SGOTM 9 - jeffelammar

[Jove]

Okay, if Blue2 as marked is on the river, that looks best.

To revisit the archer debate: That Mongol warrior is pretty close to India. Maybe getting a few warriors out to block isn't a bad idea...

On point 2: 33 units seems like a big investment. In the short term, a pair of curraghs on the left and 3 on the right could block the coast to make the whole southern area impassable to AI boats, at least until Astronomy (and excepting an AI with the Lighthouse). Since we will have Berserks by then, we can amphibious assault the Lighthouse right away and take it out of consideration. Later, if we can induce India to take (say) the southernmost light blue dot, he'll have to start his culture expansion all over, we can take his start area, and he can be fairly easily blocked in with 5 boats and 2 units. Naturally, the only oil in the world will be under that town

denyd: Your city placement plan looks good. If we hook horses quickly, a chariot or two can make some nice 'quick response' MP's. And forgive me if this is too obvious, but if you hit anarchy in your turnset and are forced to use specialists, choose scientists.

 

[Jove]

Regarding moving Red1 SE 1 tile: The computer counts the distance across the diagonals of tiles as 1.5. So a city here would be 3 from Delhi, 4.5 from Trondheim (effectively 4). The flip risk is a real consideration, but once we have even 2 libraries we'll have a forever culture lead over India, making flips increasingly unlikely. I think the risk is worth the reward- it's a more productive spot. If it does flip, we're at war We can take it back.

 

[denyd]

Well, I guess that'll teach me to commit to playing without checking with the boss (wife) first. We just got in from a family outing and it's way too late to start now. I'll try for tomorrow night (the schedule is empty) and done or not post the save as I'm out until next Sunday night.

 

[jeffelammar]

Well, I guess that'll teach me to commit to playing without checking with the boss (wife) first. We just got in from a family outing and it's way too late to start now. I'll try for tomorrow night (the schedule is empty) and done or not post the save as I'm out until next Sunday night.

Shoot. If you can get it to me early tonight, then I'll be able to play tonight. Otherwise, per my previous post I'll be out till next Tuesday (I get back Monday, but have commitments Monday evening.)

At that point, we can either skip me, or wait till Thanksgiving weekend is over.

 

[jeffelammar]

2. We could line the Indian lake with units and Gandhi would be trapped until Marines (like he'll ever get that far on his own).

This is something to consider later, but for now we can just let him land his settler pairs. Then we kill them and get the workers.

3. Snagging the ivory, dyes & incense added to a pair of MP units will allow for size 6 cities (adding markets make that 7), so unless we acquire other luxuries we'll be limited in city size anway unless we want to spend research money on happiness. (though we can see silks to the NW)

We can also build temples/cathedrals if we really need to. The temple doesn't help the bottom line, but the cathedral would increase max size enough to make a real difference.

As for dot maps... I basically agree with the following thoughts.
1. Yellow 3 could easilly go 1 nw (I think that is still on the river) then it would have more water to work.
2. The placement seems a little dense for my tastes, but I see no really good way to slip in anything looser.
3. I'd probably slide yellow 1 to the NE and Yellow 6 to the north.

Once we finish discussion, someone should probably build a new dot map.

 

[denyd]

Jeff: I won't be able to play until late, why don't you take it and I'll try to slip in a set after you finish. I do most of my playing from 9-12 at night.

 

[jeffelammar]

Jeff: I won't be able to play until late, why don't you take it and I'll try to slip in a set after you finish. I do most of my playing from 9-12 at night.

Sounds good. I'll get my turns in when I get home, I should be done by about 9 MST or so...

Heck that even gives me time to pack after I play

 

[jeffelammar]

Turn Log For 1525 - 1250 BC

The Save

Preflight
Not a whole lot. Do some of the mentioned MMing.
I don't think it was mentioned, but Mongols have HBR, but won't trade.
Decide to keep Bergen on the Worker...

IBT : Watch Mongols kill barbs, Bergen Worker -> Settler

1500 BC - Turn 1
New Worker north to hook incense. Old worker starts road to connect Reyki.
MM BG back to Trondheim.
Warrior to Trondheim to avoid riot.

IBT : Appologize to Mongols for our Curragh in their waters.

1475 BC - Turn 2
Workers Tag team irrigation of plains to get toward lamb.
2 MPs each in Bergen and Trondheim, Channel City Empty.

IBT : Barb Warrior approaches Trond.

1450 BC - Turn 3
Keep going. Micro manage a bit, explore a bit...
Channel City would riot. Hire Sci for one or two turns.

IBT :Trondheim Settler -> Settler...

1425 BC - Turn 4
Workers start roading Incense hills. Workers Irrigate Lambs.

IBT : R Warrior kills 2 barb warriors on defense. Promotes.


1400 BC - Turn 5
Advance on Barb Camp. Switch MM.


1375 BC - Turn 6
V Warrior kills Barb Warrior. Is next to camp but 2/4 hp.
Fire the Sci in Channel since I finish the road to Incense this turn.

1350 BC - Turn 7
Not a whole lot. Drop Sci still Phil in one. Run through MM. Cow to Bergen for turn

IBT :Discover Philosophy -> Monarchy -> Mathematics. Big Picture Revolt. 4 Turns, Risk the retry. Get Three. Trond riots, Cycle through to avoid more.

1325 BC - Turn 8
Anarchy, not a lot. Explore, Hire Scis to maintain order. West Curragh heads toward a likely suicide spot. East Curragh finds Istanbul
Mongols would sell HBR + 20 gold for Monarchy, I laugh.

IBT : Ghandi stops by asking for peace. I thought that couldn't happen because of the locked war, but I refuse anyway. An interesting note is that he has Iron on that hill his capitol sits on.


1300 BC - Turn 9
Warrior Disperses Barb Camp, gaining us 25 gold.
Found Stockholm by the Iron and Flood Plains. Set it to Worker.

1275 BC - Turn 10
V Warrior dies vrs Barb Warrior

I see that we are 1 turn off the correct pattern, and since the 1 turn will finish the Revolution, I go ahead.

IBT :We become a Monarchy

1250 BC - Turn 11
MicroManage - Trond gets settler and growth this turn. Bergen has no good MM options for this turn.
Carthage and Ottomans just got HBR, so it should be cheaper now. I leave trades to the next player.

Notes:
1. I almost held off the revolt a couple turns, but it seemed like the thing to do.
2. I settled by the iron to expand toward the Ivory and to cut off access to India.
3. I didn't settle much, but I did get us into Monarchy. Trond and Berg will each produce a settler in 2 turns, so I don't think it cost us much. (It cost less than 3 turns on those settlers)
4. I was thinking of sending one curragh on a suicide mission off the west end of Carthage, but you don't have to.
5. I didn't do a perfect job of MM, but I think we are in good shape here.

I know that my dot map is quite a bit different than we were discussing, but I think it makes better use of our seafaring talent as well a of the Terrain. I would make A, B and C a priority and then think about D and E.

If anyone disagrees on my dot map feel free to speak up.


Here is the lauch I was thinking of for the Suicide Curragh.

And here is my Dot Map.

 

[Jove]

Nice work Jeff.

On the dot-map, I'm inclined to settle C and E before A and B, (we'll get free roads for the next settler wave, food, and less corruption) but that's me. We won't be able to hook those lux too soon... I'm pretty focused on science and pop growth though, rein me in if you must.

Have we spent any turns researching Maths yet? I thought we'd agreed on literature.

Small points really. I don't think we've made any genuine blunders yet, not even a riot. And our territory is about to explode!

 

[denyd]

Jeff: I really glad I swapped spots with you as RL jumped up and kept me too busy to play last night so I formally request a skip for round 1.

Have we seen any Carthage land units? If not, they might be on an island.

From the turn log it looks like we've got about 4 turns on Mathematics already. I noticed the @#$%^&* Mongols are spreading their stench south towards our pristine lands. I'd like to send a scout up the western coast to check out what special treats may lie that direction.

 

[CKS]

Things look good, Jeff.

Because of revolting to monarchy, we can't have much invested in math; just a few turns of scientists but no tax money. We had discussed literature first, as getting the great library is essential to our strategy. What are the benefits of math first?

I'm fine with the locations of A-E, though I'd settle C and E on the way to B.

Getting to philosophy first was nice, and obviously revolting to Monarchy right away was a good choice. We were working a lot of tiles with a penalty. With Bergen and Trondheim spitting out settlers, we'll have our immediate lands filled quickly.

I'm in favor of sending out a suicide curragh. We've about finished with our local scouting.

 

[jeffelammar]

Things look good, Jeff.

Because of revolting to monarchy, we can't have much invested in math; just a few turns of scientists but no tax money. We had discussed literature first, as getting the great library is essential to our strategy. What are the benefits of math first?

I'm fine with the locations of A-E, though I'd settle C and E on the way to B.

The only investment we have in Math was the scis that were working during anarchy.

I'm sorry on that, I went through and couldn't find any mention of what was next. I was thinking Math then Lit. I probably just missed the decision.

Now that you mention it, Lit would have been a better choice.

I'm fine with any order in settling. I have to admit that I hate city E, even though the practical side of me agrees with putting it there. It just looks bad

Roster Reminder:
Jove << Up for round 2
pindicator
TimBentley
Paul#42
CKS
denyd << Skipped for TG
jeffelammar << Just played

Make sure to submit a 1000BC save for QSC purposes.

edit: Well I went back and looked, sure looks like we'd selected Lit. Sorry for the screw up. I'd be inclined to keep going for math because we have some beakers invested, but if Jove wants to undo my screw up I won't object.

 

[jeffelammar]

Have we seen any Carthage land units? If not, they might be on an island.

I'm pretty certain that our northern curragh revealed that they are connected to the Ottomans up north, so I'm 99% certain they are on our land mass.

 

[Jove]

OK. Too bad to skip denyd. I won't be able to complete my turns until Friday, possibly quite late, so if denyd jumps in by then, feel free.

In the meantime, you guys get a chance to 'program' me. Math is just 8 turns away and shrinking. If we want libraries and the Great one, we can start pre-builds for all of them and really not lose anything. Sticking with Math, I'd trade it immediately to everyone just to prod them along. Even for 5g, or whatever. Everyone ok with that? Or not? Seriously...

-Did India claim that spot to the west on our great lake? Doesn't matter, does it? We're at war, could still settle there... Do we want to get a GLb pre-build underway before everything else? Between everything else? I'll be up front: I'd stuff such a city with workers to get it going.

-I see 2 votes for suicide curragh. Any objections?

-Um, what else do we want to do? My first thoughts: work the Colossus town some more, stuff maybe 1 worker if convenient. Library pre-build at E. Road toward floodplains, irrigate, road, more workers. Once the GLb city is up, build an extra pair of workers to concentrate on that area. And...? Or...?

 

[Paul#42]

In the meantime, you guys get a chance to 'program' me. Math is just 8 turns away and shrinking. If we want libraries and the Great one, we can start pre-builds for all of them and really not lose anything. Sticking with Math, I'd trade it immediately to everyone just to prod them along. Even for 5g, or whatever. Everyone ok with that? Or not? Seriously...

Yes, researching and spreading maths is fine with me. That will bring everyone to MA earlier, I consider it even better than lit first.

-I see 2 votes for suicide curragh. Any objections?

No, that's fine, we need to find the other civs fast to speed up their research.

-Um, what else do we want to do? My first thoughts: work the Colossus town some more, stuff maybe 1 worker if convenient. Library pre-build at E. Road toward floodplains, irrigate, road, more workers. Once the GLb city is up, build an extra pair of workers to concentrate on that area. And...? Or...?

Yes, we should get the Colossus faster, other civs will be close to finishing it, too. I'd thought the city would be to size 6 earlier - but our workers are still desperately needed...
I had also thought we could build TGL there also, but maybe it would be a little late... With the Colossus in there we want the city to be our biggest anyway. It will need a rushed lib and maybe temple and cathedral soon after completing the Colossus.

 

[Paul#42]

I took a small look at the graphs to compare ourselves to other teams (in fact I was disappointed with how we "measure up" in score ...).

It seems, Team Wacken took a little walk to start (little less culture than everybody else) and CDZ have revolted few turns earlier than us. Wacken, Hagar and Klarius also revolted - one turnset later. I don't think we can draw conclusions about their form of government from that as Monarchy and Republic should be available about the same time if you go straight for them. So in that category we are not doing too bad. If one of our suicide-curraghs makes contact we should have a good start.

As always, Wacken takes a kick-start in expansion and only reduces pace to build libs in 1000 BC. Klarius' built their culture a little later but kept expanding fast.

What I want to say by this? I forgot...

 

[Paul#42]

Analyzing the save I have some minor points:

- don't forget to use commerce tiles instead of forests in Bergen and Channel City for growth.

- on the second turn Trondehim can use the plain (be irrigated IBT) and give a BG to Channel City.

- Next to Channel City we should rather mine some plains to get production. That one nearly finished is okay but the other two should deliver shields.

And for discussion:

- When Bergen finished the settler it should build two or three workers. We are in desperate need of improved tiles! By then it will have enough tiles improved to be a 4-turn-sf like Trondheim.

I support the idea to build some chariots (and delay trading for hbr) to get some movable MPs. Our cities can use 3 of them in monarchy (I just found out)
Maybe we should give Writing to Ottomans for free (or 5g) to speed up their research?

But I see no need to hurry founding at site E first. In the meantime we could build some archers for our core cities as they will always need MPs and we want some berserks later. But settling E (and C or D) first would be best for continous expansion...
I would grab the Ivory after some workers built some nice path to hustle there...

On research and wonders:
We will have Maths in 7 or even 6 turns. Literature in 17 to 15. Channel City may finish Colossus in 12 if we get to size 6 soon by adding a worker and growing twice. It will then need 40 turns for TGL (~30 if we let it grow more and Trondheim leaves both BGs to it.). Is that fast enough? I guess it would be our best site to build the Lib. Shall we build (/shortrush) a temple and a lib between Colossus and TGL?

 

[Jove]

Ok, all good points. I won't be able to play for about 12 hours, so I'm still open to suggestion.
The plan so far:
-Concentrate on the Colossus.
-Suicide curragh: go.
- Stick with Math, trade it, then Literature.
-More workers in Bergen after the Settler.
-Settling: I'm inclined to grab C, D, and E, in some order, first. Lotta land, should be mostly productive. By then, we'll still need time to road toward the Ivory...
-Great Library: That's a tough one. We don't want to miss it, and it would be nice to get a library in Channel City without having to turn down science to save the gold. I know we're pumping settlers, but Trondheim might not be a bad spot to build it, if we build yet another granary near the floodplains. Sounds a little desperate to me though, I'll put a plan like this on hold until more discussion.
- The spot 2S of Stockholm could get 10spt after a lot of work and some worker stuffing. Just floating ideas... maybe channel city isn't so bad after all... I need to check the AI's progress on wonders so far. This is really a good question.
EDIT: Y'know, if somebody else does get the GLb, we have until the Modern Age to get Ghandi to grab it... as long as it isn't overseas....

 

[CKS]

The plan sounds good to me.

About Channel City: I'm inclined to join a few workers to hurry things along. My vote is to rush a library there after the Colossus and then build the Great Library there. If it is convenient, a temple might let us lower the lux rate if Channel City is the only one that needs it. We can always sell it later. Between the Colossus and a library, pumping up its population will help our research efforts as well as speeding the GL. I think we need the GL close, so that we can insure Ghandi takes it when we want him to.

 

[Jove]

Ok, got it, I'll have a report in a little while.
-Looking at f7, the AI are all into building ToA (500sh). The cities they're building in are all small, and they could only have started after Poly. So, even after the Colossus, I bet we can beat them to 400sh in Channel City.
-Mongols are sitting on 146g- I'm going to trade them Philosophy for it right away.
- Rushing a library and a temple in Channel City will be expensive. We won't have to decide during our turnset anyway.
-Just realized it doesn't matter much if the Mongols have met India- they can't trade contacts until Navigation, we ought to be able to wipe them out by then.
And, enough. Time to play!