SGOTM 9 - jeffelammar

[CKS]

I've got the save. I'll look it over and play this evening if I don't see anything that needs to be discussed.

It's too bad about Carthage. If we can kill them off before they meet India, we should. Otherwise, we just need to make sure only to Ottomans survive very long.

 

[pindicator]

With that city they planted on the mountain ring they've already met India.

 

[Paul#42]

With that city they planted on the mountain ring they've already met India.

I don't think so, they have neither peace nor war with them - I thought the first contact always results in one of this. Or am I wrong? At least they cannot see the Indian unit... (if they were a human player... )

 

[CKS]

Here is the save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm9/Jeffelammar_SG009_BC0150_01.SAV

Carthage has not met India yet, and they won't until India gets a boat out that way.

Turn 0: Swap Channel City from the lake to a plains tile - knocks 1 turn off the GL, takes a shield from Oslo. Turn some scientists into working citizens, still get engineering in 1. I'm a little concerned, because we have lots of warriors but hardly any archers (for upgrade to berserks) or horsemen (for speedy responses). However, I do little to change this. I sent the settler toward the 1-tile passage on the NE to build a canal and I put the workers to work.

IBT: Learn Eng, try to trade to Ottomans for feudalism, but they won't trade.

Turn 1: Carthage has learned feudalism, and now Ottomans will give us feudalism + 45 g for engineering, so I trade and start us on invention. Switch Vadso from warrior to harbor, do some MM, lots of worker stuff.

IBT: Ottomans build Izmit on the small island. Now we can just let them keep this city when we remove them from our continent. Farsund finishes a warrior and starts an archer. Celts start the GLH. Our dyes are connected.

Turn 2: MM and worker moves.

IBT: Trondheim settler to settler, Reyk. library to archer.

Turn 3: Same

IBT: India wants peace, Celts finish mausoleum

Turn 4: Same. I had screwed up Trondheim, but we have enough flexibility now, and I fixed it with no problems.

IBT: Aarhus library to barracks.

Turn 5: Build Batsfjord to make a canal. Send settler and warrior to island. Rush galley.

IBT: Mongol archer kills Carthaginian archer. Barb galley dies to our curragh (2/5). Carthaginians start Sun Tzu's, Istanbul completes the hanging gardens, everyone cascades to the light house. Reyk. archer to barracks, Alesund galley to lib.

Turn 6: Same old stuff.

IBT: Ottomans suggest alliance vs Mongols, but can't offer anything. I decline. Another barb galley attacks our curragh, and it sits at 1/5. Trond. settler to worker.

Turn 7: Same.

IBT: Cultural growth fills in empty block in our center. Stav. lib to market.

Turn 8: Same

IBT: Trond. worker to worker, Oslo library to horse. Ottomans start Sun Tzu's.

Turn 9: Same

IBT: Reyk barracks to archer, Aarhus same.

Turn 10: Same

Invention is due in 2 turns at -11 gpt. I haven't been running at a deficit, but I raised the science rate a notch to get it in 2.

The great library is due in 2 turns. No one else knows literature.

The Ottomans had a warrior and settler walking through our lands headed west. I let them walk and then blocked the path; they are now walking all the way back. They may walk back and forth until we are ready to attack them.

We have several coastal cities building libraries; I think we should switch at least some of them to harbors. Building the harbor first would allow them to grow while they finish the libraries.

It would be nice to have the Hanging Gardens. We may want to move the Ottomans up on our hit list.

There is still a lot of work for our workers to do. There is some land to the NE that could be settled, so we could have Trondheim spit out a couple more settlers if we wanted to settle it now. Otherwise, we'll soon want to switch to library or units.

The map hasn't changed significantly, so I'll not worry about a screenshot (as I forgot to take one last night). There are a couple of little islands south of the continent to the west.

 

[denyd]

OK, I got it. I'll review the save tonight and present a plan of action tomorrow with plans to play on Tuesday night. Any ideas, cautions and suggestions are welcome.

 

[TimBentley]

Hopefully we can get gunpowder free (do we want to help Carthage a little? It'll take 27 turns to research monotheism through education according to CivAssist. On the other hand we should be able to easily trade for it.); I suspect that's the only required MA tech we'll get from the AI until magnetism (since we don't want to delay getting astronomy). Any particular thoughts about timing the GA (such as using it to build universities)?

 

[denyd]

Current Game Situation:

Treasury: 329g & -11gpt
Research: Invention due in 2 with research at 90%
Current Deals: Mongols: 2 turns remain on peace treaty
Resources: 2 Iron & 1 Horse connected
Luxuries: 1 Dyes & 1 Incense connected – a 2nd Incense will be claimed when Molde completes library and has cultural expansion

Wonders:
Pyramids in Madrid
Hanging Gardens in Istanbul
Colossus in Channel City
Great Lighthouse in process in Lugdunum & Santiago (Spain)
Great Library in process in Channel City due in 2
Oracle in Entremont
Great Wall in Carthage
Sun Tzu in process in Carthage & Edrine (Ottoman)
Temple of Artemis in Entremont
Statue of Zeus in Sabratha (Carthage)
Mausoleum of Mausollos in Entremont

Our Military using 44 of 46 free units:
2 Settlers
20 Workers
14 Warriors
5 Archers
2 Galleys
1 Curragh
1 Horseman, 1 Worker & 4 Archers in process

Diplomatic:
We are at war with India
Carthage & Ottoman at war with Mongols (allied)
Ottoman & Carthage have ROP

We lead the world in population and are 2nd to Celts in land (16% to 15%)
Celts lead in culture (980 to our 510) and have largest 20K city with 472
Score: Celts 455 – Spain 409 – Vikings 396 – Carthage 282
Everyone is a Monarchy except India (still Despotism)

Tribe Technology Military Attitude Gold Cities
Ottomans Literature Average Polite 3g 6
Carthage Lit & Eng Weak Polite 4g 8
Mongols Lit, Cur & Cons Average Annoyed 6g 7
Spain Math, Col & Lit Weak Polite 9g 8
America IW, Col, Cur, Lit Strong Polite 15g 6
Celts Lit & Cur Weak Cautious 60g 11
India Writ, Myst, HBR, Cur Weak Annoyed 17g 1

 

[denyd]

I'll spend some time thinking about this tomorrow and post a plan during my lunch hour.

 

[Jove]

Sorry for my absence, I just wasn't around...

Gift 100g to annoyed Spanish, making them friendly. Trade Monarchy for 116g.

Hey, I really like this move! I don't know if I've ever done this. Has everyone else been doing this since GOTM2????

-Kinda late for this now, but: To avoid rep hits when making peace, I just wait until the 20 turns of the deal are up, cancel the alliance so that there simply is no deal to break, then make peace.

-I think this has been mentioned, but to avoid anxiety, I don't think it will matter if people on our continent meet India. Let's just never trade contact with 'our' civs to the other continent, and wipe 'our' civs out before Navigation. Otto's single city will have to be isolated from all contact though, as we'll be keeping them around. Maybe the island isn't a good place for Otto. How about inland, say landlocked north of our big lake, surrounded so his units never go anywhere.

-In the Trade advisor screen, click on the 'trades' tab. If it shows either and active or potential trade with India, we'll know the cat's out of the bag.

-On the same note, even if India does meet everyone, how can they possibly trade for anything? I still think that central island is too good for them though. If I get the chance, I'll try to encourage them to conquer the town on the south side of the ring (Risor) and box them in, unless there's objections.

-It's looking like a fairly early GA could do us a lot of good. Around Education, maybe 5 or so turns before just to get to it faster(maybe even earlier, we can always prebuild universities), and then bye bye to Mongols and Carthage. Their wonders are starting to look pretty attractive.

-Again, my 'big' insight is that we'll want to keep the Ottomans isolated for the whole game. It might be more important than even isolating India. They'll be the only ones with all the techs at each new age, we don't want them trading them away. We'll be able to conquer the whole world with Berserks if Otto doesn't trade things like Nationalism...

-Do we want to depend on a leader for the FP? We may not get one... If we were to build it in Stockholm, we have the gold to buy a library there and get started. Maybe we want to buy a couple libraries?

-Wherever we're not building the FP, how about a 1-time build order of Library -> Settler? Where appropriate of course. We won't be big enough until it's 65% of the world. In lands we know will be corrupt, we'll want a spacing that totally maximizes food. If we wind up with, say, 2 or more settlers waiting for land to be cleared, ok.

I've missed a few days, I need to chew on what's happened. It looks like we're doing well!

 

[AlanH]

Hey, I really like this move! I don't know if I've ever done this. Has everyone else been doing this since GOTM2????

I think Qitai came up with it somewhere around GOTM 20-ish. Rather than selling a tech got a pittance, you get attitude points for a gift, and you still clean out their treasury.

 

[Jove]

Nice. While we're talking about good civ advice, here's a quote from DaveMcW:

Scientific Double Slingshot
Does it annoy you when a scientific AI gets the same free tech as your scientific civ? Never let it happen again!

To pull this off you need a lot of gold in the bank, or optional techs from the previous age to barter with. Finish researching the last tech of the previous age, and a popup will appear congratulating you on entering the new era. Click "What's the big picture" and you will zoom to your research screen - without your free tech!

Hit F4 to tab to the foreign minister and buy the free techs from all your scientific rivals. You may need to gift them into the new age. Pay gold, gpt, anything to get those techs. Hit F1 adjust your gpt income. You will get it all back soon.

Now exit out of the foreign minister and continue your turn. When the build phase finishes check your research screen - you have a different free tech that none of the AIs have. If you got all the first-level techs already, it will be a second-level tech like Theology, Industrialization, or Space Flight! Sell it to your scientific rivals to get your money back.

not that we're scientific, but I always liked that...

 

[AlanH]

It's 3:00 am in Denver!

 

[Jove]

Haven't you ever stayed up late for civ?

 

[Paul#42]

Haven't you ever stayed up late for civ?

Maybe he doesn't post weird and unrelated thoughts at that time

The gift&sell-trick works nice unless you don't get your money back. There are situations where you cannot gift those 100g in 20g-portions with instant feedback (if you would still get it back) and you can be unlucky to lose some money. But in this game I'm cautious, of course

-Kinda late for this now, but: To avoid rep hits when making peace, I just wait until the 20 turns of the deal are up, cancel the alliance so that there simply is no deal to break, then make peace.

On reputation: Of course I checked that we had no alliance anymore. I made sure I did not spoil our rep regarding alliances nor our trading rep if we would have liked to declare on the Mongols immediately. But I think that peace treaty is not too bad looking back.
Did you find any clue that our rep is trashed?

On war weariness: As I wrote I really encountered a loss of happiness which can only be due to war happiness. Did we take the right decision regarding monarchy or republic? Should we switch once we've got republic? Will ww be a factor in this game or did we miscalculate that?

On production: I don't like that we have too few libs right now. I hope some civs come up with republic soon to spread it and finally get some money on the table we need for cash rushing.

 

[CKS]

The "Use the Big Picture to get other's free techs before you get yours" method doesn't work for me, unfortunately. The big picture only gets me to the score screen, and I can't go anywhere else. Maybe it only works in vanilla.

I don't think we have any reputation problems. We haven't broken any promises at all.

We did lose war happiness when we made peace, but I don't think it was a big deal, and making peace let us concentrate on some infrastructure, which we are really lacking. We need libraries, marketplaces, and harbors all over the place.

As we discussed once we realized that India was locked away in our inland sea, war weariness wouldn't have been a problem if we'd decided on being a republic. However, we were pretty far toward learning monarchy, so we decided to stick it out. I think that anybody who either decided to deal with WW or realized earlier that it wouldn't be an issue will have a big research advantage on us. Is it big enough to suffer through another anarchy period? If it wasn't worth a few extra despotic turns, it probably isn't worth another anarchy.

 

[denyd]

A couple of overnight thoughts.

We could spend some gold to upgrade 6-8 Warriors to MDI and take 3-4 Mongol cities. They're still in the AA, so we'd be fighting spears, archers & horses (no iron connected that I can see). With luck we might even be able to take all of their home island holdings without using Berserks. We could then use the Berserks on Carthage and complete our ring around India plan.

As for research after Invention, Monotheism, Theology & Education. That's probably 20-25 turns (probably enough time to finish off the Mongols). I'd like to either have or be close to having Education before we kick off our Golden Age. We might even have time to start on the Ottomans (with MDI) before we reach Education. I'd like to propose a raise and replace strategy with the Mongol cities to allow for more efficient placement, increased slave count and removal of the flip risk.

This one is not playing as tough as some Emperor level games I've been involved in.

 

[AlanH]

Haven't you ever stayed up late for civ?

All the time, but I'm a retired gentleman of leisure, what's your excuse?

 

[CKS]

I'm in favor of using MI to take on the Mongols when ready, and the research plan is good. Holding off the GA a little while would be a productive thing to do. If we can get libraries in uncorrupt cities before it starts, we'll have a good research boost and a nice production boost while we build our universities.

Raze and replace is fine. Trondheim and Bergen can spit settlers out quite quickly.

 

[denyd]

Turn Log 1

Turn 0 – 150 BC – Decide to take out the Mongols – Send Bergen’s warrior to Riser and Riser’s warrior (elite) to Mongol border – Switch Oslo & Reykjavik to building MDI – Gift 100g to Celts (now Polite) – Trade Currency to Celts for 160g – Spend 90g to upgrade a Vet warrior to MDI

BTW: I would prefer not to merge slaves into our cities for a couple of reasons. One is that they cost nothing to support and two they go unhappy instantly when we are at war with their original homeland.

IBT: Trondheim worker->library

Turn 1 – 130 BC – Galley checks that Rusicade is defended by an NM – Not much else except some troop movement and worker activity

IBT: Discover Invention research Monotheism at 80% due in 8 (-5gpt) – Channel City builds Great Library starts Leonardo’s Workshop (due in 34, can be switch to Forbidden Palace due in 12) – Mongols & Ottoman have Republic so we’ll be getting it

Turn 2 – 110 BC – Found Hammerfest on island hill starts harbor – Change Farsund to barracks – Change Aarhus to MDI (we’re not ready for Berserks yet) – Upgrade a 2nd Vet Warrior to MDI (90g) and more mining, roading & irrigation

IBT: Obtain The Republic from Great Library (we might want to discuss switching after we own the whole island)

Turn 3 – 90 BC – Nothing much except unit movement & worker actions

IBT: ZZZ

Turn 4 – 70 BC – See above

IBT: Oslo MDI->MDI

Turn 5 – 50 BC – See above

IBT: Bergen library->settler – Reykjavik MDI->MDI – Aarhus MDI->MDI – Ottoman start Sun Tzu

Turn 6 – 30 BC – 5 Vet MDI & 1 Elite Warrior in route to Hovd

IBT: Mongols & Carthage sign peace – Stockholm library->market – Carthage starts Great Lighthouse – Spain builds Great Lighthouse in Santiago

Turn 7 – 10 BC – Settler founds Honningsvag starts barracks – Trade The Republic to Celts for 13gpt + 110g

IBT: Molde library->market

Turn 8 – 10 AD – Military heading N and workers doing their thing

IBT: Birka library->barracks – Odense library->barracks

Turn 9 – 30 AD – Upgrade Vet Warrior to MDI (90g)

IBT: Discover Monotheism research Theology (80% due in 8) – Ottoman starts Sun Tzu

Turn 10 – 50 AD – Nothing much

A very quiet turn set – 6 MDI on station (or in route) to Hovd with 3 more due in next 2 turns, that should be enough for the Mongols. We’ll need to discuss whether to build Leo’s (26 turns) or the FP (4 turns) in Channel City – Molde’s expansion next turn should claim a 2nd (tradeable) incense – I just noticed we have no harbors, maybe Odense should be switched (barracks in 4) – I did a little MM’ing but tried to keep going what was already in place. The Ottoman, Celts & Carthage are in the Middle Ages, the rest still in AA and India does not have writing yet. We’ll need to be sure Carthage is gone before Printing Press is discovered.

(Double sorry - I forgot to take a screen shot before closing Civ & I forgot to shortcut the save on this thread)

 

[Paul#42]

Great progress!

I like the idea to go after the Mongols now. They won't have too many good units after their wars with Cartaginians and Ottomans (Although some spears might be elite).

I would like the FP in Channel City first because that would lessen our corruption. And we would have to wait for our third leader to rush that - I guess army and heroic epic would be first and second.

Research is fine for me. Don't forget to trade Republic soon everywhere to make all civs peaceful and solvent
Nice trade with the Celts, finally cash is rolling in... (I hate these meager times where you have to think about every penny you spend...)