picking off an Axeman in the field, our Horse Archer picking off an Archer in the field, or our Woodsman III Unit (or even our Woodsman II Unit) picking off a Spearman in the field.


After that, we'd try to get siege Units into St. Pete's with all due haste via Galley-chaining, declare war on Stalin again after a few turns' time, defend our captured Russian Cities, and push in toward Moscow from 2 or 3 sides (St. Pete's + Rostov and possibly + Yaroslavl' if we capture it).


On the England front, we're going to have Workers 5 and 6 complete a Road at 1 NE of York. Doing so allows our York-built Horse Archer to move 4 squares from York to Nottingham, at which point the rest of our army can join our Horse Archer and we can do our best to raze Nottingham before Churchill whips too many Units there.

We have to be wary of Churchill loading troops onto his Galley and him going after Ruby Bay's Worker.

With any luck, 1 Horse Archer, 2 Axemen, and 3 Chariots will be sufficient forces to take down Nottingham, but it might be tight if Churchill keeps whipping Military Units. I'll try to bring in 1 more full-health Chariot from Paris, to give us an option of delaying the attack by 1 turn but having 1 more Unit, perhaps also giving time for Churchill to send Units away on a Galley.


In our core Cities, it would be very nice to soon get them up to working 10 Cottages for Paris.

To make that happen, we'll probably want to 2-pop-whip a Worker out of Lyons, now that we've delayed the need for our southern army.

At some point, we're presumably going to want to capture Hatty's capital, complete with the Apostolic Palace and the Pyramids, so that we'd eventually run Representation and could be a voting candidate for an Apostolic Palace Victory, but for now, our core-area Cities are going to be tied up building Workers, Courthouses, and growing into working Cottages.

It will take 30 turns of working a Cottage to get it into a useful status (a Village that gets +1 Commerce via Printing Press).

An 11th Cottage would come from later turning the G Riv Farm at 1 SW of Paris into a Cottage (but a Farm is more useful first to actually help with growing Paris), and once we unlock Oxford University, we can put 3 Chops into it to unlock 3 more Cottageable squares, giving Paris 14 Cottages.


Meanwhile, Orleans, in addition to building a Settler, is going to have to start spreading Christianity around, so that we can get some GPP from Pacifism during our Golden Ages.


Our Workers in England are also going to be very busy, with every Worker move counting, getting a 2nd Gems Mine up, getting Roads for the York Horse Archer to be able to arrive at the gates of Nottingham within the span of 1 turn, Chopping a Courthouse in London, Chopping a Settler and a Spy in York, and pre-Chopping for MoM around the resettled Nottingham area.


In the south, we have 2 Spies coming from Portugal that will go to 2 of Hatty's Stone Resources, and we'll need Ivory Coast to balance out the production of Work Boats (2 for itself and 1 for Gold Coast) and the production of a 3rd Spy so that we can use 3 Spies to Sabotage (aka Pillage with a Spy) all 3 of Hatty's Stone Resources (and get another Spy for her 4th Stone Resource if our exploring Chariot 9 in Africa reveals a 4th Stone Resource). By Sabotaging all of Hatty's Stone Resources, all of her trades to other AIs where she trades a Stone Resource to get another Resource will be cancelled, such as Hatty's trade of Stone to Mehmed for Mehmed's Marble. That situation should leave Mehmed's Marble available for us to get in trade.


We also need to estimate how many EPs to collect against Hatty so that we can steal Civil Service, Literature, and possibly Music from her. We don't necessarily have to take Music, but having Music could mean building Culture as a build item in Cities to quickly expand the Cultural Borders of captured Cities, such as St. Pete's, where most of our Food Resources are in our big fat cross but aren't adjacent to our City. I'll have to set aside some testing time for the task of figuring out just how many EPs we will need against Hatty, but for now, we can at least put another turn of 100% Espionage onto Hatty.


For the next few days, I will not be able to devote as much time as I have been.
You've done a great job, so thanks for that! I'll try to put together a PPP and would still appreciate any feedback on it.


Six (6) courthouses: Paris, London, XO Cognac, Orleans, Argent, Rostov.
Lyons might end up being a replacement for Orleans, as Orleans needs to complete its Settler and also spam Missionaries in order to make us able to effectively generate Great People while under Pacifism during our Golden Ages.


For Lyons to build a courthouse, I would suggest it do so with overflows from whippings since it does not produce many hammers.
T102 Lyons could whip a Chariot.
I'm not sure why we couldn't instead 2-pop-whip a Courthouse and overflow into the almost-completed Chariot. 2-pop-whipping is generally better than 1-pop-whipping.

But, first, I think that we will want to 2-pop-whip a Worker, to get some Cottage-building turns in. There are a lot of Cottages to erect. If it takes us until T130 to erect all of our Cottages, then they'll be completed too late to be effective.


My build plan (for discussion purposes) for Argent is:
T103 Settler (to build New Yak, or is that Yetti) :D
T104 Archer (future MP and to allow growth)
T105 Settler
T106 2-pop whip Settler
T107 Courthouse
T108 1-pop whip Courthouse (1 of 6 for Forbidden Palace)
I'm afraid that Catapults are going to have to come at a higher priority than all of that. We really don't have the resources for Military Police Units in most of our Cities. To put things into perspective, we're the SGOTM team with the lowest Power right now, so, except for in Paris, most of our troops should be on the front lines as much as possible.

Orleans' Settler, since Frederick has trumped us into settling to the north of Athens, can be used in Scandinavia to replace the razed Yakutsk, freeing up Argent to get us some desperately-needed Catapults.



Ruby Bay 1-pop whips Granary and Works Gem Mine and Gem Hill. (Zero (0) food so no growth. Will the Granary be almost full?)
How Granaries work is as follows:
On the turn after the Granary exists (so the turn after you complete the Granary), the Granary is empty of Food. On the turn after the Granary exists, you will put whatever Food you earn on that turn into the City's Food box, as normal, but you will also put a duplicate amount of the Food that you just put into the City's Food box into the Granary.

As an example:
T102 Whip a Granary
T103 This turn is the turn after the Granary has been completed, so the Granary has 0 Food inside of it
T103 Work a Fish at Size 1 for 2 + 5 - 2 = +5 Food
T104 The Granary has 5 Food inside of it

At any time where we grow City Sizes, if the Granary already exists, we first put duplicate Food in both the City's Food box and the City's Granary. Then, if the Food in the Food box exceeds the amount of Food needed to grow to the next City Size, the Food in the Food box, minus the Food required to grow, will carry over. So, if we're at Size 1, we have 21 Food in our Food box, and we have just whipped our Granary, if we earn +1 Food by working a Gems square, we'll be at 22 / 22 Food. 1 Food will have gone into the Food box and 0 Food will have gone into the Granary. We'll then be at Size 2 with 0 Food in the Food box. That's the scenario that you just described, so it doesn't help us to whip the Granary now.

In a different scenario, let's say that we're at Size 3 with 7 Food in our Food box and we whip our Granary. Let's say that we make 4 Food by working a Fish and a Gems square at Size 2. On the next turn, we'll have 7 + 4 = 11 Food in our Food box and our Granary will still be empty. On the following turn, we'll have 11 + 4 = 15 Food in our Food box and we'll have 0 + 4 = 4 Food in our Granary.

Food stored in the Granary gets added to our Food box whenever we grow a City Size. But, you first have to have a turn where our City has the Granary completed in its list of Buildings before the Granary can get any Food going into it.

The traditional heuristic is to whip a Granary when the Food box is half full. Exact cases of whipping just before or after that turn can be better slightly if you spend the time to work out the math. But, generally, whipping a Granary when the City is about to grow is usually the worst time to whip a Granary.


Our Warrior 1 could probably Pillage the ruins of Yakutsk, to give the Forest a chance to grow.


After we Cease Fire with Stalin, we may want to see if we can bribe Mehmed to stop the war with Stalin, so that Stalin stops producing Military Units. While it's nice to get help from Mehmed's troops when we're at war with Stalin ourselves and thus at a time when Stalin will already be building Military Units, it will be nice to give Stalin a "cooldown" period where he builds peaceful build items while we get our Catapults into position.


Churchill's Fur has just finished being Camped, so Churchill has definitely got his Worker on his Fur at Nottingham. What's not certain is whether that Worker will be defended or whether it will be ripe to be stolen by our Axeman 3 Woodsman II Unit.


I'm not sure where we'd put our National Epic. Argent might be a decent choice, with a surplus of this much Food:
City Centre 2
Fish 6
Deer 4
Deer 4
Whale 3
Whale 3
5 population points - 10
2 + 6 + 4 + 4 + 3 + 3 - 10 = 12 surplus Food, for 6 Specialists at City Size 11

St. Pete's might also be a very strong choice, after we capture Moscow, with the option of using:
City Centre 2
Fish 6
Fish 6
Fish 6
Wheat 6
4 population points - 8
2 + 6 + 6 + 6 + 6 - 8 = 18 surplus Food, for 9 Specialists at City Size 13


We haven't really even talked about Moai Statues. Argent might be a good spot in which to complete it, as we have 3 seafood Resources there. But, it's also a bit out of the way in terms of troop production.

Athens would probably make a decent choice, too, with 3 seafood Resources of its own, and being on the mainland, but lacking the Forests that Argent could use to Chop it. The City is also about equally far away in terms of troop production.

I don't see us owning a better City that's closer to the front lines (St. Pete's looks to be the clear winner for the National Epic) for Moai, so it'll likely get built in one of Athens or Argent.

Whichever City location we choose for Moai, if we plan to build it, it will help for us to have some other Cities partially build it for Failure Gold. Of course, we'd have to complete the National Wonder before we saw a return on our Hammer investment, so in general, putting Hammers into Courthouses is probably a wiser investment in the short term, as they pay off both in terms of reduced Maintenance Costs and in terms of free EPs for stealing techs from Hatty.


The Heroic Epic and the National Epic are less easily used for Failure Gold, since they require a Barracks and a Library to be able to build them, respectively. Moai doesn't have a pre-requisite Building, just a pre-requisite of being on the coast, and we have many coastal Cities, which is why Moai will be potentially quite useful for Failure Gold.
 
Looked at save and follow most of the plan already proposed. Not sure what "enabling" the horses means or what all the proposed settlers are needed for.

What is the plan for York, once we produce the HA and take Not?

Either Berlin or Moscow would make an excellent Heroic Epic city.
CP, you probably know what enable is and I do not know the proper way to refer to the act. By enable I mean change which city gets to use that tile. If you look at the Jackpot city screen you will see that the Horses and the Stone are brightly lite. If you look at the XO Cognac city screen, the horses and stone are a dark shade. If you left click on the Horses they we turn bright which is what I mean by "enable". The horses can now be worked by XO Cognac. I use it as a reminder to myself of something to check. If you look at the past few PPPs you will see by Ruby Bay every turn I left a note to check the forests were enabled.

On T102 York whipped the HA; T103 York builds a Settler; T104 York switches building a Spy until it can get a forest chopped into the Settler.
The Plan is to Raze Nottingham when we capture it and rebuild it on a better spot.

The Settler coming out of Argent will either build a city 1 W of razed Yakutsk or SW of Vlad when we capture Vlad from Churchill and raze it.

Likewise, the Settler coming out of Orleans will either build a city 1 W of razed Yakutsk or SW of Vlad when we capture Vlad from Churchill and raze it. Originally, this settler was going to settle NW of Athens on the land bridge, but it looks like Frederick is going to settler there.
 
On T102 York whipped the HA; T103 York builds a Settler; T104 York switches building a Spy until it can get a forest chopped into the Settler.
If we bring in Chariot 10 from Paris to York, Chariot 10 can join the fight 1 turn after the York-built Horse Archer can attack Nottingham. Waiting 1 turn to get +1 Chariot might not be worth it.

But, York has 22 overflow Hammers and makes 4 Hammers per turn, meaning 26 overflow Hammers. As long as London doesn't need both of the Horse and Stone on T103, York could build a Chariot right after the Horse Archer, giving us +2 Chariots going into the fight, which could very well be worth waiting for.

I make this proposal because we received a free Forest at York which we really should Chop before we gift away York. 2 Forests going into a Settler makes it a 1-pop-whipping action just as easily as does 1 Chop and 26 overflow Hammers going into it.

We'd have to wait a bit longer to get our Settler, since we'd have to wait for the 2 Workers to complete 3 Chops instead of 2 Chops, but getting our Settler sooner won't help if we fail to capture and raze Nottingham.


With a Woodsman II Axeman at play, and with Churchill's Camp just appearing on the map to ascertain the location of his Worker, we can do a lot to mess with the mind of Churchill. For example, if Churchill's Worker is defended, we can block the path of that Unit getting to Nottingham.

If Churchill's Worker is not defended, we can capture it, then abandon it to be captured on the following turn by moving 2 squares away from the Worker via Forests. An AI will disband a Worker that it captures if we have a Unit within range of attacking back. But, a Woodsman II Unit that is 2 squares away will not appear to be within range, so since the Worker would be in the AI's Cultural Borders, Churchill would keep the Worker, thinking that we couldn't counter-attack it. Then, we could move in to block the capturing Unit from returning to Nottingham while adding +2 Chariots to the fight.

I'd feel much safer about the attack with a couple of extra Units of ours going it; if we fail to capture the City by only a wounded City Defender, we'll face more whipped Hills-defending troops and it will probably take us another 6 to 8 turns of healing and building new troops before we're ready to take Nottingham.
 
Dhoom thanks for the info on Granaries (I was thinking they worked the same way when built as in civ3).
Revised Argent build schedule:
T103 Catapult; T104 1 pop whip Catapult into Catapult;
T105 2-pop whip Catapult; T106 Courthouse to capture overflow;
T107 switch to Catapult; T108 2-pop whip Catapult;
T109 1-pop whip Catapult;
T110-T111 finish Courthouse
 
Sorry for the lengthy answers, but I'm trying to put together the reasoning for the suggestions that I'll later put forth in a PPP. Understood. You've explained a great deal, which is appreciated.

Do you have preferred terminology? I think that we've been saying "steal the Horse from York" reasonably consistently. Yes, that phrase I'm familiar with.

The one from York will be to resettle Nottingham 1 SE of where Nottingham is located. So, the plan is to raze Nottingham and then settle a new City, to get a second Fish Resource. I had missed that.

Once we're ready to settle a replacement City for Nottingham, we can gift York to Joao and when we gift him York, we'll have a couple of Spies inside of the City, to try to steal Metal Casting from him. Isn't that pretty speculative. How likely will Joao have something we will want to steal at that point?

For the other Settlers...
What about cats before settlers? Like to take Moscow soon.

We can't capture a Barracks in a City that has 0 of our Culture in it--Barracks get auto-razed in Cities with none of our Culture in them. Barracks are a pre-requisite Building for being able to build the Heroic Epic. We can chop/whip the barracks into the HE.

As such, we might be better off using a City that we already own, such as Athens, which has a lot of production and comes with 2 pre-settled Great Prophets for an extra 4 base Hammers per turn. That City is a bit far out of the way from the rest of the world relative to Moscow's location (other than for going after Germany with Athens-built troops), so we can try to capture Moscow within a reasonable time frame using siege warfare, to try to make Moscow our Heroic Epic City, and have Athens as a backup option. Makes sense. Any thoughts on attacking the barb city?

In regards to the capture of Moscow, what we really need is a fast way to get Catapults to the front lines.

I'm thinking that the Settler for Vlad can be delayed, meaning that one of Argent or Orleans can delay building a Settler. Since Argent is closer to the front lines and since Orleans has already started on its Settler, logically, Argent can delay building its Settler and could instead be used to whip out a couple of Catapults. Concur.


If we capture Yaroslavl', we can aim to Cease Fire with Stalin, but before we Cease Fire, we could try to pick off high-chance wins (95%+), such as our Chariot picking off an Axeman in the field, our Horse Archer picking off an Archer in the field, or our Woodsman III Unit (or even our Woodsman II Unit) picking off a Spearman in the field or stealing a worker.


After that, we'd try to get siege Units into St. Pete's with all due haste via Galley-chaining, declare war on Stalin again after a few turns' time, defend our captured Russian Cities, and push in toward Moscow from 2 or 3 sides (St. Pete's + Rostov and possibly + Yaroslavl' if we capture it). Concur.


On the England front, Understand the England plan.

In our core Cities, it would be very nice to soon get them up to working 10 Cottages for Paris. Seems late in the game to be building cottages. Not sure those worker turns wouldn't be better spent chopping and roading.

An 11th Cottage would come from later turning the G Riv Farm at 1 SW of Paris into a Cottage (but a Farm is more useful first to actually help with growing Paris), and once we unlock Oxford University, we can put 3 Chops into it to unlock 3 more Cottageable squares, giving Paris 14 Cottages. To get to Oxford will cost many hammers that could be used to produce units. Wondering if, by the time we get it built, the game will have passed us by.

Our Warrior 1 could probably Pillage the ruins of Yakutsk, to give the Forest a chance to grow.
Now that's attending to detail.
 
We can chop/whip the barracks into the HE.
I'm fine with doing so. I'd probably aim to put Chops into the Wonder, since it's costly to whip a Wonder.

It's arguably possibly bad play to raze and resettle AI Cities. But, we have our reasons, with the thinking that there are still enough game turns to justify resettling for extra Food Resources in Cities that had no infrastructure.

Yakutsk itself was all right as a City and it might have been a decent City to keep, but it would have been kept a time when it would have been a bit of a drag on our economy, and it might have meant facing more of Stalin's stacks (which we were not prepared to do), so I don't regret the decision to raze it.


Isn't that pretty speculative. How likely will Joao have something we will want to steal at that point?
If we can't get Joao up to Friendly status to trade us Metal Casting, then 100% likely. We already know that Joao learned Metal Casting. It's just a matter of getting the tech from him.

F4 TECHS screen
Spoiler :
e7004f05f9.jpg


Possible ways of getting a monopoly tech from Joao (a tech that only Joao knows) include:
1. Getting him to be Friendly toward us
2. Stealing the technology using Spies and Espionage Points
3. Going to war with him and winning a large number of battles while losing very few battles

Option 3 is relatively infeasible given the layout of Joao's empire. Option 1 is going to require him to like us a bit more--Christianity and Hereditary Rule will help, but we're unlikely to get him to be Friendly toward us in the short term; we'll probably have to wait for these positive Diplo modifiers to accumulate over time.

If he asks us to do something that we won't want to do "Stop trading with Hatty," which we would absolutely refuse to do, it could take even longer to get him up to being Friendly toward us, as we'd anger him slightly by having to turn down such an unreasonable request.

Here are the techs that we know that the AIs are currently researching, from using our Espionage Points and looking at the Scoreboard at the AIs on whom we have spent a decent amount of EPs.
Spoiler :
9c7f8a11d1.jpg



Any thoughts on attacking the barb city?
It's not Istanbul, as Istanbul is controlled by the Ottomans, as per the F9 TOP 5 CITIES / WONDERS screen.

I don't recall reading anything about a Barb City in our set of goals, so I wouldn't even worry about it and I don't really feel like speculating about it. I certainly wouldn't advocate diverting our important Units to "check it out." I'm sure that we'll figure what it is all about as time passes in the game, but we might not figure out why it is there until the game is over.


Seems late in the game to be building cottages. Not sure those worker turns wouldn't be better spent chopping and roading.
That's kind of our main strategy, so it's a bit late to change things now. Like it or not, we're committed to going for Bureaucracy + Oxford University + an Academy + Cottages in a large-sized Paris.

30 turns to get Cottages matured to Villages is all that we need; how we get those Cottages built and worked efficiently is one of the efficiency problems to figure out. A good start will be a whipping a new Worker in Lyons.


To get to Oxford will cost many hammers that could be used to produce units. Wondering if, by the time we get it built, the game will have passed us by.
I don't think that we'll get to Railroad anytime soon without Oxford. The game won't end until after we have learned Railroad. Had we, say, gone for early Engineering and then focused on the Guilds -> Chemistry path with Great Scientist Lightbulbs on Chemistry, we could have skipped the early Academy, REXed or conquered faster, built Workshops, and used those Workshops by building Wealth everywhere to power our way through the techs. But, we chose a Bureaucratic Cottage capital instead.


With any luck, Hatty or Joao will help us with teching Machinery, Feudalism, and Guilds, and then the rest will be up to us:
Paper, Education, and Gunpowder
After learning those techs, we will need to know Metal Casting + Machinery (which is one of the reasons why we want to steal Metal Casting from Joao; the other reason is to get Metal Casting into Hatty's hands so that she might go after Machinery if Joao doesn't)
then
Printing Press, Engineering, Chemistry, Steel, Feudalism, Guilds, Banking, Replaceable Parts, Steam Power, and Railroad
Liberalism will help us to get one of those techs, and Liberalism is one of the benefits of going down the Paper -> Education line, in that we can recoup our invested Flasks in Education and Liberalism if we are able to delay learning Liberalism to earn us one of the more expensive techs (Steam Power or Railroad)

The main optional techs on this line are:
Civil Service (which we wasted 1 turn of Flasks on but otherwise will get for around 200 EPs from Hatty)
Education (which unlocks Liberalism to help pay for itself)

What we're really too late for is a Workshop-based empire. The nice part about a Bureaucracy approach is that we only need to focus our Workers in a small area, rather than empire-wide.

The remainder becomes a careful balance between whipping enough but not too much, growing our Cities enough to be able to hire a decent amount of Specialists, and then chaining Golden Ages while using tactics such as Failure Gold to help keep our Science Rate high.



EDIT: I think that we'll just have to slow-build a Spy in Ivory Coast for 3 turns, 1-pop-whip it, and then slow-build the rest of the Work Boat while working the Ivory for another 3 turns. Whipping the Work Boat and then waiting to whip the Spy will take too long to get our 3rd Spy at Hatty--well, we won't necessarily have to have Marble immediately, but there's a risk of our other Spies auto-dying the longer that they have to wait for this Spy to exist, so let's just get our Spy first.
 
Suggested PPP
Diplo Policy:
Spoiler :
Switch Religions? No
Stop trading with another AI? No
Give an AI a Strategic Resource? No
Give an AI a Happiness or a Healthiness Resource? Yes
Requests for two-sided trades or Open Borders should be refused.
Requests for Peace should be refused.
Give an AI a tech? No to Churchill, no to Frederick, no to Stalin. No for Horseback Riding (except give it to Joao if Joao asks for it). No for Monarchy. Yes to anyone else for any other tech.
Join a war? No
Trade a tech for a tech and/or Gold? No--let's discuss tech trades and put them in a PPP

Reasons for stopping:
An AI declares war on us.
We meet a new AI.
One of our Cities is threatened.
Something in the plan sounds wrong.



T102, 325 BC
Trade:
Gift Monotheism to Joao (to get him to research something else)

Ask Mehmed to attack Moscow

EDIT: Trade:
10 Gold from Frederick <-> Code of Laws

EDIT: Trade:
Gift Code of Laws to Mehmed


Paris switches 2 Spies to 2 G For squares
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, Copper, Cottage, G For, and G For

XO Cognac steals Horse
XO Cognac switches Coast -> Horse
XO Coganc works: Fish, Cow, and Horse

Lyons builds Worker

London steals Horse from York
London switches Fur -> Horse
Spoiler :
JJ originally suggested that London work the Horse on a later turn, but let's work it now when York is still at Size 2

London works: Fish, Horse, and 2 Sci (we must keep our Scientists hired in order to get our Great Person soon!)

York works: Fish and Stone

Argent builds Catapult

Hamburg switches to building Axeman
Hamburg 1-pop-whips Axeman

Athens builds Lighthouse

Ivory Coast builds Spy (and does not whip)

Gold Coast builds Work Boat (I was hoping to have Ivory Coast build it, but we might as well make it here, since Ivory Coast will also need to build a Spy)

Jackpot builds Wealth (scroll down in the list of build items--it is the bottom-left-most build item)
Jackpot switches Fish -> Stone
Jackpot works: Stone

Worker 4 (at 1 N of Ruby Bay) builds Mine on Gems and STOPS


Egyptian core Cities area:
Chariot 9 (1 N of Memphis) can move 1 E Des Road > 1 NE DesH Road, which should reveal Hatty's 4th City, base on its Cultural Borders (revealing the City will expose the hidden squares around of it next turn, due to Espionage) > 1 SE PH Road (if it really is a Road) > head southward toward the PH Jungle at 3 S of Memphis--let's check out that path through the Desert


England Theatre:
Axe 3 (2 S of Nottingham) moves 1 NE G For (1 SE of Nottingham) > if the Worker on Nottingham's Fur is not escorted, steal it. If the Worker is escorted, retreat back 1 SW to 2 S of Nottingham

The Axeman and three Chariots at 1 SE of Ruby Bay patiently wait there


Russian Theatre:
Our remaining 8 Units in our primary attack stack:
Axe 5 Woody III (1 NE + 1 N of Rostov) moves 1 SE G For > 1 E GH For Road (3 S of Moscow)
The three Horse Archers and the four Chariots (1 NE + 1 N of Rostov) move individually (I suggest that we don't group the Units together in case of a misclick messing up most of our stack instead of just messing up one Unit) to 1 E G Riv Road > 1 SE GH For Road (3 S of Moscow)

Our land Units in St. Pete's stay in place


Each of Galley 4, Galley 1, and Galley 5 sail 2 W toward Hamburg:
Galley 4 (3 N of Munich) moves 2 W
Galley 5 (2 W of St. Pete's) moves 2 W
Galley 1 (in St. Pete's) moves 2 W

Galley 3 (3 S of Argent) move 1 NW to Argent's Fish and Skip its turn there (we can get a Catapult to load 1 turn faster this way during the time that there isn't a Road on the GH Iron)

Work Boat 6 (in Hamburg) moves 2 W to Hamburg's Fish

Warrior 1 moves 1 W to GH Ruins


Paris area:
HA 9 stays in Lyons for a turn
Chariot 10 stays in Paris for a turn
Chariot 13 stays in Orleans for a turn

The Spies inside of Jackpot do not move at all; their entire purpose is to sit there patiently in Jackpot and do nothing else but wait inside of Jackpot (I believe that they are Fortified inside of Jackpot, anyway)


Turn 103

York completes HA -> builds Chariot

Ask Mehmed to attack Moscow


XO Cognac steals Stone
XO Cognac works: Fish, Cow, Horse, and Stone

Orleans 1-pop-whips Christian Missionary
Orleans works: Fish, Cow, and Iron

Lyons 2-pop-whips Worker
Lyons works: Fish, Fur, and Wine

Argent 1-pop-whips Catapult

Work Boat on the Fish shared with Cologne and Hamburg nets the Fish
Cologne 1-pop-whips Catapult
Cologne works: Sheep and 1 NE + 1 N Fish (the one shared with Hamburg)

Ruby Bay works: Fish, 1 E Gems Mine, and a G Riv

Gold Coast switches Plains -> PH Riv Gold
Gold Coast works: P Riv and PH Riv Gold (will lose 1 Food while staying at Size 2)

Jackpot works: Fish

Worker 3 (at 1 NE + 1 E of Argent) moves 1 E TunH Silver For (I'm thinking that we Chop the Resort City's Forest)
Worker 4 (at 1 N of Ruby Bay) doesn't do anything yet (we may have to run if Churchill puts Units on his Galley, for example)
Worker 5 (at 1 SE of Ruby Bay) moves 1 SW to 1 NE of York (2 S of Ruby Bay) and builds a Road
Worker 6 (at 1 SE of Ruby Bay) moves 1 SW to 1 NE of York (2 S of Ruby Bay) and builds a Road
Worker 7 (at 2 S of Argent) moves 1 NE GH Iron (to build a Road on the Iron square)
Worker 8 (at 1 NE of Cologne) checks that Hamburg has "stolen" the G For that he standing on and then finishes the Chop into Hamburg's Granary


Joao area:
Spy 4 (1 E of Oporto) moves 1 SE onto Galley 6
Galley 6 stays in place to wait for Spy 2 to board next turn
Spy 2 (1 S of Oporto) moves 1 NE PH For (1 E of Oporto)


Paris area:
HA 9 (in Lyons) moves into Paris and Skips its turn
Chariot 10 (in Paris) moves onto Galley 2: move 1 NW G For Road (1 NE of the Fur) > 1 NW G Riv (1 E of Jackpot) > 1 N Galley 2
Galley 2 (with Spy 003 and Chariot 10 aboard) sails 2 NW toward York (to 1 S of York)


Russian Theatre:
EDIT: Horse Archer 4 (1 N of Rostov) can Promote to Combat II (although let's wait to move him until the next turnset)

With our stack of 8 troops at 3 S of Moscow, we'll face off against Yaroslavl'
If Yaroslavl' has a Spearman, maybe just stop play and we can discuss whether to attack or not
If there isn't a Spearman and there are 4 or less troops, we should be able to capture the City, due to it being on flat land with only a 20% Cultural Defensive bonus

Tips:
- This point should be obvious, but mounted Units can attack Yaroslavl' this turn by moving 1 SE P Road > 1 NE Yaroslavl', while our Axeman could attack Yaroslavl' this turn by moving 1 E G For > 1 E Yaroslavl'
- Ideally, we'll get a Horse Archer to attack an Archer. To do so, we'll probably need HA 8 (Combat I + Shock) and HA 10 (Combat I + Shock) attacking any Melee Units and then hopefully we'll go up against an Archer with our remaining Horse Archer. We may even save HA 10 to attack the Archer with the thinking that HA 8 (Combat I + Shock) and HA 11 (no Promo) can wound the Melee Units a bit and then HA 10 might get the Archer to come up as the defender due to a Melee Unit not wanting to face off against the Shock Promotion
- If we can't get the Archer to come up against our last Horse Archer, try to find a way to get a fight of our Horse Archer against that Archer, such as seeing what comes up as the defender against our Chariots and our Axeman
- If we can get an Axeman to defend against a Chariot, that's a great battle to fight with a Chariot; be careful that taking Shock might make a different Unit the top defender
- Our Woodsman III Unit is our primary healer, so it's preferable but not mandatory to reserve him for a fight that we're pretty certain to win (85% or higher odds)--if he has to die just to ensure that we capture the City, though, then he can die. That said, if we can get him to face off against a Swordsman defender, then that'll be a good fight for him to perform, although we might first attack a Swordsman with a Combat I + Shock Horse Archer, as our Horse Archer could retreat if it was losing the fight

If we capture Yaroslavl', that's probably a good time to pause the game, save the game, and stop play, so that we can decide whether to Cease Fire and how to go about doing it.

Also, I'd suggest holding off on doing anything at England other than the listed Worker actions for Workers 5 and 6; it's hard to predict what Churchill might do (load Units into his Galley, come after our Woodsman II Unit, or whip troops), so let's just react to what he does instead of trying to predict what he might do. If we do capture a Worker in England, please also hold off on doing anything with it.

Actually, we should probably just hold off on moving any of our other Units; we'll need to think how best to shuttle our Catapults to St. Pete's, and we'll need to make other decisions, such as whether Chariot 13 (in Orleans) might be needed as a Military Police Unit inside of Paris.

End of PPP




I'm starting to wonder about our first Golden Age... should we be aiming to get one ASAP, even before MoM, in order to save 1 turn of Anarchy on Bureaucracy? 1 turn of Anarchy is probably worth about missing out on 2 turns of Golden Age from not having MoM. Is there any feasible way that we'd have 3 Cities which could generate Great People during a Golden Age?

For example, let's say that we slipped into Caste System in order to hire Specialists... then, St. Pete's could hire enough Artists to only shrink the City for 1 turn by expanding its Cultural Borders over top of its Fish Resources, regardless of when we actually capture Moscow. Maybe we could aim to Galley-chain a Missionary to St. Pete's. I'm not sure that we can get our London Great Person soon enough, but it's a thought.

Maybe London and XO Cognac would also be used to try to get a Great Person each?

For example, if XO Cognac went for a 100% Great Merchant, while 2 other Cities went for a mix of either a Great Scientist or something else (some Great Prophet GPP in London and some Great Artist GPP in St. Pete's), then we'd end up with:
1 Great Merchant
2 other non-Great-Merchant Great People

With any luck, we'd get at least 1 Great Scientist and could Lightbulb Education, leaving us with a Great Merchant and a random type of non-Great-Merchant Great Person to launch Golden Age #2, probably after having built MoM.

If we instead got a Great Prophet and a Great Artist from London and St. Pete's, we could use the Great Merchant in a Trade Mission to help us with getting the Gold needed to self-tech Education, while still having 2 Great People of different types for Golden Age #2.

I haven't looked at the feasibility of this idea with the real game in front of me. However, even if we can't finish generating some of our Great People until after the Golden Age, it could be a decent way to make use of our London Great Person while still being able to start another Golden Age after having MoM.
 
"I don't think that we'll get to Railroad anytime soon without Oxford. The game won't end until after we have learned Railroad. Had we, say, gone for early Engineering and then focused on the Guilds -> Chemistry path with Great Scientist Lightbulbs on Chemistry, we could have skipped the early Academy, REXed or conquered faster, built Workshops, and used those Workshops by building Wealth everywhere to power our way through the techs. But, we chose a Bureaucratic Cottage capital instead." Guess that choice was made while I was out of country. Let's make it work. I'll try to play in about 11 hours.
 
I agree with the PPP.

Note: Horse Archer 4 (1 N of Rostov) earned a promotion for killing the Archer. I would suggest Combat II.
 
Another thought is that Frederick isn't anyone's Worst Enemy.

So, we could sell him Code of Laws without angering another AI. If he doesn't immediately switch into Caste System, we could gift/sell him Philosophy on the following turn, to see if he might then switch into Caste System and Pacifism, or at least Pacifism.

Since he hasn't generated any Great People and since we're delaying capturing his Cities, this approach might let him finally generate a Great Person for our eventual usage.


It might also be worth it to give Code of Laws to Mehmed. Only Darius treats Mehmed as a Worst Enemy, and we've already maxed out our "You Traded With Our Worst Enemies" penalty with Darius, so that penalty can't get any worse.

The more AIs whose land we need to conquer (Frederick and Mehmed are certainly on that list) who get access to Caste System and possibly also access to Pacifism if we can get those AIs Philosophy before they decide to switch Civics, the greater the chance that we'll be able to capture an Academy or settled Great People.

Since we're going to try to build MoM, I no longer care if we reduce Mehmed's chances of trying to build MoM for us.


I'd also suggest that if Joao asks us for Horseback Riding, we give it to him, as that's just free positive Diplo for the cost of him building maybe 2 Horse Archers (which will be easier to kill with War Elephants later than will be Longbowmen).

With some luck, we'll be able to get Joao to be Friendly toward us before we're ready to give him York, since once we give him York, he may start to say that our Close Borders are Sparking Tensions, thereby giving us a bit of negative Diplo. If Joao is not Friendly toward us before we are ready to give him York, we'll just steal Metal Casting after we give him York. On the odd chance that he gets Friendly toward us, Spies still could be of use, say, to perform a Steal Treasury Espionage Mission.
 
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