SGOTM 9 - jeffelammar

[CKS]

If we can get any modern techs out of the Celts, that will be a big help. However, allowing them to have modern weapons makes me a little anxious. We'll have to make sure that we stay strong militarily compared to them. I think we can do this by building military units in our core cities, since we won't have much infrastructure to build. If we are lucky we'll be able to finish researching before they get very far, and then we can wipe them out.

I don't think that we'll have Big Picture problems; any time you learn the tech that you are researching you get the message. Revolting to republic after learning it in trade or from the GL doesn't work (unless it was the tech you were currently researching) - the computer notifies you that you learned a tech, but it doesn't ask you what to research now, which is when you get the Big Picture opportunity, because you are still researching something.

 

[pindicator]

I'm quite nervous about Brennus myself, so I'll pump the infantry along during my (short) turnset. But as long as we have the superior tech I'll keep along with that.

As for letting Ghandi out, I want to spend as few turns as possible waiting for him to come take our cities. He is going to sit and flounder around at first, building up troops. Ideally we want him to be have enough troops to come out after us as we are ready to give him the continent, or even before then, as he will take time to take over our cities with (at best) 2-movement units.
I know a giving away a home continent to a defunct AI civ is not something we all practice in our spare time, so we're operating on guesswork here. But what of the idea of letting Ghandi expand through our cities as we take Brenus'?

Stockholm currently reads out 63spt (and 8 of those are corrupted) -- I don't think Hoover is going to put it near 100. For that matter, why not? I count 30 base shields, and factory + IW = +150%... but 63 is +110% Am I forgetting something about Civ3 calculations? (Civ4 is taking more and more time away from ditto3.)

Trying to recap what I should do during my 5 turns so I don't mess it up (too much ):

1) Military -- we're all uneasy here, so let's get that up to a tolerable level
2) After Mass Production, set research to Motorized Transport at 4-turn tech rate.
3) Continue to settle Spain as per that dotmap that's lost back oh-so-many pages back
4) Build up infra (esp markets) via (and for additional) drafting/disbanding (which is something I've never done before to tell the truth).

Anything else important? I feel I'm one of the weaker players on this team and want to make sure i get this right.

 

[TimBentley]

Stockholm currently reads out 63spt (and 8 of those are corrupted) -- I don't think Hoover is going to put it near 100. For that matter, why not? I count 30 base shields, and factory + IW = +150%... but 63 is +110% Am I forgetting something about Civ3 calculations? (Civ4 is taking more and more time away from ditto3.)

55spt is 250% of 22spt. Corrupted shields don't get multiplied.

As far as I can tell, with Trondheim getting to 42spt and Channel City to 37spt (I don't think there's a way to get them more shields other than what the other is using) would finish ToE in 7 turns and Internet in 8 turns. Mining should make the Internet finish in 7. 49spt would be needed for ToE in 6; 47spt would be needed for Internet in 6.

Actually, ToE can finish in 6 by stealing two tiles from Channel City. I'd start with Trondheim at 51spt, stealing those two tiles. In turn 1, I'd mine one tile and give a tile back to Channel City. This gives two shields extra (51+49+49+66+66+66=347, 345 shields needed); more (i.e., mine another tile) to safeguard against pollution could be useful. By mining some tiles by Channel City it could get Internet done in 7 (without mining: 33+42+42+50+50+50+50=317, 329 shields needed). Of course this assumes the Celts research flight on time; I'm a bit anxious about that.

 

[Paul#42]

I do not think the Celts will be too much a help researching Modern Times techs for us. We will need all their cash to keep up our own focused research. So my opinion: Keep Brennus healthy, friendly and backward. Dow him (better let him dow!) when India is getting our core and they are about to meet each other. He won't attack India but would buy their techs.

We should gift a city to India immediately after reaching Modern Times. They will need much time to produce units.

I want to repeat that I am convinced that we need espionage before we gift India to monitor their progress! Maybe we should research it right after reaching Modern Times.

When India is about to take the first city on their own, direct him to our corrupt areas. We still need our core cities and capital intact. In corrupt areas he can build more units which will speed up his pace later. But we need to keep him isolated from Brennus (tough job!) and from Ottomans as they should still be at war.

 

[Paul#42]

But Otto and Brennus seem to have met, so it'll make Brennus a lousy trading partner even if he does learn a tech.

Are you serious?!? How could that happen?

That would be a major setback!

 

[jeffelammar]

I want to repeat that I am convinced that we need espionage before we gift India to monitor their progress! Maybe we should research it right after reaching Modern Times.

I agree that we want espionage. I don't think we should research it till we are ready to perform the elevator.

I think Espionage is a prime candidate for the Celts. They hopefully will research it in the not too distant future. (More likely if we keep them backwards)

 

[CKS]

Do we want to learn all the necessary spaceship techs before letting Ghandi take the GL, or do we want to let him research the last one or two for himself while he gets around to building the Apollo program? If we could trust him to learn the last techs, we could knock a few turns off of the Apollo date. Since it sounds like it will take him a long time to build it, he would have time to research some techs. However, he might not research the ones we want him to. My inclination is to play it safe and leave as little to Ghandi as possible. He won't be a quick researcher because of lack of science infrastructure. I don't want to be sitting around with him having built Apollo but not having researched the necessary last tech for the spaceship.

I'm for gifting India a city as soon as we reach modern times.

I think that we should research espionage after learning the last spaceship tech, unless the Celts learn it for us. We don't really need to monitor Ghandi until he reaches the modern era, so let's not waste 4 turns before we let him out.

 

[denyd]

Once the Celts complete Fligtht, they'll likely go for Espionage & Amphib War, so we should be able to get it from them without having to research it ourselves. As long as we keep the Celts broke, we won't have to worry about him stealing any techs from us.

As for Gandhi, he's likely to reseach one of the optional IA techs and will only be able to support 50 a turn rate, so I agree with making sure he gets all the needed techs at one time.

I was thinking that we should probably do a little more research after Gandhi has ridden the elevator to get us to where we can build SDI to reduce the chance he'll start throwing nukes at us.

I agree with Pindicator's to do list for his turns.

 

[jeffelammar]

Anything else important? I feel I'm one of the weaker players on this team and want to make sure i get this right.

I wouldn't say that. In looking at your turnset's I think you are doing a fine job. Anyway, we're a team, and we win and lose as a team.

Your list looks fine.

 

[Jove]

I'm a little worried about completing ToE in 6. Remember, we'll get Hoover's in 5, which will speed up Trondheim's production. If Brennus doesn't learn Flight, we might be forced to finish it before the MA. It wouldn't exactly ruin us, but it would be about a 4000 beaker mistake.
At this point I'm leaning toward assuming we'll have to learn Flight on our own, and planning the ToE accordingly. What do you all think?

@Pindicator: the list looks good. Do you have any questions about builds or drafting? I must admit I haven't figured out how to optimize drafting/dibanding, but I've had a lot of practice on my 100k quests...

 

[jeffelammar]

I'm a little worried about completing ToE in 6. Remember, we'll get Hoover's in 5, which will speed up Trondheim's production. If Brennus doesn't learn Flight, we might be forced to finish it before the MA. It wouldn't exactly ruin us, but it would be about a 4000 beaker mistake..

I think we could drop 4 turns off the ToE build if we have to. I'll take a look tonight, but It seems like we could starve a little in Trondheim if we need to to get the production down low enough.

 

[denyd]

Denyd:
Switch Trondheim to coal plant – Switch Stavanger to Theory of Evolution and slow down the builds in both cities by hiring bankers

Jove:
ToE in 13, but hopefully it'll speed up just enough with Hoover's. But CC will speed up too... give some of CC's shields to Trondheim... ToE in 11.

I had slowed it done, but Jove sped it up again. We should probably slow it down again until we're sure we can get Flight from the Celts in time.

 

[pindicator]

We definitely could drop time off of ToE -- easily can be put down to 9 just by putting a sea tile onto a mountain -- but I don't think we want to. I really don't think Brennus is going to get us Flight in time, so we should be ready to get it on our own.

As for Espionage, say we do have to research Flight on our own. Do we then gift it to Brennus pushing him along towards Espionage?

As far as drafting questions, I just don't have the familiarity with it. Are there any specific build orders in infra for cities that I should stick? Are there any rules specifically about drafting that I am not recalling (aside from the unhappiness)?

Sounds like some people still want to look some things over, so I will wait til later tonight.

 

[jeffelammar]

@pindicator - I think you should just go for it. Don't wait on us.

I would say no more free gifts for Brennus. If he gets us espionage, then great, otherwise we can research it after we've elevated Ghandi.

I'd also go ahead and accelerate ToE for the next few turns. We can always slow it down enough by not working any production squares durning the next turn set. (And we'll be better timed if we do get lucky and get flight from Brennus)

 

[denyd]

Warning: The following statement has been retrieved from a dark corner of my brain and is subject to errors:

I seem to remember something about when disbanding you get 1 shield for each 6 of the original build item. With Recycling I seem to remember it drops to 1 for each 4. So build things where the shield cost is divisible by 6 to save shield loss.

 

[Jove]

@Denyd: I thought that Ecology shield savings only applied to buildings you sold, not disbanded units. But... I guess I don't really know!
And yeah, I'm pretty much to blame for speeding up ToE again. I guess I was optimistic about Brennus' research at the beginning of my turns, and have since changed my mind. Arrrr

@Pindicator: I really play it by ear where build orders are concerned. I try to get a solid base of draft cities (market + aquaduct if needed), then pretty much eyeball it to see where the most benefit can be gained with the shields. For this game, still more population growth seems to be key, and then courts and libraries. I'd probably save universities for when there isn't anything cheaper to build. And then, a few civil engineers in the right places can help alot too!
As far as rules go, I don't think you can break them with drafting and disbanding. Join a worker if you really want to draft somewhere. Disband as many conscripts as you like. It's all fair.

 

[pindicator]

The save.

I sped up ToE to start things off, shuffling tiles about to get it down to 7 turns.
I also sped up the Palace pre-build in Channel city to 12 turns.

I also swapped Stockholm to a Police Station. The thinking there is that the return on just one or two shields would end up being 4 or 8 more.

1) 1255AD
Remember that Hoover is completing in two turns, so I slow the wonders back down a little.
Settle New Svolvaer and New Haugesund with settlers on hand.
Some draft/disbanding for markets

IT - Learn Mass Production. Set to Motorized Transportation

2) 1260AD
Motorized already due in four, so I fire some scientists (keeping a few over strict 4-turn)

IT -

Well ain't that something

Hoover Dam completes!
2 - turn Infantry coming up in Stravanger now.
Stockholm looks like it's up to 72spt.
We get the message for Wall Street

3) 1265
With Hoover in ToE is due in 5, Palace pre-build due in 7
With some MM I set up 1-turn Infantry out of Stockholm
Also, 2-turn Infantry in Stravanger

4) 1270
First shipment of infantry hits Spain

5) 1275
I just looked, and we haven't forested Spain yet. Since I have so many workers -- drafted some, but didn't go too wild on it -- I'm going to start the forestry program up there. Hack and slash two trees.

Shipment of infantry to America
Shipment of foresters to Spain

Notes-
Motorized Transport due on the IBT. I have it MMed to hit pretty much exact on the beakers, so if you want some breathing room "just in case" next person needs to hire an extra scientist or three.
No Flight from Brennus Here are some trades to think about:

We give electricity for Wool, Wines, WM, 108gpt, and 17g (figuring the happiness will help alleviate the drafting)
We give Ivory, Spice, Dyes, and Fur for 86gpt
MAX gpt Brennus will currently part with is 109.

Settler is in New Stravanger. I didn't know what to do with him, so I'm leaving him behind.
Madrid is maxed out on shields: currently with courthouse and Courthouse and Police Station it gets 8spt -- also has some engineers helping along its factory.

ToE in Trondheim has been slowed down to complete in 5 turns, to compensate for Brennus. Although I suppose it is possible he could come up with Flight in the next turn or two, so we can always swap tiles back around.
Likewise, Channel City's pre-build is now due in 7 turns (and I got Aarhus to 2-turn infantry by taking some of the tiles). If you do swap tiles, be sure we are still set for Motor next turn.

There are a lot of tiles to chop in Spain for forestry. Here's an image from CivAssistII with all the shield-bonus tiles highlighted in red:

Oh, all your workers on the homeland are fortified north of Aarhus, just in case next person wanted to do more drafting than I had. I'd ship some of them to Spain, though, to help plant and chop trees.

 

[TimBentley]

Got it. I expect to play today.

 

[TimBentley]

It looks like the Celts would research the middle age optional techs and several industrial age techs before espionage. I'll take a look at the economy to see if the electricity deal is advantageous. We can rebuild Wall Street after the city with it is captured, so I'll do that.

 

[TimBentley]

1275(0): Speed Trondheim and Channel City a little in case Celts come through
do some MM, build switches, leave a couple extra scientists
switch Stockholm to Wall Street
sell electricity to Celts for wool, wines, 109gpt, 1g

IBT: learn MT, start on flight

1280(1): barely have flight in 4, but losing 109gpt with 205g
switch some specialists to do it

1285(2): zzz

1290(3): Stavanger is at 50spt

IBT: Stockholm builds Wall Street

1295(4): zzz

IBT: learn flight
gift Ottomans into modern age, they get fission
Trondheim builds ToE
learn computers and miniturization
switch CC to Internet (which is built)

1300(5): sell computers and communism to Ottomans for fission
Stockholm is at 100spt

Notes: we could get SETI in Channel City in less than 25 turns
what technology do we want next? (ecology, rocketry, and nuclear power (with specialist rearrangement) can be researched in 5 turns)
Here are the beaker prices: ecology-6933, rocketry-6400, nuclear power-7466, synthetic fibers-7466, space flight-8000, superconductor-8000, satellites-6933, laser-7466, robotics-8533
There could be cities where firing scientists increases commerce

Here is the save.