[BTS] SGOTM 26 - The Indecisive

[Folket]

I do not understand you Galley move. It seems like it would only work with Engineering.

At the moment I'm favouring Taj Mahal as we do not have any resources that we can improve with Calendar.

Music is a good tech that would give us an artist for a golden age. That would allow us to generate 2 GM and 1 GS for an Education rush. The more I think about it the better it sounds. Getting bureaucracy and Oxford is probably much better than meeting AIs.

New tech path.

Music, Currency, Civil Service Paper, Education.

Or should it be Music, Philosophy, Civil Service, Paper Education?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Much to consider. I will get back to you ASAP.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Using Hammers = (Sabotage Production / City Revolt) * (650/6) I can see that Peter has 313 hammers in Moscow. Probably building the Pyramids. That's great intel. If he's building the GLib, instead of the mids, then we are out of luck there, so probably shouldn't complete any more chops of Bib forests until you see more than 350 hammers in Moscow. How much cheaper are wonders for AIs on Emperor? Don't know. It seems like we should decide to gamble for Pyramid or just start hanging gardens. Gamble. This is why we settled IT.

My estimate for Stealing code of laws is about 450 espionage. One turn of espionage should be good. One turn 4 of our spy resting in Poverty point I will do that. OK

We have 443 hammers in forest that we can chop into the Pyramids using 16 worker turns. It looks like we can get it done in 10 turns. As far as I can tell the AI pay full cost for wonders. Peter has no stone and at least 1 forest. I think chances are pretty good that we can get the wonder built. If we send worker from Bibracte to help we can get it built in 8 turns. Let's do that. Use the 2 workers now in IT to chop the pre-chopped forests, and then move some of them to chop Bib forests as soon as that won't slow Mids. Move worker 5 and worker 1 (Don't forget to have him skip turn.) now to pre-chop and then chop Mids after Stone is connected.

PPP
Use 4 workers to chop the Pyramids. After Pyramids send one worker to chop Moai. Two workers to chop The Great Library. One worker build cottages in TC. Have issue here. Worker 4 (SE of CC) is all we need to chop forests for Moai after we have stone. He can begin roading the tile he's on next turn and then begin chopping forests (and 7 will all be pre-chopped) once stone is connected. Building a cottage in TC should not take priority over completing the GLib.

Spread Judaism to Peter. If Christianity auto spreads I will reconsider. Spread Christianity to CC.

Cities
5W (renamed from 6W) Yes, do correct the error.
Will work silver and chop granary. Whip Lighthouse at size 5. Let the food bin get to about half full first.

Island
Whip Granary at size 2. Then whip Lighthouse when available.

6R
Whip Christian Missionary into National Epic and repeat. Sounds good. Do we want a spy in Russia?

CC
Change to Moai once stone is available.

Bibracte
Build the Great Library. Then build for fail gold. If we have Currency, why not build a market or just build gold for immediate benefit? Is there something to build that uses stone?

BB
Build Missionaries and fail gold. How about a market?

TC
Build Pyramids

Tech
Research order Currency, Civil Service(after tech steal), MC, Compass, Machinery, Optics

I do not understand you Galley move. It seems like it would only work with Engineering. You're right.

At the moment I'm favouring Taj Mahal as we do not have any resources that we can improve with Calendar. OK, we have to make choices. We should be able to trade for Calendar eventually.

Music is a good tech that would give us an artist for a golden age. That would allow us to generate 2 GM and 1 GS for an Education rush. The more I think about it the better it sounds. Getting bureaucracy and Oxford is probably much better than meeting AIs.

New tech path.

Music, Currency, Civil Service Paper, Education.

Or should it be Music, Philosophy, Civil Service, Paper Education? What about Music, Currency, CS, Meditation (required for Phil), Phil, Paper, Ed? Can steal Med from Sioux. Presume we will only run Pacifism (losing OR) during a GA., so don't see why Phil so soon?

Need to spread Judaism to 6R and 5W.

Green to go. If you are able to play tonight, then I will look at save and post a plan for you to look at Wednesday morning.

 

[Folket]

I will need to think a little.

I think we should build a second spy just to increase chance of success, whipping a spy into the Moai in CC makes sense to me. I think stealing meditation is more expensive then researching it.

If we are picking up Phil we want it soon so that we can start our golden age with pacifism. If we start the golden age one turn before finishing AP we can revolt to Christianity without anarchy. Having Christianity in CC, 5W and 6R we can make great use of pacifism and revolt back before the GA ends. It feels very efficient.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I will need to think a little. Good thoughts below.

I think we should build a second spy just to increase chance of success, whipping a spy into the Moai in CC makes sense to me. I think stealing meditation is more expensive then researching it. Sounds right.

If we are picking up Phil we want it soon so that we can start our golden age with pacifism. If we start the golden age one turn before finishing AP we can revolt to Christianity without anarchy. Having Christianity in CC, 5W and 6R we can make great use of pacifism and revolt back before the GA ends. It feels very efficient.

No argument with having Phil in time for Golden age, and utilizing Christianity in 5W and 6R is really clever, I just didn't think a GA would be appropriate that soon. Are you planning to use GA from Music to start one? Even so, won't it be awhile before we are one turn from finishing the AP and getting Christianity to CC, and won't we want Civil Service to be able to switch to Caste? Work out that timing for need for Phil and play. Go more than ten turns to complete projects if you wish.

 

[Folket]

We do not need civil service for Caste system. That is code of laws which we will try to steal in 6 turns. I will need to figure out some timings. I think I will just play to code of law steal. We can decide between Philosophy or civil service before then.

 

[Cactus Pete]

We do not need civil service for Caste system. That is code of laws which we will try to steal in 6 turns. I will need to figure out some timings. I think I will just play to code of law steal. We can decide between Philosophy or civil service before then.

I will keep monitoring the thread, then.

 

[Folket]

turn 106
Sitting bull converted as expected.
Sitting bull starts to research HBR.
Peter now has 50 hammers in Moscow. I used sabotague building intead of sabotague construction so this value is nonsense.
It seems like 318 espionage is enough for CoL. We may be able to steal Meditation as well.
Russia settled a new city.
I forgot to move Christian missionary, it will delay AP 1 turn but should not be a catastrophy.

turn 107
6R wants to join Germany.
Moscow built the Temple of Artemis. Which is great news. 1300 gold GMs will not be bad. 1500 if we can get 12 pop or if he builds a harbour.

turn 108
Peter researched Feudalism.

turn 109
Got music and a great artists.

turn 112
spy fails at 67% to steal CoL at a costs of 319.

turn 113
Got currency
Built the Pyramids

Spoiler Log :

Turn 105, 250 BC: You have trained Jewish Missionary in Beaver Bay (BB). Work has now begun on The Temple of Artemis.
Turn 105, 250 BC: Sitting Bull converts to Confucianism!

Turn 106, 225 BC: Judaism has spread in Poverty Point.
Turn 106, 225 BC: You have trained Christian Missionary in 6R. Work has now begun on National Epic.
Turn 106, 225 BC: You have trained a Spy in Canal City (CC). Work has now begun on Moai Statues.
Turn 106, 225 BC: Peter has completed The Temple of Artemis!

Turn 107, 200 BC: Beaver Bay (BB) can no longer work on The Temple of Artemis. The lost ℤ is converted into 99ℴ!
Turn 107, 200 BC: You have constructed a Granary in 6R West (5W). Work has now begun on a Lighthouse.
Turn 107, 200 BC: You have constructed a Granary in Island Town IT. Work has now begun on a Lighthouse.

Turn 108, 175 BC: Louis Armstrong (Great Artist) has been born in Bibracte (Lady Stoneheart)!
Turn 108, 175 BC: You have discovered Music!

Turn 109, 150 BC: You have trained Christian Missionary in 6R. Work has now begun on National Epic.
Turn 109, 150 BC: You have constructed Moai Statues in Canal City (CC). Work has now begun on The Apostolic Palace.

Turn 110, 125 BC: Peter adopts Vassalage!

Turn 111, 100 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 24 ℤ for Twin Clams (TC).
Turn 111, 100 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Twin Clams (TC).
Turn 111, 100 BC: Twin Clams (TC) will grow to size 9 on the next turn.
Turn 111, 100 BC: Canal City (CC) will grow to size 12 on the next turn.
Turn 111, 100 BC: 6R West (5W) will grow to size 5 on the next turn.

Turn 112, 75 BC: Twin Clams (TC) has grown to size 9.
Turn 112, 75 BC: Twin Clams (TC) can hurry The Pyramids for 1⇴ with 17ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 11 turns.
Turn 112, 75 BC: Canal City (CC) has grown to size 12.
Turn 112, 75 BC: 6R West (5W) has grown to size 5.
Turn 112, 75 BC: Clearing a Forest will create 24 ℤ for Twin Clams (TC).
Turn 112, 75 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 24 ℤ for Twin Clams (TC).
Turn 112, 75 BC: A Celtic Spy 1 (Bibracte) has been stumbled upon while operating near the Native American city of Poverty Point!
Turn 112, 75 BC: Island Town IT will grow to size 2 on the next turn.
Turn 112, 75 BC: You have discovered Currency!
Turn 112, 75 BC: Lady Stoneheart has completed The Pyramids!
Turn 112, 75 BC: Peter has founded Yakutsk.

Turn 113, 50 BC: 6R will become unhappy on the next turn.
Turn 113, 50 BC: Island Town IT has grown to size 2.
Turn 113, 50 BC: Clearing a Forest will create 30 ℤ for Bibracte.
Turn 113, 50 BC: 6R will grow to size 9 on the next turn.

 

[Folket]

Failing the spy was not great. We have a second chance in three turns. But I thought getting Currency and Pyramids was a good time to stop and we need to consider what to do if our second spy fails as well. I do not think we should delay any longer.

I suggest we demand/beg for the 30 gold both opponents have. Research meditation. Save money and if CoL failed we research CoL and Philosophy. If we get CoL for free, determine if we have time for CS before philosophy.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Failing the spy was not great. We have a second chance in three turns. But I thought getting Currency and Pyramids was a good time to stop and we need to consider what to do if our second spy fails as well. I do not think we should delay any longer. Understood. I am going to post a plan below, but I'm fine with your finishing what you started and at least playing through the steal (or not) of CoL, then either deciding whether to research CS before Med and Phil and executing that plan; or, (in addition to the save) posting your decision (and a brief explanation would be appreciated), then turning it over for me to finish the research and the plan below.

I suggest we demand/beg for the 30 gold both opponents have. Research meditation. Save money and if CoL failed we research CoL and Philosophy. If we get CoL for free, determine if we have time for CS before philosophy.

I'm reluctant to solicit such small sums of gold. It's not clear that it's crucial, and it inhibits future solicitations when the sum might be significantly greater as could be the need.

Plan with questions inserted:

Bib -- Chop 2 forests to complete GLib; put overflow into market, and then build commerce if we fail to steal CoL
BB -- Build market but switch to commerce if we fail to steal CoL
TC -- Put overflow into market but switch to commerce as above
CC -- Questions here: What about whipping 3 citizens into a library (in two turns, after putting just 14 hammers into it) with overflow to the AP? Do we want to chop the remaining 4 pre-chopped forests now, which will reduce our food security by one until we are able to farm the wheat? Is there a chance our Christian missionary will not be accepted by the Jews in TC and so we should briefly hold one in reserve? Where would you have the other two Christian missionaries go?
6R -- Build NE until can build and whip another Christian missionary.
5W -- Build lighthouse, then gold and grow city
IT -- Build lighthouse, then gold if needed or build both barracks and dun to near completion for future whipping.

Workers:
wk4 -- deal with AP needs
wk5 -- complete tundra cottage in TC, then mine tundra hill 1NE of city
workers 1, 2, and 6 -- chop the Glib, then one to BB tundra cottage and other two can create other TC cottages and start preparing remaining forests for chopping

Galleys -- Looking for suggestions here. What is galley 2 doing 3S of BB?

I note that the missionary in Russia chose not to proselytize in Yek or Yak. Why not?

Do we hold off on building Jewish temples until we know the AP's religion?

It's getting late here. I will get back on the computer in about 8 hours (2 PM your time). Play as much or little as you prefer. I will be available to comment or play.

 

[Folket]

I'm reluctant to solicit such small sums of gold. It's not clear that it's crucial, and it inhibits future solicitations when the sum might be significantly greater as could be the need.That is fine.

Plan with questions inserted:

Bib -- Chop 2 forests to complete GLib; put overflow into market, and then build commerce if we fail to steal CoL
BB -- Build market but switch to commerce if we fail to steal CoL
TC -- Put overflow into market but switch to commerce as above
CC -- Questions here: What about whipping 3 citizens into a library (in two turns, after putting just 14 hammers into it) with overflow to the AP? Do we want to chop the remaining 4 pre-chopped forests now, which will reduce our food security by one until we are able to farm the wheat? Is there a chance our Christian missionary will not be accepted by the Jews in TC and so we should briefly hold one in reserve? Where would you have the other two Christian missionaries go? We will soon have 3 more happiness from representation so I did not want to kill of people we might want to use for GPs.
6R -- Build NE until can build and whip another Christian missionary. I think save pop for the GA.
5W -- Build lighthouse, then gold and grow city
IT -- Build lighthouse, then gold if needed or build both barracks and dun to near completion for future whipping.

Workers:
wk4 -- deal with AP needs
wk5 -- complete tundra cottage in TC, then mine tundra hill 1NE of city
workers 1, 2, and 6 -- chop the Glib, then one to BB tundra cottage and other two can create other TC cottages and start preparing remaining forests for chopping

Galleys -- Looking for suggestions here. What is galley 2 doing 3S of BB? I did not see what it needed to do so I moved it where it may be of use shipping missionaries.

I note that the missionary in Russia chose not to proselytize in Yek or Yak. Why not? I was thinking a larger town may make him more resistant to converting to an other religion and he might even ship out a missionary.

Do we hold off on building Jewish temples until we know the AP's religion? I think christian temples and jewish temples are good builds. We get happiness, and either hammer or needed for victory conditions.

It's getting late here. I will get back on the computer in about 8 hours (2 PM your time). Play as much or little as you prefer. I will be available to comment or play. I do not see me playing today. Going to be pretty busy.

My biggest question is if we want to revolt to representation now or wait for the GA?

 

[Cactus Pete]

If you're monitoring, would appreciate your thoughts on these . . .Questions here: Do we want to chop the remaining 4 pre-chopped forests now, which will reduce our food security by one until we are able to farm the wheat? Is there a chance our Christian missionary will not be accepted by the Jews in TC and so we should briefly hold one in reserve? Where would you have the other two Christian missionaries go? We will soon have 3 more happiness from representation so I did not want to kill of people we might want to use for GPs. Concur.

My biggest question is if we want to revolt to representation now or wait for the GA?

Right now, Rep would only be a significant help in CC. It would add a little research in 6R and in Bib -- once the Glib is built there, it would add research to the two free scientists -- and it probably could be utilized in TC. Once we get CoL, if we can still change two civics in one turn, then it's a bit more attractive, but we really need to be growing our cities in prep for the GA, not running specialists.So, would strongly argue not to revolt at this point. We would loose more by a turn of anarchy than we would gain by running Rep until our GA. If we get CS and can still change two civics for just one turn of anarchy, then that would be very tempting, except that, by then, the GA would presumably soon be in effect.

I will wait for your response before playing or not.

 

[Folket]

I think the chance of the Christian missionary failing is 11%, but I sent a second one to CC in case that happens.

Not revolting seems to make sense.

I do not see any problem with going unhealthy. If we need to delay because of Philosophy timing then I guess we should save some forests.

 

[Folket]

You can go ahead and play. Hopefully you have better luck with the spy. I think playing until Philosophy, 1 turn before AP finishes makes sense.

 

[Folket]

Also keep track of AI gold per turn. We may be able to sell a resource for money.

 

[Cactus Pete]

You can go ahead and play. Hopefully you have better luck with the spy. I think playing until Philosophy, 1 turn before AP finishes makes sense.

Will do and will look to trade resource for gold per turn.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Played to 150 AD (T121) without incident

T115 (1AD): Judaism spread to 6R and to St. Petersburg

T116: GLib completed; Peter converts to Judaism; steal of CoL successful; put research on Med

T117: Meditation researched and Phil now 4 turns away; Christianity spread to CC and Bib

T118: GM born in a far away land; Christianity spreads to BB;

T119: Great Spy born in Moscow; Judaism spread to 5W

T120: Research of Phil is completed and Tao founded in TC (what to do with the missionary – scout Sioux?); Peter starts a GA and Sitting Bull changes to OR;

T121 (150 AD): Christianity spread to TC (missionary built in Bib)

AP will come in next turn if forest is chopped this turn.

Left several worker turns to your discretion

Note that Itza can now be built for fail gold X 2.

Can trade Med for Archery with Peter.

If Theo is demanded now, do we give it? BTW, I have experienced no demands or solicitations (other than trade proposals). Is this something else that the map maker can regulate?

Do we want a spy in Russia? Not a pressing matter but note that Peter has 2 horses and Sioux none, so he might make that trade at some point, though not sure what he'd get in return. If we go to war with Sioux, might be good to sabotage one of Peter's horses just before we do.

Save posted at Central. Edit: failed to pause game.

 

[Folket]

I think we are looking very good. I do not have time to plan a GA this morning but my intuition says we should be able to get 4 GPs from a GA. I suggest 2 GMs and 2 GSs.

 

[Folket]

I do not think markets will pay for themselfs except for cities which need the happiness. After this GA we should aim for 100% research the rest of the game.

I think we sell Theology to Sitting Bull for 30 gold. It should make him pleased prevent any chance of him declaring war for a while and also give him a chance to research divine right so that Peter does not found it.

Should we continue caste system outside of GA? At the moment I'm leaning towards yes.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I think we are looking very good. I do not have time to plan a GA this morning but my intuition says we should be able to get 4 GPs from a GA. I suggest 2 GMs and 2 GSs.

Sounds fine. Would like to understand why 2 GMs and 2GS would be optimal.