SGOTM 9 - jeffelammar

[Paul#42]

Such ideas typically fall into one of two categories, either of massive brilliance or of complete insanity.

Yes, that is insane - or brilliant. I can't tell because - I never played in the modern ages. I welcome dreams like these and would like to have an own thread for these I hope on weekend I can get myself into a similar mood

But it seems to me that it is better to speed research early than late - but the amount of 5 expensive techs in a row (or 7 with TOE) I did never encounter in MA or IA. So I have to trust You (and other MT-experienced guys) in that category.

Problems could be to not use our powerful Berserks before - that is a little against my nature

Another (unsolvable?) problem should be to spare TOE for Modern Times. I don't think we can prevent other civs from building it for so long. Plus it could be also used to get the two expensive techs in IA (Atomic Theory and Electronics) as usual as it was designed for...

Solvable should be controlling the India GA. One day (if they are too fast) we could get them down to size 2 by blocking all tiles. But We would gain some WW by that...

 

[Paul#42]

short term:
harbor costs 30 shields, so we have nothing to shortrush to 40. I guess we should build library (36 left) in 3 turns at 12spt, than get 10s from chopping and rush temple immediatly.

rushing the temple maybe in turn 4 via Big Picture if Trondheim or Bergen finished something in that turn and it is no exploit (which I don't think)

 

[TimBentley]

750(0): switch Birka, Aarhus to libraries
switch Stavanger, Odense to worker
switch Hareid to warrior
switch Channel City to library
shortrush cat in Bergen, switch back to settler, switch forest to coast
move archer N

IBT: Istanbul warrior takes out barb camp
Stavanger worker->lib
Madrid builds the Pyramids

730(1): Mongols founded Hovd near our archer

IBT: Bergen settler->settler(after this 5-turn settler, it should be ready for a 5-7 4 turn factory (if that were possible...))
Stockholm worker->worker
Celts, America start ToA

710(2): see Ottoman borders in the NW, not much room left

IBT: Trondheim settler->settler
Channel City library->temple

690(3): found Molde near Delhi
found Alesund in NW
shortrush in Channel City with worker and harbor
see possible sea route in NE

670(4): science to 30%

IBT: Channel City temple->Great Library
Oslo archer->archer

650(5): science to 100%
found Bodo in NE
Celts are revolting to monarchy, sell them philosophy for 103g
Carthage has construction

IBT: learn currency, start on CoL in 5 (should finish in 4) (those two should be enough for construction)
Reykjavik galley->library
Odense worker->lib

630(6): Ottomans are revolting to monarchy
just realized I should use that fresh lake by Trondheim instead of the grassland

IBT: Trondheim settler->settler
Stockholm worker->worker

610(7): Bergen can't grow to size 7, maximize commerce there
Mongols are revolting to monarchy
science to 90%

IBT: Carthage asks to renew MA, I decline
Bergen settler->settler
Hareid warrior->worker

590(8): found Karasjok

570(9): found Tromso

IBT: learn CoL
sell writing to Spain for HBR, 45g
CoL is now worth about 16g to Carthage; buy construction for currency, CoL, 209g
Oslo archer->archer
Celts start Hanging Gardens

550(10): looks like that sea leads nowhere
gift Ottomans to middle ages, they get feudalism (so buying it for a tech shouldn't be too much of a problem)
research set to engineering, could be changed

Notes: several of the current builds were placeholders, feel free to change them
Great Library currently due in 29 (just realized we'll want a mined desert there)
I'd suggest researching engineering, invention, monotheism, theology, etc. to astronomy (if we went with denyd's plan, I'd go straight for monotheism)
There might be a chance of the other continent researching monotheism if we gift them into the middle ages
there's a galley with two settlers to offshore island (next settlers I'd suggest sending to hills near India)

Here is the save.

 

[Paul#42]

Okay, before I start playing I'd like a discussion on some topics:

Golden Age
I'd like our GA soon to speed up our development and take over our continent.

I would also hope to get a leader in that process which could build FP. Of course that could also be done with knights and swords.

I think after owning our continent we can concentrate on building libs and unis to optimize research for IA. Looking at the estimated 14 turns to Engineering (at 100%!) I'd rather accelerate that early.

Research
I'd research to Berserks and then beeline to Physics and ToG to get those yummy wonders also in Channel City. They would come in right after GLib and University.
Anyone rather aiming for MT?

foreign affairs
Gifting the civs on the other continent to MA (if they are not there already)? Maybe one researches Mono for us and we get it for Invention?

 

[CKS]

I don't have an opinion on when we should have the golden age. I am in favor of taking over our continent soon. If we decide on an early GA, then we should research to invention first; if we decide to hold off on the GA, then we should head straight for education. Either way, we want to get to astronomy and theory of gravity ASAP. I'm in no hurry to get military tradition.

We need libraries and universities in non-corrupt cities quickly. Research is more important that anything else at this point in the game.

I'm in favor of gifting far-away civs into the MA. We may not get anything from them, but it is worth trying.

I agree that the next batch of settlers should go to the hills around India.

 

[jeffelammar]

Sorry I've been so quiet this week. Things are nuts at home and at work.

I've been reading and keeping track though.

Opinions:
1. Progress on the main continent looks good.
2. I agree that the next 3 settlers should snag the 3 Indian confinement zone hills.
3. I agree that we should gift the far away civs up so we can trade with them.
4. Golden Age: Since we definately want to terrorize the world with our Berserks, I think we should head for Invention then Education. Then Astronomy for Copernicus in Channel City.
5. It will soon be time to start thinking about where we want india to put their core. I think our best bet will be to build it on the other continent, but we want to keep these things in mind as we go.

 

[denyd]

I've got no problem with an early Golden Age, but I'm thinking we can probably take our entire continent using just knights, so why use the Berserks for land based combat. The Mongols & English don't look like they'll put up much resistance. After we settled an off continent island we'll have a spot for the Ottomans and we should be able to run him and Carthage over with cavalry and leftover knights. Let's get Osman confined before he has Siphai to play with. Then we can concentrate on taking out an off island tribe as a spot for our end of game empire.

I agree it's time to isolate the Indians. Once the Ottoman's have met the Indians we'll have trouble keeping Gandhi from advancing to Education.

I kind of agree with our wonder snagging plan, but see nothing wrong with having the Celts get them to help their research along. If we do go with an early GA, I'd like to have Education known before we trigger it to use the period to build universitities & research through Astronomy & Banking and the bottom path with luck we'll be able to add 4 techs during our GA.

 

[Jove]

Nice turns TimBentley!
-This may be controversial, but I don't think we should research Military Tradition at all this game. It'll be simply that many turns taken away from our finish date. Berserks attack at 7 anyway, we shouldn't need Cav if we're careful.
-I like Denyd's plan for the ToE. I've taken this approach in some GOTM games. It can be possible to research all the other techs except Atomic Theory and Electronics in 4 turns while we build up our science capacity. Then, hopefully, AT and Electronics in 4, then the ToE at the dawn of the modern age to snag what amounts to 10,000+ free beakers. There's no doubt we get the most bang for our buck, and the way things are going, no way the AI are going to be a threat by this point. btw, I like the late Indian GA idea very much as well!
- We may want to think about another granary in the floodplains area. I'm looking long-term, but seriously, there's almost no limit on how big a total population we'll want.
-Jeff: You mentioned building India's core on the other continent. I don't see how we'll be able to get them over there. Can you explain please?
-Building the FP in the Mongol Capitol might be too far away to make it useful. There's a great article on this, I'll try to find it for you all soon.
- Invention or education first? Hmmm, we don't have a lot of libraries in the first place, so universities won't be an option for awhile. I think if we go Invention first, the AI is more likely to research Monotheism for us... I agree we should hold off a GA until at least after Education. Hmmm.... that's a good one....

 

[Paul#42]

I will get it and play this evening, sorry for the little delay due to RL.

But I think we are at a point for more discussion anyway. At least I was missing some more discussion between the last turnsets. However I like progress so far.

More detailed thoughts later (in maybe 8 hours)

Just one minor point: I think when it's time to enlighten India we should give them the whole continent and move to one of the islands to east. That island we can defend easily (with slaves on the coast) against India (if necessary) and just watch them wave their towel...

 

[Paul#42]

Got it. Will play tonight.

[room for initial thougts]

 

[Jove]

OK folks, I just wanted to spread some good cheer among Team Jeffelamar. I checked out the comparison graphs in the Mainenence thread, and up to this point at least, we are the cultural leaders! This can only mean that we were the first to build the Colossus of all the teams. Being a science game, this means we're still very very much in this one!

Extra ideas: Let's claim the rest of the floodplains.
-Let's fill in the ring around India. A galley would help here. Is that curragh still around? With a harbor we could upgrade it.
-We'll want Copernicus' and Newton's. Maybe too early to think about, maybe not.
-I'm all for fighting with Mongolia, but whatever we do, let's not sacrifice growth or science. Now that our core is filling in, it looks like a good time to start stuffing workers into smaller, productive cities. Full development of Stockholm can make it a nice worker factory. I actually think this would be a nice FP location too, the other FP town could go on worker duty...
I guess that's about it for now. Good luck!

 

[Paul#42]

OK folks, I just wanted to spread some good cheer among Team Jeffelamar. I checked out the comparison graphs in the Mainenence thread, and up to this point at least, we are the cultural leaders! This can only mean that we were the first to build the Colossus of all the teams. Being a science game, this means we're still very very much in this one!

Yes I saw that, too. And we are doing well in expansion. But this time it is hard to compare by graphs.

Extra ideas: Let's claim the rest of the floodplains.

Do you request another town there or culture?

-Let's fill in the ring around India. A galley would help here. Is that curragh still around? With a harbor we could upgrade it.

One curragh just sunk in the ocean But good idea about the galley to settle the rocks. One settler is on his way, but the other two could go by ferry.

-We'll want Copernicus' and Newton's. Maybe too early to think about, maybe not.
-I'm all for fighting with Mongolia, but whatever we do, let's not sacrifice growth or science. Now that our core is filling in, it looks like a good time to start stuffing workers into smaller, productive cities. Full development of Stockholm can make it a nice worker factory. I actually think this would be a nice FP location too, the other FP town could go on worker duty...
I guess that's about it for now. Good luck!

Actually I will make Bergen a worker-factory for some time - at least for my turnset. Rather 2-turn-worker- than 5-turn-settler-factory. We still need many more workers.
Which is "the other FP town"?

And that's the first point: In turn 2, Mongols offer two workers (and 8g). I'd like to join them to Channel City. They would offer them for peace and Maths.

Con:
- We would lose the war happiness (we still have it, don't we?).

Pros:
- Mongols would stay under pressure because Ottomans and Carthaginians just allied against them.
- If I make peace without involving other deals, we can cancel that any time without getting a rep hit (see Microbe's thread on reputation) which I tested. Maybe we would need to trade CoL as well in that case.
- We could develop our army a little more, promote some archers against barbs maybe.

So in my opinion it's down to two workers for a little unhappiness (maybe some beakers) which we would lose anyway (when?).

I will continue at turn 2 in 12 hours - lots of time to debate... What do you guys think?

 

[Jove]

By 'other FP town' I meant floodplains. So, Stavanger. Confusing, sorry.
I think one more town for now, in the desert on the coast N of Stockholm, is a good idea. 2 more fp's immediately. Another city to grab the rest, or culture? I'll leave it open.

On peace- I don't think we get war happiness in Monarchy, so that's not an issue. If the treaty with Carthage is still active, it'll trash our reputation on our island. I think that's a bad idea- we're going to want to trade with Otto's for their free techs in this age, the IA, and at the beginning of the MA. They'll never forget if we hurt our rep, which will mean unfavorable trading terms later. Also, it'll make the others more likely to attack us, and we want to choose the time to take those guys out I think.

2 free workers is attractive, but I just don't think it's worth it. Wait 'til the treaty expires, then use your best judgement.

On the subject of workers, I was just checking out CivAssist. Some tech costs:
Invention: 1173
Theology: 1066
Gunpowder: 1280
Astronomy: 1493
Chivalry: let's skip it.
If we can get even 10 science specialists, that's +30bpt. In 4 turns, 120 beakers, etc. To hit 4-turn research now, we need to hit 250+bpt. I think you can see the benefit. To go completely nuts on workers can only help us- chopping all that jungle will mean more grass tiles to support more... specialists! It may be a little early to implement this on a large scale now as our cities are mostly productive, but not too early to start planning for it. But even gaining 1 turn per tech, for the next 20 techs, well, you get it.

And, have we traded Otto's into the MA yet? They'll get some free tech...

EDIT: Speaking of Otto, we'll want to exile him sometime. If we pick an island, we can set it up in such a way that we have culture established there before we hand anything over to him. This would mean his new palace won't expand to take our land tiles, leaving him with 1-3 for himself.

 

[Paul#42]

On peace- I don't think we get war happiness in Monarchy, so that's not an issue. If the treaty with Carthage is still active, it'll trash our reputation on our island. I think that's a bad idea- [...]
2 free workers is attractive, but I just don't think it's worth it. Wait 'til the treaty expires, then use your best judgement.

I'd never trash our reputation by breaking an MP - it was committed in Jove's turn 5 (1100 BC), endured through pindicators' turnset and ran out in TimBentley's turn 4 (or 5 IBT). So there's nothing left to be broken.
And I think we DO get war happiness - counting citizens, luxes and MPs I think we still have - but I may be wrong. But it will run out anyway sometime, won't it? Maybe it already did - just in case.

Any other comments?

Btw: Otto got Feudalism as free tech. I hope he goes for Monotheism / Chivalry now and leaves literature behind...
and: I already hired scientists in those corrupt towns only producing 1 fpt. At least till they get 2 fpt.

 

[CKS]

- If I make peace without involving other deals, we can cancel that any time without getting a rep hit (see Microbe's thread on reputation) which I tested. Maybe we would need to trade CoL as well in that case.

Reading through the thread suggests that this is not true, at least in some cases. Microbe claims it is, Vol claims it is not and provides a save to prove it, but the save is a PTW one. How did you test it?

I don't have a problem with making peace and keeping it for 20 turns, though.

 

[Paul#42]

I tested it in another game with two rivals (A and B) who knew each other. I was at war with B, made peace without including any other deals.

I tried to sell to A 1gpt for 10g. He would have accepted. B also. Trading repution fine.
I declared on B.
I again tried to sell to A 1gpt for 10g. He would have accepted again. Same turn and one turn later.
Trading repution still fine.

Only fact I should give another test is that A and B where at war also so maybe they had no information flowing. I should have tested with C (at peace with B) also... I admit that this might be an important factor.
EDIT:I should have read more thoroughly: Microbe states that civs at war with the betrayed civ will forgive your betrayal. So I definitely have to test that again.
I will test that before I negotiate (if everybody else is fine with it of course).

Maybe some of us have conscientious reasons to make not peace with certain "civs"...
How does Denyd think about making peace with a Mongol? :suicide:

:thumbdown

 

[jeffelammar]

I'd never trash our reputation by breaking an MP - it was committed in Jove's turn 5 (1100 BC), endured through pindicators' turnset and ran out in TimBentley's turn 4 (or 5 IBT). So there's nothing left to be broken.

Just wanted to say one thing. Anything that would break our Rep should definately be discussed in the group before its done. Especially in a tech game our Rep is very important. I think everyone knew that, but just to be safe, I figured I'd mention it.

Roster
Jove
pindicator
TimBentley
Paul#42 <== UP
CKS <== On Deck
denyd
jeffelammar

 

[jeffelammar]

-This may be controversial, but I don't think we should research Military Tradition at all this game. It'll be simply that many turns taken away from our finish date. Berserks attack at 7 anyway, we shouldn't need Cav if we're careful.

Not controversial to me. We shouldn't research it. We can probably get it for free in a trade for a IA tech that we were giving away anyways.

-Jeff: You mentioned building India's core on the other continent. I don't see how we'll be able to get them over there. Can you explain please?

Good point. I was skipping the first step
If we could get them to take a city over there, then we could take Delhi and palace jump them over.
Unfortunately I really hadn't thought through how to get them over there

 

[denyd]

I was thinking more about developing our own continent with markets, banks, aqueducts, harbors and factories before taking over either Spain or America and then once we've researched all of the SS techs, moving most of our troops over there and claiming the rest of the Celts' lands as India inherits our original core. My hope would be that if we could absorb most of the Celtic lands while keeping them somewhat backward, we'd be able to gift them cash that they could use to buy techs from India. India would then have money to hurry along SS parts.

 

[Paul#42]

Pre flight check
Bergen should rather produce some workers rather then being a 5-turn-SF. We still need lots of them rather then corrupt towns.

Take off

(0) 550 Tromso and Alesund better provide scientists then growing by 1 fpt. This may change when they get improved tiles. I'd rather get 60 beakers then 1 pop (=worker) in such a town.
warrior on mountain kills barb horse, approaches camp, promotes (3/4). Ouch, 8 horses in camp...

IBT one barb horse attacks warrior (3/4) and dies.
Ottomans ally with Cartaghe against Mongols...
Cartaghinians start SoZ.
Trondheim builds settler.

(1) 530 Galley sails to Island, drops two settlers. five towns fit in there.
Establish embassy with Ottomans for 52g. Istanbul builds ToA in 42. They got horses, no iron. 2 spears.
gift 100g to America, trade Maths for 170g.
We lose war happiness But switching to 10% lux costs us just 4 beakers.

IBT two barb horses attack our warrior, promotes (4/5). Mongol reg archer approaches.
curragh sinks on ocean.

(2) 510 archer (2/4) kills Mongol archer.
founded Vadso and Farsund on island. Hire scientists.
Mongols offer 2 workers. Make peace with Mongols. Gift 100g. Trade Maths, CoL for 2 workers, 108g.
Made peace for nothing to prevent reputation hit when we break the treaty.
As I had to give CoL and Maths anyway, I gifted 100g to make them more friendly.
Everybody feel free to kick their ass again

IBT Stockholm, Bodo build workers. Switch to libraries.

(3) 490 Trade Monarchy to America for 109g (after gifting 100g).
They make some money, I hope they will trade for gpt soon in monarchy.

IBT Bergern builds settler, switch to worker.

(4) 470 Ouch. Discover Carthaginians have settled on our mountain chain on the west site.
They have no contact with india yet, but we have to get rid of them, soon!

IBT Trondheim builds settler.

(5) 450 zzz

IBT three forrests chopped for libraries.
Channel City grows to size 10, 20 turns to TGL at 14spt.

(6) 430 Trade Philo to Americans for 31g.
Risor founded on southern rocks. 40%corrupt. Start library.
Gift 100g to annoyed Spanish, making them friendly. Trade Monarchy for 116g.

IBT Celts finish ToA. Other cascade to HG. Nobody has literature.

(7) 410 zzz

IBT Carthaginians finish Great Wall. Damn it!
two new workers built.

(8) 390 Fauske founded near flood plains.

IBT zzz

(9) 370 Karistad founded on on mountain chain. 50% corrupt.

IBT Cart. warrior and archer die at Mongol town Hovd.
Oslo built horseman. Bergen worker.

(10) 350 Some units have movement left.


Landing

Here's the save

After flight check

The Great Library is finished in 14 turns. Nobody knows lit yet, we should make it.
Engineering is due next turn. We hired some specialists who may be used for tile working again.
Trondheim uses the mined hill on growth - 6,9,6,9 4-turn-SF. So just move worker from hill to coast tile after growth to size 6.
Bergen was a 3.5-4.5 worker factory - maybe it could grow a little building a library.


Annotation: I had a crash after switching from F4 to F3-Screen and had to reload from autosave once, I guess it was 370 BC.