SGOTM 9 - Hagar

Abegweit
Isari Asuka - computer problems - skip till notifies back in action
Khan Asparuh - away till 29/11
Andronicus - just played
juballs 2001 - next - post got it when able
markh - on deck
 
I think we need some BIG PICTURE discussion

At some stage India will get MM and break out. Ghandi will attack us and to avoid WW we will need to gift to 3rd party after allying them v India. I dont think this will be very soon, as Ghandi has not researched writing, but the speed he has researched maths and mysticism worries me. I would prefer to wait until late IA to let India start taking cities with goal of Ghandi getting max benefit of GLib when he aquires WV. The only way to delay him other than defending his attacks (with resulting WW) is to occupy all tiles accessable from inland sea. Already 3 tiles are occupied by cities and 2 more are planned on the dot map (a 6th and 7th are poss W/SW of T and W/NW of Stockholm. This would leave 33 tiles to occupy with units at cost of 66gpt.

When we release Ghandi we need a base to go to. I believe we need to vacate the starting continent in order to encourage Ghandi to persue spaceship building. The logical solution is to use Celt / American lands (Entremont has built pyramids to help us get established faster). We can easily aquire an interest on small islands with our UU so I dont think that is a priority. If we find an essential resource on one of these islands later it will not take much effort to aquire. Hopefully then leaving it undefended will attract Ghandi's attention.

To achieve the above as soon as poss (and hence victory condition ASAP) our efforts need to be directed towards rapid research and preparation for assault on Celt / Americans. Build up overseas base / time appropriate capital shift (? communism worth considering as once we move capital our prev productive core will become largly corrupt) There will likely be a dropoff in research as we get the overseas sites up to speed with libs and unis. I doubt there is benefit in unis on starting continent as these are non transferable and not likely to be of benefit for long enough. Do we want to build Copernicus or Newtons to give to Ghandi? Or do we want to encourage Celts to build them for us?
When should we time our GA. I suggest a UU timed one to coincide with military build up for OS transfer. ? cavs and caravels or knights and caravels.
Galley chain is an option open to us soon with say 8 galleys bringing over a stack of knights. I favour early conquest of the other continent.

These decisions influence what we do right now.
Questions such as what tech path we follow (do we detour to optional chivalry ?) and how much and to whom do we gift scientific knowledge. My thoughts are keep Ottomen as science partner (but not too big or will threaten Ghandi), maybe allow Carth an area, but not Monguls. On other island I think we want all Celt / American land so further gifting techs which will advance them may not be helpful when we come to takiong over their lands. What about Spain? Currently they appear quite backward.

These decisions are with us right now - we will discover currency in next turnset and may get construction (more likely have to self research). Then gift Ottomen to next age and persue diff tech for trading (can also trade with Celts for Monarchy and use this in trade - in addition I have held lit which could be part of trade for Ottoman's freebie.
We should feed research capabilities of those who might be helpful encouraging them to research the opposite paths to us. Trading lux (even gifting) will help this.

Any thoughts on different directions or variations to above ?

In particular I would like us to decide
1) How and when attack other continent
- ? galley + knights -> research priority to chivalry, start on barracks in maybe 10 turns
- ? wait for astronomy and caravels -> beeline for astronomy, encourage others -> chiv
- ? build GLH - risky unless have fallback wonder we want, likely to get beaten to GLH
- ? wait for cavs - skip chiv, beeline mil trad, encourage AI towards astronomy -> later takeover, may have bigger tech advantage for quicker war, more time to dev starting continent (this option probably requires boxing Ghandi in until we are ready)
- edit ? galleys and zerks as suggested by markh below - no need to research optional tech, need to consider how to get inland cities (1 move poor defence zerks not good option v GSs)
2) Who do we keep and gift techs / lux to and who do we get rid of (ie no further trading with unless we gain more)
- Monguls, Celts and Americans get my vote
 
How to attack ?

Galleys + berserks. 5 initial galleys loaded with berserks will be enough to take cities at first. From the screenshot I cannot judge, but maybe that jungle island is a good base for shipping units to the other continent. Need to check the save later today. Maybe there is a fast and safe way going east of the jungle island, so we do not need to go all the way north.

When to attack ?

I would like to have our new home rather sooner than later. I think the berserks are very powerful and we should use them. Hm, the little berserk sitting on my right shoulder slowly gets control of me.:crazyeye:
 
markh said:
How to attack ?

Galleys + berserks.

Good point - zerks :viking: are powerful attackers, dont req researching optional tech and remaining in galley are not subject to counter attacks (a few cheap pikes to fortify in taken cities can prevent recapture). Main problem is this is continents and there may be many inland cities.
We need to explore these other lands some more. I suggest exploring curragh continue counterclockwise around Celtic continent - we have no idea how far it is from the eastern jungle island.
 
k i got it.... i will read through this thread and download tongiht will play and pot by sunday at the latest
 
@juballs

I agree with Andronicus. It's time for some discussion. Let's take a timeout for a day or so. There's no need to rush things. I would like to add some comments but don't have the time now.
 
Andronicus said:
Good point - zerks :viking: are powerful attackers, dont req researching optional tech and remaining in galley are not subject to counter attacks (a few cheap pikes to fortify in taken cities can prevent recapture). Main problem is this is continents and there may be many inland cities.
We need to explore these other lands some more. I suggest exploring curragh continue counterclockwise around Celtic continent - we have no idea how far it is from the eastern jungle island.

Fully agree, just wanted to remind that we have a very nice UU. Attack value of 6 already with invention:D . Playing the Vikings I never researched chivalry and never waited until cavs even on continents or pangea (I always take what the random-gods give me). They are very good even against riflemen, so it would be a big waste not to use them. We should explore some more as I think Gyaathar was not that evil making our UU useless. Yes, they are slow which is a big disadvantage. It very depends how the other continent looks like. Difficult to judge right now.

What to do with Gandhi ? Maybe we should discuss this when we have a result from the GL. If we get it isolate him, if not let him go asap.

Concerning Otto I have mixed feelings. Having him researching he needs a good core, but with military tradition he gets nasty. I do not know whether Gandhi will be in a shape at that point to counter that in case Otto gets strange behaviours.
 
Abegweit said:
@juballs

I agree with Andronicus. It's time for some discussion. Let's take a timeout for a day or so. There's no need to rush things. I would like to add some comments but don't have the time now.
ok i totally agree with that.

i will d/l tommorow night then and play sunday and hopefully have it in by sunday night or monday
 
Some random thoughts

If we prepare land below chokes for Ghandi and let Otto and Carth divide up top half they could both have a decent core. Agree there is a danger with Otto's UU, but there is a fair chance Ghandi will get rifles and hopefully infantry from GLib and if Otto beats up on him we could always lend Ghandi a hand ( :crazyeye: whose side are we on anyway?). I am unsure on best decision here.

I would see Spain as ideal recipient of gifted towns as Ghandi approaches with alliance ensuring Ghandi takes the town. A civ on the same continent would be too risky. Does anyone know what order the AI play in. Ideally we should gift city and ensure alliance in our turn to somone who comes after Ghandi preventing them from rushing units.

An alternative, less costly, but more risky solution to boxing Ghandi in wit unit or city on every tile.
Allow Ghandi to take cities in mountain ring (these would be more useful to Ghandi than us and allows possibility of Ghandi sending boats out to undefended cities on islands (eg eastern jungle isle). This may help with ensuring Ghandi has required modern age resources).
To prevent WW we would need to kill off all landings threatening our core cities until we are ready for gifting - defending, even successfully, results in WW, but successful attacks do not. This could involve blocking strategic mountains to establish landing zones on the flat.

Important point. We do not want to allow Ghandi to attack T before jumping palace. We cannot gift the capital and if we abandon it before setting up overseas city as new capital then we may find capital jumping to WV - not the result we want as abandoning this in a palace jump would lose the GLib.

Currently we do not have the infrstructure to support a large invasion force. Waiting until astronomy and using caravels reduces (? removes) sinking risk and allows transport of more units per turn. Remember differential movement on so starting and finishing crossing from sea tile a big advantage.
Waiting for MT is poss too long and an optional tech to boot. Perhaps AI will research chiv allowing a contingent of knights to augment our zerk attack?
Considered building SoZ but these have little benefit v GSs and by time its built its advantage may be gone.
Also little benefit in GLH as unlikely to beat AI to it and probably have astronomy by then anyway.

Celts look to becoming cultural kings. I suggest removing them completely so we can use their cities without flip risk. Americans appear to share island / continent with Celts (havn't seen American city or borders yet but American warrior outside green borders and they lack MM). Only seen borders of 2 Celt cities - neither on coast :( . Note great city site not settled which exploring curragh has just passed - cow, wheat, oysters and BG all visible within potential city radius. I'll bet its taken by the time we could get a settler there.

I believe the most important strat at present is fast science.
Faster science means sooner to superior units to conquer and travel overseas, sooner to set up OS base and prepare to give Ghandi stating continent, sooner to trade for / obtain OS luxes, more techs to hand Ghandi via GLib.

Currently paying unit support - need more cities, stategic markets, a few cities to grow size 7 (currently only 1 - WV).
Also req libs to speed research.
FP to reduce corruption, and to help out with starting continent corruption following palace jump.
Once we have these we should have a more efficient empire to support barracks and units.

GA should give us a good science boost through middle ages.
 
I fully agree that we should concentrate on building Berserks over Knights. Combined with a couple of Spearmen and some Trebs, this will be a deadly attacking force. They will be just fine, even against Muskets (and I certainly will be annoyed if we see anything stronger). I also agree that our new home should be in Celtic America. Note that our most dangerous enemy will be the Celtic Swordsman, which is another reason to skip knights; they lose their retreat against fast units.

On the Gandhi issue and war weariness: Remember that he has no resources and the AI is incapable of amphibious assaults. He’s liable to drop off a single warrior or archer. Build a ring road and man it with a few strategically-placed trebs and Berserks. He’ll never get through. Even against a vet spearman on a mountain, which is most dangerous unit we’ll ever see, a Berserk is better than 70%. Against a regular (or a pinged vet), it mounts to over 80%. From time to time, we could bombard his home island with Berserks and Frigates/Ironclads which will convince him to stay home (just need to be careful not to take it!). If we happen to get them, an army or two will eliminate the problem altogether.

For the future, I see no point in keeping research partners. As Andronicus pointed out earlier, they just increase research costs and the Monarch AI just won’t be able to keep up with us in any case. Osman will be useful for his free tech, but he should be sent to find a new home in some suitable snowy retreat. As for the rest of the world, buh-bye.

In the early IA, I like to see the world looking like this: everything north of Odense and Forbidden City should be a massive science farm. Ditto for Spain. Celtic America is being prepared to be our new home. In the late IA, Gandhi is gifted our core lands and we move over to the New World. The science farms still belong to us and hopefully should tide us over until the new core is up and running. Later the science farms on the home continent can gradually abandoned to our friend if desired.

In the near future then, it’s full speed to trebs and Berserks. With these, we then take out the rest of the continent. Osman should be gifted into the new era for his free tech. Once Astronomy is discovered, we move on to the other side of the world and finish off the rest of the AIs.

A point to consider: while we don’t need research partners, if some AIs are willing to pay GPT for tech in the near term, we should by all means encourage them to do so. Does this mean giving out Republic? I suggest we do so, but only after the beginning of the new era. It should be worth trade value to Osman.

Once we own the place, there are some interesting tactics which we can try with Osman. For example, when we have reached the point where Gandhi is starting to break out, we could gift all our core cities to Osman and then sign an alliance with him against Gandhi. We could even be thoughtful enough to starve them down first! Similar ideas might work for getting key resources to our friend, although the mapmaker may have solved that problem for us.

On the Forbidden Palace, this is exactly the right location for it :goodjob: We should plan on gifting away everything south of Odense and FC so it will retain some of its value even after the jump. It might also be a bit of a help to some cities further north. We'll need at least one productive city here in order to defend against Gandhi Thinking about it though, I suppose units could be flown in. Given this, we might eventually want to jump the FP to the other continent too.
 
On the current situation:

WV is a friggin' weed, 'way too big compared to the other cities and rapidly getting even bigger. By hiring a clown and moving one citizen to the lake, we can slow it down a little while reducing the lux rate to 20%. This reduces the time to Currency to 5 turns. In the same vein, some tiles need to be mined. This will slow it down even more, while simultaneously speeding up pace towards getting the Library finally finished. The tile currently being irrigated should definitely be switched to a mine.
 
Abegweit said:
On the current situation:

WV is a friggin' weed, 'way too big compared to the other cities and rapidly getting even bigger. By hiring a clown and moving one citizen to the lake, we can slow it down a little while reducing the lux rate to 20%. This reduces the time to Currency to 5 turns. In the same vein, some tiles need to be mined. This will slow it down even more, while simultaneously speeding up pace towards getting the Library finally finished. The tile currently being irrigated should definitely be switched to a mine.

Good point - WV is growing every 4 turns at 5 fpt. Other towns need to be got up to size 7 for increased unit support - up till now we have been paying our unit costs with gold from selling techs - if we are going to eliminate most other AI then I would rather not trade them up to advanced units. I started switching core towns to infrastructure by building libs in all bar T (still SF) & WV (building GLib). Those not on lake / river will need ducts.


Re our attack force comprising mainly zerks - this means we can avoid optional techs and once in medieval ages should gift up ottomen for their free tech, research a diff tech (if Otto gets one of Feud or Engineering we go for other one) then swap techs throwing in rep. We then high tail it for Invention to get our UU - start our GA to speed us through to Astronomy to get us quickly and safely to other continent as well as pump out our zerks.
 
Andronicus said:
I started switching core towns to infrastructure by building libs in all bar T (still SF) & WV (building GLib). Those not on lake / river will need ducts.
Agreed. The only infra builds should be libs, markets and ducts. Banks, unis and chs are just not worth it. Odense and FC are exceptions. Odense will need a ch and a harbour. We should not build many harbours beyond that one, if any.


Re our attack force comprising mainly zerks - this means we can avoid optional techs and once in medieval ages should gift up ottomen for their free tech, research a diff tech (if Otto gets one of Feud or Engineering we go for other one) then swap techs throwing in rep. We then high tail it for Invention to get our UU - start our GA to speed us through to Astronomy to get us quickly and safely to other continent as well as pump out our zerks.
Zactly.
 
Just had a look at the save - dont see how can run 20% lux with scientist in WV. At 20% lux WV has 3 happies, 1 content and 5 unhappies. Hiring 1 scientist leaves 3 happy, 5 unhappy, also moving 1 citizen to work lake makes 1 unhappy content. To keep order need to hire a clown and move 1 citizen to work lake. Cost of this in lost production increases GLib build from 15 to 17 turns - no big deal seeing how we have monopoly on lit. I am in agreement that this small sacrifice is worth it in order to reduce lux rate and speed research.

The key points to speeding research IMHO are
- connect up lux (ivory will be connected in 3 turns), dyes a little way yet (normally I would recommend clearing jungle before roading it, but with need for lux ASAP I favour roading jungle tiles to dyes). This reduces lux spending
- get as many towns up to size 7 as poss. Bigger towns equals more tiles and more commerce. In addition each town going to size 7 increases our unit support by 2 reducing unit upkeep by 4. More to spend on science
- libs in non corrupt towns. Already commenced. Stavanger and Aarhus can probably build libs soon (I am currently using Stav as worker pump). T needs to wait until we have enough settlers to claim all our southern land. WV can build lib after GLib. FC will have to wait until after FP. Other towns too corrupt.
- FP to reduce corruption. FC req 65 further shields for court then 200 for FP. Currently can get 2 spt with 4 shields (2 lost in waste). There are 4 forests avail to speed court constrution leaving 25 shields to find. We dont need to push production until those 4 forests have been chopped. My plan is to increase size first with irrigation of 2 FPs to SW then mine BG to NW to allow for growth to size 7 whilst still producing 2spt after corruption and with mined grasses I anticipate 4spt with court allowing FP build in 50 turns after court.
- science farms. These are fairly tedious to set up but become self supporting after a while. Much more powerful after RR. With little AI help these should give us a considerable science boost during our switch to Celtic America.


Query - is there benefit to building unis? Depends how long till we hand over these core cities to Ghandi - if not for awhile may be worth building these in our core during our GA.

Wonders. WV has capacity to build wonders quickly should we wish. Is there a benefit to Leos for archer - zerk upgrade and later for Ghandi to capture along with GLib and be able to upgrade his units without bankrupting himself?

Out of left field - how about WV as a 4 turn SF size 10-12 after building its GLib and lib (+ market if have 3 lux connected)? Using 2 cows, lambs(irr) and irrigating 1 grass (one NW of T not yet developed) it would have 10fpt. Getting the necessary shields would be simple, even able to use high commerce lake tiles. Only prep this would req is irrigating lambs plus 1 grass tile. Advantage would be T could be grown above size 7 and build its lib to boost science. In addition WVs prime BGs could be used by other towns. The more I look at this the more appealing it becomes. Anyone see a glaring hole in this one?

Attached is screenie of WV with citizen moved to lake and hiring a clown on 20% lux
As a 4 turn SF WV would use:
- centre tile 2fpt, 1spt
- iCow(southern) 3fpt, 1spt
- iCow(northern) 2fpt, 2spt
- iLamb 2fpt, 1spt
- iGrass (NW of T) 1fpt
- iPlains (E of WV - cant be used by other towns) 1spt
- 3 lakes
- sundry 2 iPlains 2spt
- 2 turns out of 4 1 extra iPlain 1spt
Result 10fpt, 8spt 2 turns, 9spt 2 turns
If this is too big could operate 1 or 2 sizes smaller using less iPlains as has excess shields. 3 southern BGs could be used by T and Rey.
 
Further to using WV as 4turn SF
Whilst this would be very extravagant with food usage (10fpt v current 5fpt for 4 turner in T), we are no longer needing food as urgently as commerce
Growing T to size 12 using 2 coast (without req harbour) would give production of 16spt and commerce of 32bpt requiring mining grass E of T (already started), grass W of T (currently being roaded), roading of forest and (once grown to size 12) mining of irr grass
Currently T averages 15bpt giving 13 sci/ turn @ 80% sci. With above configuration T would be getting 32bpt resulting in 26 sci/ turn @ 80% sci converting to 39 sci/ turn with lib. This is a bonus of 26 science per turn.
edit - currently our total science output at 80% science is 72/ turn
 
Your pic is exactly as I had imagined it and it is true that it will take 17 turns instead of 15 to complete the wonder. We might get back to 16 with some mines but, as you say, the end date is no biggy. You are quite right that the key to fixing this is to get the lux situation straightened out.

I do not see that we should be building unis here. Settlers will have a bigger pay back in science since we are planning to abandon the area. The exception is FC, which we might consider turning into a science city. Newtons and Cops plus uni would make an awesome producer. It's on lake too! If we do this, we need to make sure it has plenty of space to grow.

As for Leos, I don't think so. GA production will be plenty good for building the military we need. Gold should go towards science, not upgrades.

I like the idea of turning WV into a 4-turner. We are going to need settlers for a long long time. However, I suggest an alternate plan: prune it back to a classic 4-5 factory and give the other tiles to other cities, letting them grow big. WV will pump out settlers just fine with the three tiles in the left of the your screenshot together with the one being worked. All the others can be worked by other cities. This avoids the loss of twenty food and several shields.
 
Abegweit said:
Odense will need a ch and a harbour. We should not build many harbours beyond that one, if any.

I disagree. I think once Oslo, Rey and perhaps Cop have built ducts, they would get large commerce benefit from growing bigger with harbour. I would argue these 3 towns should build lib (as currently) then duct then harbour.

As for ch - I am probably guilty of building way too many in most of my games - I would lean towards ch in Stav, but given it is low in shields (has a hill to be mined) and we will be gifting it reducing time for ch to be beneficial, I would agree with foregoing ch there. Not sure how much benefit in Odense - will it become productive before we gift it?
 
Andronicus said:
I disagree. I think once Oslo, Rey and perhaps Cop have built ducts, they would get large commerce benefit from growing bigger with harbour. I would argue these 3 towns should build lib (as currently) then duct then harbour.
I did say "not many more harbours". I haven't looked closely this question but if a city will be stunted for growth in the early MA, it should definitely get a harbour.

As for ch - I am probably guilty of building way too many in most of my games - I would lean towards ch in Stav, but given it is low in shields (has a hill to be mined) and we will be gifting it reducing time for ch to be beneficial, I would agree with foregoing ch there. Not sure how much benefit in Odense - will it become productive before we gift it?
My assumption was that we will be drawing the line at Odense and FC. This looks like a nice defensible line. This is why I said Odense should get a harbour. It will be close enough to the FP that it should get some benefit from a courthouse (and later a Police Station) too. If we agree to gift it, then it shouldn't get a ch and maybe not a harbour either. One argument in favour of giving it away is that it is a lux for Gandhi.

BTW, I just noticed. Delhi is on an iron hill. :cry:

Edit: OTOH. a sword is no more dangerous than a spear so long as you don't let it attack.
 
Abegweit said:
I like the idea of turning WV into a 4-turner. We are going to need settlers for a long long time. However, I suggest an alternate plan: prune it back to a classic 4-5 factory and give the other tiles to other cities, letting them grow big. WV will pump out settlers just fine with the three tiles in the left of the your screenshot together with the one being worked. All the others can be worked by other cities. This avoids the loss of twenty food and several shields.

Main concern with pruning back to size 4-6 is loss of increased unit support gained by being size 7 and loss of commerce from using less tiles.
OTOH 5fpt can be obtained with only the iCow as food bonus tile allowing Rey to use Lambs for speedier growth and Cop or Birka to use plains cow.
So many options.
My vote is we go for option giving best science boost - I think this is using WV as 10fpt 4turn SF.
Another option is to build a couple of settlers at 5fpt (thus reducing size by 1 over 4 turns - but not going below size 7) once GLib built, then build lib whilst growing again, then another few settlers at 5fpt, then market assuming have 3 lux up by then, then size 10-12 4 turner. Whilst building lib and market maintain 5fpt to regrow. This allows continued use of T as SF until this process complete, then grow T as well as excess food for growth of other cities as T can maintain 5fpt with mGame + iGrass leaving plains cow for Cop or Birka and lambs for Rey. This will give big settler boost as will have 2 4 turners operating concurrently for some of the time :cool: .
 
Rey is also an option for a 4tun SF by irrigating lambs and using fish avail on expansion after lib build. By mining iron mountain there would be 4 shields added on growth (less probably after waste). This would work as a 4.5-6.5 4 turner much as T does now. If this is done we dont need harbour or duct there.
Thus we have the option of converting Rey to 4 turner after building lib, using WV as 5fpt 4 turner between infrastructure and unit builds (thus shrinking down to no smaller than size 7 then building back up) and doing likewise with T. All 3 would only req 5fpt excess which T would get from mGame + i grass already avail, Rey from iLamb and fish (req irr of lambs) and WV would get from iCow leaving northern cow to be shared by Cop and Birka.
This requires very little change to curernt configuration, allows T and WV to be > size 7 with libs and only restricts groth of Rey until we have enough settlers, then it can build duct and harbour to grow.
How does this sound? :D
 
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