SGOTM 9 - Hagar

[Andronicus]

Had a close look at Trondheim's situation. It has excess production for 4turn SF, but I can only see 1 way to make a 4 turn warrior + SF.

This requires irrigating the game in addition to already irrigated cows
Also requires 4 mined BGs and a spare forest to use on growth (2 BGs already mined, 3rd & 4th being mined)
It can share BGs with Wonderville and goats with city 2SE, 1 S of Trondheim
I dont see how it can share the cow though.

Functions
turn 1 - size 4.6 use iCow, 3mBGs plus centre -> 4XS food, 8 shields plus 2 on growth producing warrior.
turn 2 - size 5 use iCow, 4mBGs plus centre -> 4XS food, 10 shields
turn 3 - size 5.4 use iCow, iGame, 3mBGs plus centre -> 6XS food (10), 8 shields plus 2 on growth (20)
turn 4 - size 6 use iCow, iGame, 4mBGs plus centre -> 6XS food, 10 shields producing settler

This requires micromanaging Trondheim every turn. These warriors can be used as MP and later disbanded to speed production in corrupt or shield poor towns.

Any suggestions for simpler way welcomed

Edit
OK I'll answer my own question - if we sacrificed shields in Trondheim by using mined grass and irrigating game, leaving T as 4turn SF only, then Wonderville could use cows half the time and have access to more BGs (extra 2 food and 10 shields per 4 turns for Wonderville)

 

[Andronicus]

Played 10 turns to 1750BC

The save
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm9/Hagar_SG009_BC1750_01.SAV

Main points
Have researched writing, starting CoL - trade options avail but I think we should wait (current trades avail listed below) so as not to endanger rep slingshot (downside is no prebuild avail for Pyramids - currently 20 turns to CoL)

India is in an inland sea. It is surrounded by mountains to W and S with 3 sites that appear to have been modded for city sites.

Monguls are very weak - anyone want an early war ? archer rush - if so we should get 2-3 cities to build rax and archers
(whoops - just checked map - they now have 2 cities and Karak. is now size 2)

T on 4 turn SF size 4.5-5.5. Currently irrigating game to allow 4 turn warr/SF size 4.6-6.6 as described above (also req 2 more BGs being mined) - when we have enough MP this can be switched to straight 4 turner sharing cow with WV

Carth warrior suspicious to north of Copenhagen (but Carth still prepared to trade gpt)

MPs needed in T and WV

Next city planned for western incense - will arrive next turn. Have been moving warrior before settler as there are barbs around


Turn log

Pre-turn
up lux to 40% to prevent riot in T, realise spare warrior in WV so move him to T and bring lux back to 30%
Over-run of 6 shields in T - mull over best use of tiles (see prev post)

Turn 1 2110BC
T settler -> settler
Copenhagen founded as planned north of WV -> warrior (initially curragh but later cities built quicker)
lux -> 10

Turn 2 2070BC
lux -> 20

Turn 3 2030BC
Reykjavik founded 2E of T -> curragh
Monguls appear weak - ? only 1 town (size 1), military weak compared us

Turn 4 1990BC
lux -> 30

Turn 5 1950BC
T settler -> settler
Decide to commence project irrigating game (hope no-one objects, but I am convinced this gives us best options)
lux -> 10
Barbs appearing

Turn 6 1910BC
lux -> 20

Turn 7 1870BC
Oslo founded in SE (moved from dot map position as that would have used BG - current pos unable to share game, but this not an issue IMO as more important for T to share cow with WV)

Turn 8 1830BC
Rey curragh (explores N, next from Oslo to explore S) -> warrior (then ? worker)
lux -> 30
hiring 1 scientist in Cop allows writing in 1 -> do so

IT
conscript warrior defeats barb -> promotes reg
Carth warrior approaching Cop from N
Writing -> CoL

Turn 9 1790BC
T settler -> settler
WV granary -> archer (for barb hunting - also would like some show of strength to discourage Carth - also ? amass force v Monguls - if so they should be vets)
commence irr northern cow

Turn 10 1750BC
lux -> 30

Trade options available for writing to gain 4 unknoown techs (CB, BW, Mas, Wh)
Carth wants min of writing +5gpt + 16g for all 4 techs
Mong want writing + 20g for all techs
Ott will give all 4 techs plus 3g for writing

Need MP in T and WV (one will be built in Cop next turn Rey in 2 turns and one returning alsmost at Cop - first need to ensure departure of Carth warrior

Settler en route to W incense (allows irrigating through it, less Delhi overlap than E one

Workers - S one about to irr game, then mine some BGs
- N one irrigating cows
- central one bringing irr to lambs
- need more

T - with SF need to ensure 5 food 7 shields and easy - just keep watch on lux
once game irr can share cow alt turns with WV
once mined 2 more BGs can use as 4turn warr/SF as described above post

WV - should grow rapidly with granary and soon to be irr N cow and lambs plus sharing S cow, may be worth building a worker or 2? - also if XS shields can use lake tiles for extra commerce.

Monguls have worker for sale and we have not est any embassies (insuf funds)


Roster
Abegweit
Istari Asuka
Khan Asparuh
Andronicus - just played
markh - away till Fri having swapped - play after Fri (either next or after juballs)
juballs 2001 - ? avail to play next
- suggest juballs play ahead if you are avail next 48 hours - just post got it, if not then markh should be on deck to play after he gets back

 

[Andronicus]

Dot map

Red dots are my suggestion for next cities
- incense settler en route, ivory should be secured soon
- one of cities on river should be FP city - ? northern one, building court first with assistance of forest chops

Not sure where to pos dye city yet - warrior from north oin way to explore area

Blue dots are choke cities

? Fill in other cities after

Pink dots are possible sites around India
? will India settle these, ? will Carth get down to meet India through these
? block every site around Delhi with cities and units - 39 tiles, incl perhaps 6 cities means allocating 33 units to block them (in rep this may be equiv of 66gpt) but ensures we have no active war with India until time of our choosing thus not affecting us with WW. Note we would not have to actively do this until they discover MM.

Edit - forgot to attach the screenie

 

[Khan_Asparuh]

Just don't forget that fresh water can't be brought to the deer. Not worth the time. That's why I backed off from the idea of combo factory.
I see no need to attack mongols. Archer vs Spear is too equal for Monarch. I'd say at least knights against spears, we should have no problems to get to this quite soon.

 

[Andronicus]

Just don't forget that fresh water can't be brought to the deer. Not worth the time. That's why I backed off from the idea of combo factory.

Already done - irrigated grass tile S of T - cow to north brings fresh water as far as T

 

[juballs2001]

i am available to play... i will work on it tonight and post in about 45 minutes

 

[juballs2001]

k guys here is my turnset.

0. (1750)
- all looks normal, time to connect some cities and expand!.
- Copenhagen builds warrior. switch to archer.

1. (1725)
- get 25 gold from barb camp.
- Reyjavik builds warrior, switch to archer.

2. (1700)
- Stockholm settled on Incense to North.
- Trondelheim builds settler
- Wonderville builds archer, switch to worker.

3. (1675)
- Settler set to 2 East of Copenhagen.
- Reg warriors defeats barb and is upgraded to veteran.

4. (1650)
- Wonderviller builds worker change to settler.
- Oslo builds curragh switch to archer.

5. (1625)
- warrior snuck through ottoman towns and now explores to the north.
- carthage warrior enters our land.

6. (1600)
- Move 2 units next to carthage warrior.
- Warrior victorious at barb camp.
- Trondelheim builds settler.

7. (1575)
- tell Hannibal to move or war.... he moves.
- send settler to desert river location.
- Mongols are building Oracle.

8. (1550)
- take over barb camp
- copenhagen and reyjavik build archers, both switch to settlers.

9. (1525)
- exploring....
- India expands, sperates trondelheim from stockholm more so.

10. (1500)
- more exploring, settler one turn away from river city.
- wonderville has one tax collector but is one turn from settler. would riot if no specialist.


NOTES:

- connect the main empire to the incense ASAP, we need the gold from luxury tax to science.
- our military is about a dozen solid units, i would think thats good.
- get the ivory soon.



and on to the next person.....

 

[Andronicus]

@ juballs
I dont mean to sound too critical but there are a number of micromanagement issues missed in your turnset.

Most importantly our SF is out of 4 turn synch. I stress T needs to be maintained at 5fpt to grow every other turn (unless we do a 4.6-6.6 SF sharing cows with 4fpt one turn, then 6fpt the next). There are plenty of shields to ensure settler builds. Currently only 3 food in box and settler will build in 2 turns at size 5 going back to size 3, instead of size 6.5 going back to size 4.5
The consequences of this are smaller size, less science, delay in next settler -> delay all future settlers.

Worker is roading irrigated grass. Why? This tile was irrigated for the sole reason of getting irrigation to the game. The benefit from irrigation will not be available until we are in rep, therefore this tile wont be used until then. I left the worker on the game ready for irrigating, now it needs to be moved back again wasting further worker moves. Once the game is irrigated then we have the options of 4 turn warrior settler factory or 4 turn SF sharing cow with WV depending on need for warrior MP.
Worker on olives is irrigating - cant use 3rd food in despotism - should be mined so can use 2 shields. (at this late stage probably not worth changing now as should be in republic in about 20 turns)
Also plains east of WV were irrigated to get irr to lambs for bonus food, perhaps I should have been more clear but the worker was intended to go to lambs next for irrigating - after reporting my turnset I described what plan for each worker was - I expect other players to make their own decisions as to what to do, but you gave no indication as to why you did differently.

Hiring specialist for controlling unhappiness. Using lux slider to control unhappiness (note my log - I adjusted lux slider nearly every turn) allows cities to use tiles for more growth, more production and more science. Growth is good, so is science. As it happens the specialist is not needed as WV has shield over-run and can use 2 lakes allowing extra commerce to provide the needed happiness as well as providing extra 2 food and extra science.
Cop is growing slowly with only 1 surplus food per turn whilst Birka has an unused grass - Birka can use the grass instead of the lake allowing Cop to use the lake resulting in 2fpt for both.

I apologise for the critisism - please tell me if you feel it is unwarranted, but its hard to learn from an error unless it is pointed out to you - I'm sure there will be opportunities for me to "learn" as well.
(edit - dont know if this is a clue to why you had problems or wheyther it just reflects my obsessiveness, but I note I played my turns in 108 min, you played your turns in 20 min)
On a positive note - good work with the barbs.


Some thoughts on current situation
Workers - we only have 4 with 7 cities - IMO we could do with 5 or 6 more ASAP. Birka could switch warrior -> worker in 6 turns, Cop from settler -> worker in 5 turns (using lake, then cow, then back to lake - forest on growth), and Rey can do worker in 3 in place of settler.

Tech - Carth will no longer even give us cheapest tech CB for writing - they must be about to discover it soon. I recommend selling it now whilst we still have the monopoly. Ottomen will give all 4 techs allowing us to get gold off Monguls and Carthage.

WV should look to start pyramids ASAP if we are agreed to go that direction - it needs to be got up in size and production.

T has a problem if we let it build settler due next turn. We need to then grow it back. It wastes least shields if T gives cow to WV for 1 turn and builds settler next turn (using forest) leaving 5 food in box at size 2.5, then uses cow and game at 5fpt to get back to size (? build archer in interim before next settler once back to size 4.5 - turn 1 cow + game 3sh + 2 on growth -> 5, turn 2 cow + game + BG 4sh -> 9, turn 3 cow + game + BG 4sh + 2 on growth -> 15, turn 4 cow + game + 2BG 5 sh -> archer) - of course mBG would give more but only 4 max.
Not sure if peole want to irrigate game now - will cost 5 worker turns to move and irrigate and in rep wont be necessary so only benefitting now for about 15 turns.

Next settler - I note Carth is settling near western choke - I recommend settling ivory ASAP - preferably with settler currently on way to river.

 

[juballs2001]

well i will take ur wors into consideration as my micromanagaement skills are not exactly up to par. in most my games.... mine green, irrigate anything else is how i play.
i see we are different here, so i will study the micromanagement closer for my next turn.
sorry for anything else, but my only strength truly is warmongering.

 

[IstariAsuka]

Abegweit - I apologize for mining the deer. You're right, it was a mistake. Luckily, it wasn't a very big mistake--but still, sorry.

Sorry for not including a turn log--I was pretty busy at the time of the post, and there really wasn't much to say. "Moved worker1 down one square, started mining" doesn't make for exciting reading.

However, as you've taken a look, I think you'll agree with me that the third worker wasn't a mistake. With the time it took to chop the forest (which didn't help get the factory up, as you mentioned), the 2 turns it took for that extra worker more than paid for themselves in getting the factory up faster.

Anyways, it's looking pretty good guys.

@ Juballs2001 -- for the MMing, there are two things that are most important at this point in the game.

1) Follow Andronicus earlier plan for Trondelheim--he layed out exactly what it needs to be doing each turn in the cycle, so just remember to check that every turn.

2) Don't assign any specialists to keep cities happy--especially not entertainers. Check the domestic screen every turn to see if the tax bar needs adjustment to keep everyone happy. Later we'll have lots of specialist usage going on in our science farm, but not right now. Right now we need every citizen being as productive as possible

Sorry I haven't been around in this thread the last few days, school this week has just been consuming. But I'm back now.

Roster
Abegweit
Istari Asuka
Khan Asparuh
Andronicus
juballs 2001 - Just played.
markh - Up.

 

[juballs2001]

2) Don't assign any specialists to keep cities happy--especially not entertainers. Check the domestic screen every turn to see if the tax bar needs adjustment to keep everyone happy. Later we'll have lots of specialist usage going on in our science farm, but not right now. Right now we need every citizen being as productive as possible

ok one thing... wonderville had 4 population. and 2 were unhappy and one happy, one neutral. so instead of slowing research or increasing lux. rate, i made one a tax colector. the settler that was set to grow in one turn, still grew in one turn.

so can someone explain to me why its a bad move if no production was lost, the lux slider remained the same as did the science and it prevented rioting.

just curious

 

[IstariAsuka]

ok one thing... wonderville had 4 population. and 2 were unhappy and one happy, one neutral. so instead of slowing research or increasing lux. rate, i made one a tax colector. the settler that was set to grow in one turn, still grew in one turn.

so can someone explain to me why its a bad move if no production was lost, the lux slider remained the same as did the science and it prevented rioting.

just curious

Well, although it didn't slow down the production of the settler, it did decrease the food output of the city by 2. This early in the game we want all the cities to expand as fast as possible.

 

[Andronicus]

ok one thing... wonderville had 4 population. and 2 were unhappy and one happy, one neutral. so instead of slowing research or increasing lux. rate, i made one a tax colector. the settler that was set to grow in one turn, still grew in one turn.

so can someone explain to me why its a bad move if no production was lost, the lux slider remained the same as did the science and it prevented rioting.

just curious

As Istari alluded to - growth (ie food excess) is vitally important in early game to allow for rapid expansion. Looking carefully at the MM could, in this instance, allow you to avoid increasing lux whilst working 4 tiles by assigning 2 to lake tiles with their increased commerce helping out the needed lux. This was because there is a surplus of shields so we dont need to work all the BGs. Whilst missing out on the 2 gold your tax produced, this way provides an extra 2 food in the box and an extra science beaker.
Growth was also the reason for getting irrigation to the lambs and the game.

I guess the take home message is growth is important esp in the early game

These things are relatively minor (although each little bit does add up). My main concern is whether you understand the workings of the settler factory - did my rambling on about various possibilities with irrigating the game and using size 4.6-6.6SF confuse you? or was it an oversight? If the latter then no problem you're not the first and wont be the last - just need more care next time.

edit : there are always exceptions to every rule, and in my turnlog you might notice I hired a scientist in Cop for 1 turn. This was not to save on lux spending, rather it enabled writing to be discovered 1 turn sooner as max science left us a couple of beakers short. It was still at the cost of food though and some might argue it was the wrong choice.

 

[Andronicus]

in most my games.... mine green, irrigate anything else is how i play.

In general a good approach, however this does not apply to bonus resources where in despotism an extra food may be gained by irrigating tiles which have already lost 1 food bonus (eg cow on grass, game on grass). Conversely irrigating wine on plains will give no extra food, but mining it will increase shields - so this is an example of mining brown. The desert olives give 2 food, 1 shield, irrigating will only benefit once out of despotism (or if you are agricultural and therefore get 2 food on irrigated desert) - again no biggee as we will hopefully soon be out of despotism.

 

[Abegweit]

However, as you've taken a look, I think you'll agree with me that the third worker wasn't a mistake. With the time it took to chop the forest (which didn't help get the factory up, as you mentioned), the 2 turns it took for that extra worker more than paid for themselves in getting the factory up faster.

You had it very nicely timed to get the factory up and running with no waste. Given how well it was set up it's quite possible that mining the deer was also the right move. I haven't put this thing through a spreadsheet to figure out whether a better sequence was available. And I won't since it is obviously true that your moves were solid and my criticisms were overboard. I apologise.

 

[Abegweit]

@juballs

Early speciallists are almost always wrong. In the beginning, growth is more important than commerce. On top of that, a scientist is more valuable than a tax collector.

 

[Abegweit]

That was NOT the inland sea I expected.

Given this, there is an important question to answer soon. Should we lock Gandhi in or let him out?

Given that we let him out, should we grab his isle (requires Berserks)?

My answer to the second question is... definitely.

Not sure about the first, though.

 

[markh]

Reporting back. I will take it for tonight or tomorrow morning. Still at work.

Wow, that is a nice map.

immediate Goals are : Getting the SF back to work
more workers
secure the ivory

juballs2001 : did you trade writing around ? It was not mentioned in your log.

 

[Andronicus]

juballs2001 : did you trade writing around ? It was not mentioned in your log.

I looked at the save and writing has not been traded around but Carthage's offers for it have come down dramatically (wont even give us CB the cheapest tech but will give all their gold - approx 60) At the end of my turnset they would give all 4 techs plus 16g for writing + 5gpt.
I believe this means they are far advanced in writing research and we should sell it immediately. Ottomen will give us all 4 techs (they have no money, whilst Cathage and Monguls have about 60g each).

 

[markh]

Just had a look at the save. We still have the monopoly on writing. Do we want to trade it for parity or do we keep it to ensure we are first to philosophy for the slingshot.