SGOTM 9 - Hagar

[AlanH]

Welcome to your game thread. Please use it and subscribe to it, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game here, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest. I hope you enjoy the game.

The starting saves will become available on the SGOTM Progress and Results page on November 11th, at midnight, server local time.

Thanks again to Gyathaar for coming up with the variant and developing the map.

You are the Viking leader, Ragnar Lodbrok*. You have met the Indian leader, Gandhi, and you have signed a pact in blood. The Vikings agree to teach india the art of war, and make them strong through conflict. In return India will take the Vikings to the stars.

* Vanilla players play as Einar Ragnarson, but he had the same craving for space travel as his father.

You start the game as a near neighbour of India. Following the pact you are at permanent war with Gandhi, and must remain so for the rest of the game. You are allowed no peace treaties with India. And India must win by space victory. All victory conditions are switched on except diplomatic, but the winning team will be the one that gets India to Alpha Centauri, and does it fastest.

PTW and Vanilla teams are not permitted to leader rush Great Wonders before 1000 BC in this game

Here's the start.

Map Parameters
Playable Civ - Scandinavia / Vikings
Opponents - Seven, preselected, including India
World size - 100 wide by 100 high. (Standard)
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Continents
Barbarians - Roaming

The map is handbuilt, and therefore may not have a standard configuration.

Game mods:
The AI races have Deity level unit support.
Otherwise, this game uses the default rules as defined in the SGOTM Reference Thread.

The SGOTM Mediterranean resources are included in this game. If you have played SGOTM 7 then you will be ready. If not you may need to download and unzip a small graphics mod pack. Vanilla/Mac players need to install the GOTM mods. The best way to achieve this is to use the relevant All-in-one GOTM Installer for your OS, linked in my signature.

Please visit the following links to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.

The GOTM Reference Thread.
SGOTM Reference Thread.

Notes:

A. The Classic (Play the World and vanilla 1.29) versions of Civ3 AND Conquests version 1.22 (C3C) are all supported in this game. Because of the different game play, Classic and C3C teams will play for separate awards.
B. All teams must play the sponsored variant.
C. You MUST play from the start file assigned to your team. All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Gyathaar's SGOTM 8 created some new challenges for everyone. I hope you will enjoy this one as much. Good luck in your efforts to lose with style and honour.

 

[IstariAsuka]

Checking in.

 

[Andronicus]

Reporting for duty

This appears to be a more outlandish scenario than usual - may call for thinking outside the square. I suspect (considering Gyanthar's previous maps) we could find other surprises in store for us (eg how the heck do we get India to travel half way round the world to capture a modern age resource).

Some early thoughts

1) We will be at war all game
- this appears to preclude Rep and Feud, making Monarchy the preferred early govt.

2) It is a space race
- research speed will be a major factor in early victory (read Indian victory)
- how to speed up research on Monarch level with no option of representative govt and one AI science civ which will also remain at war and be unable to trade with us?

I think this makes a strong case for ICS of corrupt regions with hiring of many scientists to boost our research. This will be even more beneficial than a normal science game where research is boosted by Republic commerce bonus.
Lux trading and gifting of techs to AI will hopefully result in some AI contribution to research.
Optional techs should only be researched where they provide sig benefit.
How do we ensure other AI on-trade these techs to India?
Do we reduce the number of civs to reduce tech beaker cost (esp if we get useless researchers - think Zulu)

One off beat strat would be beat up other civs and restrict India to pre Education by pillaging and knocking back to OCC, meanwhile build or capture the GL allowing India to capture it only when all necessary techs have been discoverred by 2 civs (us and 1 other), then gifting (allow to be captured) a core of productive cities complete with factories and plants, then burn their previous city.
I tried a quick game in this setting but it didnt turn out quick in terms of date(because I didnt MM) and have only just reached stage of India and 1 other civ at OCC but only in early IA in 1300s due to slow research rate and no use of AI for assistance. My feeling is research would have been quicker if used AI to help by gifting techs - look forward to team's thoughts.

3) Must avoid other victory conditions
- diplo turned off so main threat likely to be accidentally going over dom limit with lots of ICS cities - most at risk time would be after building internet and subsequent cultural expansion.
- need to avoid other civs getting to space - I assume we should have strongest military presence and be able to prevent this - may want to eliminate any threats late in the game if we chose to ecourage AIs to be strong research partners.

4) AI have diety level unit support
- not sure what effect this may have - probably make AI tougher, may provide more leader opportunities for our militaristic nature, I assume this doesnt extend to providing AI with diety level starting units - that would affect early war plans.

5) India must not be conquored
Will we be on a different continent?
If so, should we help India gain complete control of their own continent?
Should we allow India a foothold on each island / continent to assist them to capture modern resources if we find the mapmaker has sneakily hidden them away.

I havnt even begun to consider start position - well it wont be settle in place.

The more I think on this game the more questions I have. I look forward to input from others - hopefully it will clarify my confusion .

Re roster - anyone not avail at any time please post - anyone dying to go first - volunteer.

 

[IstariAsuka]

I'm pretty sure that gifting them GL won't work, since don't you only get up to education, even if you're eligible for further techs? If so that won't work. Plus keeping them that far behind seems rather hard.

The main problem I forsee is how to get them the appropriate techs. The AIs don't trade overly cheaply with each other on monarch, so we have to some way to get India lots of money, so they can purchase techs from other AIs (whom we gift the techs to).

Maybe the best way would be to have another, weaker AI wage war against India, and make sure than weaker AI has tons of cash to give to India at war's conclusion.

Does anyone know how it determines how much money you steal when you capture a city? Because another way to get them lots of money would be to build up a large treasury, then have them capture several of our cities. They can then use this money to purchase tech.

Anyways, this seems like it will be rather difficult. Should be fun.

 

[Andronicus]

I'm pretty sure that gifting them GL won't work, since don't you only get up to education, even if you're eligible for further techs? If so that won't work.

Actually you can get all techs - the GL becomes obsolete at the end of the turn ( good strat for those sid games where you get a long way behind - or so I have read never having played a sid game)

Plus keeping them that far behind seems rather hard.

At monarch, always warring they will be very slow. In my trial game without MMing to the nth degree and not attacking them they did not get monotheism until I was entering IA. I then decided to pillage all their tiles with my many armies (had just been picking off their units when they came into my territory), then once they learnt chivalry and got their GA with a WE victory, I decided to leave them with just 1 city. I'm pretty sure at this rate they will not self research education - had I attacked them earlier they would likely still be in AA!
NB - I am not advocating the GL strat - just worth giving thought to it (perhaps someone can suggest a better way of acheiving it) Ultimately the benefits (edit - if successful) are 1) ensuring India gets all techs required as soon as researched - if India did get into MA there would be an anxious time hoping they didnt get education and 2) allowing us to maintain strong tech lead over AI making conquest of other civs easier.

The main problem I forsee is how to get them the appropriate techs. The AIs don't trade overly cheaply with each other on monarch, so we have to some way to get India lots of money, so they can purchase techs from other AIs (whom we gift the techs to).

Maybe the best way would be to have another, weaker AI wage war against India, and make sure than weaker AI has tons of cash to give to India at war's conclusion.

Does anyone know how it determines how much money you steal when you capture a city? Because another way to get them lots of money would be to build up a large treasury, then have them capture several of our cities. They can then use this money to purchase tech.

AFAIK the conquering civ gets a % of treasury dependent upon number of cities - civ has 10 cities capture 1 get 10% treasury. The trick would be get AI down to 1 city, gift it a city in India's territory, take their other city, protect the city in India's area until make peace and then give them all our gold for alliance v India . Of course we would then remove our defensive forces to allow them to attack India.
I like this idea. This trick could only be done a limitted number of times but it is a good thought for those civs which we decide are of no research use.

Anyways, this seems like it will be rather difficult. Should be fun.

I agree, thats why I was tempted to do this

PS just looked closely at opening screeenshot and it appears India are on a 1 tile island - we may have to provide them with more cities.

 

[Khan_Asparuh]

I disagree with you Andronicus. This isn't going to be all war game. This isn't AW. We'll only be in war with India. And check the screenshot, they start on 1 tile island! With a lot of bonuses around, certainly, but they are destined to be the lagger for the entire game!
The starting units at Monarch are kept so they only have a settler and worker. Hope Gandhi joins him.
We can go for a representative government.
I like the idea of letting India to take the GL city. And yes, if we want to build up a part of our empire meant to be captured by the single warrior the indians may land when they get MM (this will take a lot of time, I think India is destined to play OCC for some 150 turns), that's the moment when we must start thinking about WW.
So, IMO, lets develop our empire, try to be as fast as possible up to MM (even less important than Republic), than trade it AFAP.
I think that in the long term we must get rid of everybody, while letting India develop a controlled core. This will cheapen the techs for them. The alternative is to leave all the AIs at OCC, then gift them techs. I don't know if the techs are cheaper when known by more civs or when there are less civs in the game.
After thought, this is what I propose.
Build the GL. Let India take the city. Reduce everyone at OCC and then start gifting them the results of our research, so that they can trade it to India.
Of course, this will stop up in the MA.
What do you think of this?
EDIT: And yes, this is nice idea! Build up, block India down to OCC, limit the others, as they can't help us a lot in research; than when in the MA let India get the GL. But we must be there before they get Education. Tough.

 

[Andronicus]

@ Khan

Are you saying that if we keep India to their 1 tile island without losing any of our units or cities we would experience no WW?

I am certainly familiar with fighting limitted wars in Republic - can cont for some time if casualties are low, but I was under the impression that in a representative govt eventually WW would inevetably ensue if continue the war (which in this game we have to).

If I am mistaken and we can remain indefinitely at war provided we lose no units then I agree Republic would markedly speed our research rate and a more conventional approach of Rep slingshot would be advantageous.
I recall reading there are other factors influencing WW including having units in enemy territory ? enemy units in our territory. If we commit to Republic path we need to be certain we can remain in Republic long enough for it to be worthwhile over the Monarchy path.

Please enlighten me

 

[Andronicus]

After thought, this is what I propose.
Build the GL. Let India take the city. Reduce everyone at OCC and then start gifting them the results of our research, so that they can trade it to India.
Of course, this will stop up in the MA.
What do you think of this?
EDIT: And yes, this is nice idea! Build up, block India down to OCC, limit the others, as they can't help us a lot in research; than when in the MA let India get the GL. But we must be there before they get Education. Tough.

If we can be in Republic then I believe this has a fair chance of success. In worse case scenario - India actually researches or trades with other civs - we can keep a check on their progress and consider gifting them earlier if they discover Theology. Hopefully this would be after we have enterred modern age leaving only a few techs to "teach" India. The risk would be if they learned or traded for Education before capturing the GL.

 

[markh]

Checking in. SGOTM8 not yet over for me and the new one starts already.

My initial thought was to get them on the continent as soon as they have MM. In short I would have tried to get away from India, even with a palace jump to let them establish their core at our starting position. We would establish a new meaning of a "runaway civ". Maybe if the other continent is not too far even get over there, depends on the map of course. I would try to help them get control of our continent as even on Monarch they can still research quite fast if they get enough land. With deity level unit support they should be able to put more money into their research although they war. So it might be faster than usual on Monarch.

GL strategy sounds good, but timing it will be difficult. But why not trying it, we will not lose anything attempting this.

I do not have any experience with OCC-AIs, so I cannot really comment on this.

Anyway I am looking forward playing this. New variants are always welcome.

 

[Abegweit]

Abegweit checking in.

I really like this idea of a Great Library elevator. Kudos, Andronicus for thinking of it. It'll be tricky to pull off.. but what a coup if we do. Arthur C Clarke would be proud of you!

WRT the question of War Weariness, this article explains it. In this game, the most important factors are to avoid losing units to the Indians and to avoid ending our turns in their territory. A blockade may be the best solution. Republic should be the way to go. Maybe a late game switch to Communism (or something anyway) might be required if thousands of years of war eventually becomes intolerable to our people.

I think we seem to be in agreement about the rest, but let me sum it up just to make sure:

1) Beeline to Republic. This is Monarch. Go for the slingshot.
2) Blockade India. They have to stay backwards and have no contacts.
2) Conquer the world. Our UU is awesome for this. Who needs knights?
3) ICS the hell out of it.
4) Once Space has been researched, let India out.
5) Let them take the Great Library and several other fine cities. Perhaps our entire core?
6) Sit back and watch the elevator take off to the sky!

 

[Khan_Asparuh]

Andronicus, WW cumulates after city raze, capture, attacks on your units, including bombardment and units lost. So yes, if we block Ghandi with galleys from all sides, so that he couldn't land, we'll face no resistance, the AI isn't intelligent enough to prepare decent anti-blockade attack.

So Republic is a way we can take, yes. The problem with the war is that we can't gift anything to the fellow pacifist, no cities nor techs. So we must build the GL, eliminate the others from the game, research all techs and allow Ghandi to land.

We're taking a risk. If he's stupid enough to go all out units and no galleys, we're bad. We'll have to use marines. So this can be tough. Do we want to let Ghandi leave his lonely island or not???

EDIT: Abegweit, I agree with you, only with the fear that they may not build any boat, only normal units, until they reach their limit in numbers, and then we're bad. That's what we risk with isolating them. And to answer to Markh, sacrificing our core to India won't allow them to get up in the sky faster, because we'll be able to research faster then them.

Finally, can we eventually avoid ICS? Just a thought, never has been my favorite.

 

[Abegweit]

Question: how can we be sure of how advanced India is? We'll be able to tell once they get galleys.

@Staff Are we allowed to open the diplo screen to check?

 

[Khan_Asparuh]

Post this in the maintenance tread, the other teams will be interested too...

 

[Abegweit]

We're taking a risk. If he's stupid enough to go all out units and no galleys, we're bad. We'll have to use marines. So this can be tough. Do we want to let Ghandi leave his lonely island or not???

Abegweit, I agree with you, only with the fear that they may not build any boat, only normal units, until they reach their limit in numbers, and then we're bad.

Seems to me that this is all to the good. Let him hit his unit count and stagnate 'till the Modern Era. No boats to worry about makes everything easier. Then, as you suggest, we use marines and bombers to take out all these ancient units. Shouldn't be hard. We'll probably be facing warriors and archers Once they are gone, he can start making boats whereupon we let him walk over our core.

Finally, can we eventually avoid ICS? Just a thought, never has been my favorite.

I meant to build a science farm. I'm all in favour of having a big strong core, especially as the objective is space.

 

[Khan_Asparuh]

That's pretty much my idea. I'm only scared that the morron will restart building land units after. I even thought letting him unblocked, until he builds a galley, then block it once it goes out of his city (with more galleys) and release it only several thousand years later. A bit too complicated but maybe worth in front of the risk of having to lose the game in 2050 because he never learnt to sail...

 

[Abegweit]

I'm pretty sure that building boats will be way up on his to-do list, right after getting a few garrison units. The AI puts high priority on expansion and contacts.

We'll want to let him out before we are ready to give him the Library in order to let him build up infra on the mainland in order to get to space real quick. My guess is that we should do it right about the time we get marines. IOW, we count on the science farm to keep pumping out techs while letting him take the core.

The precise timing doesn't have to be decided immediately, of course (and couldn't be anyway). There is one thing though which we do have to figure out pretty soon - and that's where to build the GL. I think it should be on the other side of our core. This way we can let him out to invade the nearer cities and build them up. This way we control the exact moment at which we send off the elevator.

All this depends on how close he is to education when we reach the Modern Age. It's difficult to predict right now but I think he'll be pretty backwards, especially if we nab some of those resources around his island.

 

[juballs2001]

checking in guys.

just to tell you my strengths..... lol
warmongering


thats it....
lol,

kinda busy as of late, but will be ready to go whenever we can. i ahev no objections to going first second or last.

 

[Andronicus]

Thanks for clearing me up about WW - never been in situation where "at war" all game but doing no fighting for most of it.

I think we need to carefully consider the end game implications of this strat.

We need 1 other civ to be kept around and introduced to Ghandi (after gifting them all techs) for GL trick to work - could even let Ghandi capture GL and introduce him as soon as we learn last required tech. Would need to be careful not to let Ghandi out too soon otherwise he will speed up his research in our former cities (perhaps they could be prepared for production not commerce - pillage roads then mine).
In my trial game I have Ghandi 1 city but getting him to take 10-12 cities to get to GL city is a pain. Letting him out too soon risks spoiling GL gifting chance but too late slows post GL building of ship and components.
We also have to ensure he gets all required resources and I expect they are not all to be found on our starting continent. In some ways I like the idea of giving Ghandi a beach head on our land (gift city to 3rd party and get them in alliance with Ghandi just after Ghandi lands troops beside city) and then blockade him until its time to set him free. This would ensure he has lots of units to rapidly aquire the territory we plan to gift him.
We need to be careful of not letting him take our core too soon as once we start losing units I expect we would have to change govt so would be losing rep commerce bonus as well as core science cities with resultant slowing of research rate.

My thinking is there will be some frustrated teams gnashing their teeth in exasperation at Ghandi during this late stage. Lets plan not to be one of them.

@Abegweit
Re checking how advanced Ghandi is ...
Civassist tells you what trades are possible once enemies are willing to talk (which Ghandi will after half a doz turns or so). So for rest of game can either go F4 screen and check what trades avail, or go into civassist avail trades screen (alerts will also tell you immed when new trades avail - ie when Ghandi learns a tech allowing new one)

 

[Abegweit]

]I think we need to carefully consider the end game implications of this strat.

Yes. OTOH, the alternative is problematic too. Do we really expect a Monarch AI to research all the way to space in a reasonable amount of time?

We also have to ensure he gets all required resources and I expect they are not all to be found on our starting continent.

This is a good point and it complicates the matter severely. I'm not sure what the solution is. Perhaps we need to gift him all the good stuff? This means the elevator needs to take place a bit before space in order to give him time to get to other continents. Leave resources open but protect our other holdings because we need to continue researching. The AI loves to settle open land. Once he has the required resources, we start gifting techs to the third civ to be traded to Ghandi.

In some ways I like the idea of giving Ghandi a beach head on our land (gift city to 3rd party and get them in alliance with Ghandi just after Ghandi lands troops beside city) and then blockade him until its time to set him free. This would ensure he has lots of units to rapidly aquire the territory we plan to gift him.

Yeah. I'd thought of this too. I think it is a good strat. I do think that your technique is a little complicated though. Simply open up a bit of terrain and let him at it. He'll go for it. By the time we're ready, we should have reduced the other rest of the Civs to an OCC in some tundra town which we completely control access to. This way, we can time the moment of their meeting to be exactly when we choose. All we have to do is to gift contact to Mr/Ms Icicle when we are ready. BTW, we could have several Icicle people around. This might encourage tech trading

I'd tend to agree that Ghandi should make his break out in stages. There's no reason to decide the exact manner yet though. The only early decision we have to make is where to place the GL.

We need to be careful of not letting him take our core too soon as once we start losing units I expect we would have to change govt so would be losing rep commerce bonus as well as core science cities with resultant slowing of research rate.

There's no reason to lose units but we will have to lose cities. This will hit us with WW hard (there is nothing worse) so we do need to plan on a late switch to some other govt. I don't have my civ disk with me right now but... aren't the Celts religious? In any case, remember that a science farm functions perfectly well during anarchy.

 

[Andronicus]

I don't have my civ disk with me right now but... aren't the Celts religious? In any case, remember that a science farm functions perfectly well during anarchy.

We're Vikings - seafaring and militaristic

How bout late switch to commie?