SGOTM 9 - Hagar

[juballs2001]

also, M.T in 1 turn.

 

[Andronicus]

basically west and southern carthage no longer exist they are ours.

On, on ... lets control our continent ... then the world ... then give some to Gandhi so we can go into space

 

[Andronicus]

Had a look at the save
Gandhi has no further techs - once we have established a base in Entremont I favour markh's suggestion of whittling down his unit count (zerks could leader fish a while - just need to be very sure dont destroy his last unit - perhaps we could wait until we have a few frigates and bombard to check he has sufficient numbers.
We have only 3 galleys - we will need more for OS invasion.
zerks are best used amphibiously - I note we have 7 - 6 could go in our current galleys and go round the north of the continent sequentially Utica, Hippo, (then as Mongul alliance expires in 6 turns) Kazan, then Otto towns.
Elite knights in Carth could take Theveste, but I favour cavs for Leptis Minor on hill and size 9 Leptis Magna - cavs will then rip through remaining Otto and Monguls - perhaps in next 10-12 turns.
I favour upgrading knights perhaps with exception of ones in Carthage (mostly elites) - inexpensive, far more powerful and faster. Currently have 12 - 5 in Carthage.
I suggest disbanding trebs - particuarly with cavs they cant keep up and delay time till we head for other continent.
What do we do if we get a leader - an army first, but cav or zerk - if we have galleons by time of attack on Entremont then a zerk army attacking would be awsome and no annoying GS counter attack. On the other hand a conventional cav army is pretty unbeatable provided dont let it get vulnerable. A leader once on other continent could be used to rush palace.

 

[Andronicus]

Suggestion for attack force
Pink (I swear it was pink - now purple sea route ) - 6 zerks in 3 galleys - may req topping up with spare taken cross country.(approx 13 turns till Istanbul)
Red - 5 knights currently in Carthage
Purple - cav wave through the centre (est 12 turns to Edrine)
Yellow - later cav (after dow Monguls)

edit - whoops - skipped Kazan tween Hippo and Bursa (but had included it in my calculations)

 

[juballs2001]

looks good.

we have the troops available. i think 10-15 serks and knights are ready in the northwest, and our production is fast due to our G.A so if we can crank out some Cavs we will have the continent under control in no time

 

[juballs2001]

0. (250AD)
- all looks good

1. (260AD)
- Lillehammer founded
- towns with trebs building switched to courts.
- troops S of carthage move into lillehammer to heal.

IBT- knights built

2. (270AD)
- Numudian killed near Lillehammer

IBT
- fortified pike killed by AC at Lillehammer

3. (280AD)
- Berserk disposes of AC

IBT
- Ottomans building Sistine

4. (290AD)
- Stack in position at Carthage

IBT
- Theology from G.Lib
- Trond. builds lib, switch to Rax as well as F.C

5. (300AD)
- Capture Carthage
- Metallurgy in 1 turn

IBT
- Switch sci to M.T, 5 turns
- SOZ obsolete

6. (310AD)
- Eleverum founded 4 SE of Carthage
- handful of single carth units killed (galleys, archers, M.I)
- Units healing preping for attack

IBT
- Rax complete, both cities switch to knights
- Entremont builds Sun Tzu

7. (320AD)
- Troops heal

IBT
- civs still building wonders and what not.

8. (330AD)
- troops in position at Sabratha

9. (340AD)
- Sabratha captured

10. (350AD)
- troops healing, ready for the final solution of the Carthagian race.
- M.T due in 1 turn.

 

[Andronicus]

Abegweit - on deck
IstariAsuka - waiting to hear when avail
Khan Asparuh
Andronicus
juballs 2001 - just played
markh - up

(hope I got it right this time )

 

[markh]

I will get to it tonight or tomorrow morning.

 

[markh]

Preturn : looks good

IBT : Carthage and Monguls sign peace
Military Tradition in -> education in 4 at 60% 32gpt

1) 360AD : some troop movements

IBT : Trondheim : cav -> cav
Oslo : cav -> cav
Birka : cav -> cav
Forbidden City : cav -> zerk

2) 370AD : we kill a NM at Theveste
disband trebs in Carthage

IBT : Carthage asks for an audience -> no thanks
Reykjavik : cav -> cav
Fauske : lib -> galley
WLTKD in Karasjok

3) 380AD : we kill another NM at Theveste
we take Utica killing 3 NMs and a longbow, maybe lose it next IBT as behind it there are 2 NMs and an MDI, but we have enough units there to take it back

IBT : an MDI attacks our eKnight and loses, the MDI at Utica pillages the Iron instead of attacking our new city

4) 390AD : we lose a cav at Theveste, the second cav takes the city giving us 4 new slaves
we lose a knight against an regular MDI in the open
a cav kills this MDI
knight kills an MDI and promotes elite
eZerk kills NM

IBT : Gandhi requests an audience, Sorry, I do not speak Indian and somehow there is no translator in whole Scandinavia
Education is in -> astronomy in 4 at 70% -13gpt
Stockholm : cav -> cav
Aarhus : cav -> cav
Molde : lib -> aqueduct
Karasjok : lib -> galley
Isabella starts Sistine's and Knight's Templar

5) 400AD : we sink a Carthaginian galley
we take Leptis Minor and one of our eKnights generates a leader which forms a cav army
cav kills NM and promotes elite
knight kills NM and promotes elite
knight kills NM and promotes elite
cashrush a galley at our east coast to ship zerks to take the Carthaginian city on the eastern island.

IBT : Wonderville : cav -> cav
Copenhagen : zerk -> zerk
Stavanger : cav -> cav
Forbidden City : zerk -> zerk
Karasjok : galley -> galley

6) 410AD : we take Hippo from the sea, two eZerks win
we kill a NM at Leptis Magna
we lose a knight at Leptis Magna

IBT : we can build the Heroic Epic and Military Academy
Trondheim : cav -> cav
Oslo : cav -> cav
Odense : courthouse -> galley
Celts complete Knights Templar in Alesia

7) 420AD : cav kills an NM at Leptis Magna
eCav kills an NM at Leptis Magna and we have another leader
form another cav army
knight kills the last NM in Leptis Magna promotes to elite and the last Carthaginian city on our continent fell
form another army

IBT : our golden age is over
Wonderville riots - damn, mm the other cities to prevent riots
Reykjavik : cav -> cav
Birka cav -> cav
The Mongols move units towards our border

8) 430AD : we take Rusicade killing two NMs and Carthage is gone
units healing and shifting for the Mongul-campaign

IBT : A Mongul swordsman enters our newly conquered territory. How nice if he would declare on us.
Vadso : lib -> galley

9) 440AD : ask Monguls to leave or declare and he declares being weak to us. Thank you
eKnight kills that cheeky Swordsman that entered our territory
We take Kazan losing a zerk
eKnight kills swordsman
cav kills pike at Almarikh and promotes elite
cav retreats against the second pike at Almarikh
cav loses against that pike
cav kills spear at Almarikh
cav kills pike promotes elite and takes Almarikh
cav kills spear
archer kills archer promotes veteran and gets us two slaves
we can lower lux to 10%

IBT : Astronomy is in -> Physics in 6 at -1gpt

10) 450AD : we take Karakorum killing 3 spears
we kill a pike at Ta Tu
eKnight kills swordsman
cav kills spear at Ta Tu and promotes elite
eCav kills spear at Ta Tu and takes the city

The Monguls have two cities left.

Here is little picture

 

[markh]

The roster :

Abegweit - up
IstariAsuka - waiting to hear when avail
Khan Asparuh - on deck
Andronicus
juballs 2001
markh - just played

 

[juballs2001]

well done markh!

way to take out Carthage and build up our army!

Abegweit, take out those pesky mongols, and then we can have the continent to ourselves once we cream the ottomans in a turn or 2

 

[juballs2001]

took a look at the save, we have to start cranking out caravels.

we have the continent in roughly 5-8 turns.

we could possibly sign a M.A with Celts to take out Ottomans and/or Americans.

We can take out Spain ourselves and plan for indias incarnation to the spaceship.

india is researching very slow and has sent 0 troops that i am aware of to our mainland... umm we need to discuss how this is gonna work if Gandhi dont send nobody at us.

 

[Andronicus]

Had a look at the save - sure is a sweet sight

I like those 2 cav armies - my thoughts had been to go for a zerk army for amphiboius attack but cav army gets 4 attacks v 2 for zerk army. We should be able to get magnetism in 8 - 10 turns allowing us to upgrade to galleons which will be able to make a direct ocean crossing (as well as being able to carry our armies). Should be ready for other continent invasion then.

Some thoughts
- do we attack Celts first with view to getting Entremont and preparing it to be our new capital (? rush palace with leader if we get one)
- do we get rop and abuse it? (we have no embassies OS as yet)
- we cannot have all current land plus Otto's plus Celts plus Spain's or we will go over dom limit. Suggest leave backward Spain until ready to hand over starting isle to Gandhi. Alternative would be just keep Barcelona and cow / fur city to its north for the gems and furs and demolish rest of Spain.
I would not worry about small islands initially - we can take these at our leisure with zerks and they may put us over dom limit.

We have options to boost science by use of scientists.
- Leptis Magna is wasting tiles with 0fpt and 1fpt - could be better used either 4 scientists for extra 11 sci/turn or 3 scientists plus use iFP for 4fpt growth and extra 8 sci/turn
- Mongul cities being starved down should have scientists not clowns - Ta Tu and Karaz -> extra 27 science
- if starving no point leaving a couple of tiles producing food as no diff if 1 food short or 20 - will still only starve 1 pop / turn. Kazan can therefore hire 4 scientists
On other hand cities which are no longer corrupt since FP built should no longer be hiring scientists ( Rigor, Alesund, Farsund & Batsfjord)
Tromso using mountain (OK whilst in GA and getting extra shield - now wasted so better to grow with fish)
Changing above would give physics in 4 turns @ -63gpt or in 5 @ -34gpt

I think we are building too many courts. Once move capital to Entremont, all home continent will be corrupt except FC. I dont see point in building structures which are taking 40 or more turns when it is likely they will be of little benefit then. The alternate approach would be to consider going for communism (an optional tech). I have no experience of commie in civ3 so leave that for others to comment on.

Suggest more workers as steam not far away and cannot have too many workers for RRing. At end of this extra workers can be shipped over to other continent to develop it and / or add to towns to boost growth.

Current military strong v all others
13 cav (6 in armies), 8 zerks, 8 knights (1* and 2 vets should be upgraded), 3 muskets, 2 pikes, 1 curr, 4 galleys. Also some rubbish - 3 archers and 2 warriors - trash should be disbanded as we are paying 14gpt unit upkeep.
Need 9 galleons to transport our current military OS. I think this is a priority. Currently 5 caravels under construction, also 3 zerks and 7 cavs should be built in next 10 turns so may want more galleons (after first wave will not require as many for reinforcements so probably half these could be disbanded to speed initial constructions).

 

[Andronicus]

india is researching very slow and has sent 0 troops that i am aware of to our mainland... umm we need to discuss how this is gonna work if Gandhi dont send nobody at us.

India has researched currency in past 10 turns. Still hasnt got writing nor poly. The problem I believe is that Gandhi has built so many units that his unit support costs means unable to pay for science.
We are going to have to prune his unit numbers with some zerk leader fishing. Question is do we do this right away or wait for arty to come in and bomb him from the mountain 2 tiles away (replacable parts is 7 techs away if go directly for it). This reduces zerk losses (Delhi is on a hill) and allows us to secure other continent first. Need to ensure we have enough zerks prior to rep parts as this obsoletes our UU - would then have to wait for marines

 

[markh]

Sorry, I did not mm at the end of my last turn. I was a little late and did not want to delay the game anymore.

Thought cav armies are better. Zerks have a small defense value, so they might be attacked when they go os. Cav-armies will be safe for quite a long time. Furthermore fast armies are very powerful.

Most of the courts were started before my turnset, so I sticked to it. I agree that we need more workers.

I wanted to conquer fast, so I did not upgrade all vet knights, but used them. The way was too long to the next rax. Of course now they should be upgraded.

On India I am not sure what to do. I do not have the map in mind whether a caravel/galleon can close in, let the zerks attack and retreat back in safe waters. If we have units ending the turn in India's waters we will get ww. Isn't it ? I would tend to let him go soon. Our continent is secured and the next leader should be saved to build our new capitol in one turn. Gandhi will need much time to build up his core anyway and he still has not researched writing, so maybe we should begin reducing his units now.

 

[Andronicus]

Thought cav armies are better. Zerks have a small defense value, so they might be attacked when they go os. Cav-armies will be safe for quite a long time. Furthermore fast armies are very powerful.

Agree - your choice was the correct one

Most of the courts were started before my turnset, so I sticked to it. I agree that we need more workers.

No problem so long as someone makes the change before too late

I wanted to conquer fast, so I did not upgrade all vet knights, but used them. The way was too long to the next rax. Of course now they should be upgraded.

Agree

On India I am not sure what to do. I do not have the map in mind whether a caravel/galleon can close in, let the zerks attack and retreat back in safe waters. If we have units ending the turn in India's waters we will get ww. Isn't it ? I would tend to let him go soon. Our continent is secured and the next leader should be saved to build our new capitol in one turn. Gandhi will need much time to build up his core anyway and he still has not researched writing, so maybe we should begin reducing his units now.

Cavs or galleons can reach from Stockholm (incense city) - 1 coast S of Stockholm in our territory -> move into coast adj Delhi, attack, then move back out with option of dropping off damaged zrerks in Stockholm's rax for healing

 

[Andronicus]

Current military strong v all others
13 cav (6 in armies), 8 zerks, 8 knights (1* and 2 vets should be upgraded), 3 muskets, 2 pikes, 1 curr, 4 galleys. Also some rubbish - 3 archers and 2 warriors - trash should be disbanded as we are paying 14gpt unit upkeep.
Need 9 galleons to transport our current military OS. I think this is a priority. Currently 5 caravels under construction, also 3 zerks and 7 cavs should be built in next 10 turns so may want more galleons (after first wave will not require as many for reinforcements so probably half these could be disbanded to speed initial constructions).

Had a rethink about this.
I now favour attacking Spain first with maybe 6-8 galleons worth of units (ie dont wait for further galleons to be built. Will take at least 10 turns to research galleons and upgrade and position for transportation - meanwhile ridding our continent of Monguls and Ottomen (if war over earlier as I suspect perhaps a caravel or 2 of cavs could cross before returning for upgrading and transport of main force). Land on Spain's W coast from old Carthage with cav armies and cavs and 1 load of zerks head east from Mongolia to take Spanish island ( leave no Spain remaining so no risk of flips). Attack Spain with rop abuse after also signing rop with Celts.
Should dispose of Spain in a few turns - keeping Barcelona and city to its north with furs for their lux, raze rest.
By time this is done and units healed galleons should have returned with second wave of units - these can be dropped off in Celt area, then transport units from Spain - position for rop abuse - then no more Celts and can dev our new core.
Hopefully we generate a leader in all this - he should be saved for rushing palace in Entremont.
We can then concentrate on zerks (probably need about a doz) to prune back India so Gandhi raises his science - once we have Entremont the sooner Gandhi gets MM the better.

Sounds too easy? Have I missed something important? Any comments?

 

[markh]

Cavs or galleons can reach from Stockholm (incense city) - 1 coast S of Stockholm in our territory -> move into coast adj Delhi, attack, then move back out with option of dropping off damaged zrerks in Stockholm's rax for healing

That is perfect, so we should think of the point of time we start it.

 

[markh]

Had a rethink about this.
I now favour attacking Spain first with maybe 6-8 galleons worth of units (ie dont wait for further galleons to be built. Will take at least 10 turns to research galleons and upgrade and position for transportation - meanwhile ridding our continent of Monguls and Ottomen (if war over earlier as I suspect perhaps a caravel or 2 of cavs could cross before returning for upgrading and transport of main force). Land on Spain's W coast from old Carthage with cav armies and cavs and 1 load of zerks head east from Mongolia to take Spanish island ( leave no Spain remaining so no risk of flips). Attack Spain with rop abuse after also signing rop with Celts.
Should dispose of Spain in a few turns - keeping Barcelona and city to its north with furs for their lux, raze rest.
By time this is done and units healed galleons should have returned with second wave of units - these can be dropped off in Celt area, then transport units from Spain - position for rop abuse - then no more Celts and can dev our new core.
Hopefully we generate a leader in all this - he should be saved for rushing palace in Entremont.
We can then concentrate on zerks (probably need about a doz) to prune back India so Gandhi raises his science - once we have Entremont the sooner Gandhi gets MM the better.

Sounds too easy? Have I missed something important? Any comments?

Sounds good. Even if we do not get a new leader we can disband the armies in Entremont. They will get us the palace fast. If that is needed start the military academy in another city before disbanding the armies to allow us building new armies.

 

[Andronicus]

Sounds good. Even if we do not get a new leader we can disband the armies in Entremont. They will get us the palace fast. If that is needed start the military academy in another city before disbanding the armies to allow us building new armies.

Other option for leader is to go leader fishing in Delhi