SGOTM 9 - jeffelammar

[TimBentley]

It looks like a good time to start the GA. Once Copernicus is in the bag, I think we'll want to give up to astronomy to someone so they can start on banking (they'll need gunpowder to want to do that too). If we give someone invention, could they research gunpowder before we do? I'd prefer to build the FP so we can research faster, rather than wait to do less corruption reduction.

 

[denyd]

We are probably about 15 turns from finishing Leo's, then the Channel City can either start the FP or Copernicus'. With Leo's done, we've got about 5 Vet Archers that would make nice Berserks (about 55g each) also that would be a great time to gift/sell Invention to the Celts and let him go for gunpowder. We can probably trade him education or astronomy for gunpowder and let him go for banking while we go for chemistry (the AI seems to prefer banking at that point). We'll need to keep an eye out if anyone goes for Printing Press as that will allow contact trading. Hopefully Carthage & Mongols will be gone by then and the Ottoman's will be bottled up in Tabriz (and the rest of the world know nothing of our past agressions).

 

[jeffelammar]

I can't believe you took that risk...

I figured I had about a 45% chance (though it might have been lower). In addition it didn't look like the Mongols were going to send anything easy to kill out. I figured the chances were good enough to take the risk to try for an elite win. Also even If I lost, the Spear wasn't going to promote, so should have been easy pickings for the remaining MI I had.


One other thing. I would much rather not have the FP in Channel City. We are going to have to let the Indians take that city as soon as they get close to Education. I'd rather put the FP in a city that we can keep till we are ready to abandon the area.

We can always do a palace jump when the time comes.

 

[Jove]

Ok, got it.
-Those markets sure are timed nicely with Education!
-It almost looks like Spain could cross sea tiles to reach us. Should we declare on Spain, and draw America into it? She'd be less likely to get a boat through Lincoln's land that way...
-Does the team like the idea of trading Republic around? We could get a small chunk of change and hopefully speed up the AI's research.
-I'm thinking of cranking out maybe 6 galleys so we can ship-chain our Berserks. We'll really slaughter Carthage and Ottomans! Ok with everyone?
-Without doing any math, Stavanger looks like where jeffelamar intends the FP. I'll go with that.
-Assuming we get to Astronomy soon, how about just switching Leo's over to Copernicus'? Then a university, in a Golden Age... hello beakers! We're about 5 turns away from 400sh at the rate we're going- too much waste if we go for Cop's right off. I'll emphasize food to cool it off...
-We could rush the barracks in Honningsvag for 28g, turn down science until we can upgrade the Archer, and start our GA right away. How 'bout it?

Courthouses and Police Stations decrease distance corruption and increase the optimal number of cities. They also each decrease the maximum corruption limit.

I just learned that courthouses increace the OCN. I didn't know that. And, by maximum corruption limit, does that mean ALL cities get a limit lower than 90%? In any case, my style has never been to build many courthouses, but I want to change that. I don't know if it'll happen in the next 10, but I think we ought to invest well in courthouses.

What is the OCN on Monarch?

I won't play for at least an hour, and likely tomorrow (er, this) afternoon instead.

 

[Paul#42]

-It almost looks like Spain could cross sea tiles to reach us. Should we declare on Spain, and draw America into it? She'd be less likely to get a boat through Lincoln's land that way...

I don't think there is a connection of sea-tiles between our continents. Even with lighthouse they would not cross a single ocean tile before navigation or magnetism. So imo no action necessary at the moment.

-Does the team like the idea of trading Republic around? We could get a small chunk of change and hopefully speed up the AI's research.

I already suggested that (twice). Pro.

-I'm thinking of cranking out maybe 6 galleys so we can ship-chain our Berserks. We'll really slaughter Carthage and Ottomans! Ok with everyone?

By now we have only 5 archers, maybe 3 galleys will do for the moment?
EDIT: I didn't read carefully. Ship chaining might be usefull. In that case 6 more galleys might be necessary as well.

-Without doing any math, Stavanger looks like where jeffelamar intends the FP. I'll go with that.

I think we will giving Stavangar to India also. I would like the FP on an island or on the other continent. Or in Channel City to benefit us only till day-X if we don't want to wait for our second leader (first for army).

-Assuming we get to Astronomy soon, how about just switching Leo's over to Copernicus'? Then a university, in a Golden Age... hello beakers! We're about 5 turns away from 400sh at the rate we're going- too much waste if we go for Cop's right off. I'll emphasize food to cool it off...
-We could rush the barracks in Honningsvag for 28g, turn down science until we can upgrade the Archer, and start our GA right away. How 'bout it?

Yes, I'd rather like Cope instead of Leo. We won't be upgrading too many units I think. It won't be worth the effort.

I just learned that courthouses increace the OCN. I didn't know that. And, by maximum corruption limit, does that mean ALL cities get a limit lower than 90%? In any case, my style has never been to build many courthouses, but I want to change that. I don't know if it'll happen in the next 10, but I think we ought to invest well in courthouses.

I don't like courthouses too much and never saw a great benefit. Contra.

 

[Jove]

I think we will giving Stavangar to India also. I would like the FP on an island or on the other continent. Or in Channel City to benefit us only till day-X if we don't want to wait for our second leader (first for army).

In C3C, there's little benefit of having a far-distant FP. On the other continent it would likely provide no benefit at all, outside of the OCN bump. By Day X, we won't really need the FP anymore, and up until then, we want as much benefit as possible. So... respectfully overruled. I'll stick with Stavanger. I doubt it'll be done in 10 turns anyway, so this isn't a permanent decision. (we're not planning on palace jumping, are we?!?)

Check on the leader usage. If I get one, I plan to stop and consult the team. Unless everyone already agrees on 'army first'...

I don't like courthouses too much and never saw a great benefit. Contra.

I hear ya. This is the first game in which I've ever been much interested in them. Keep an open mind, I'll try to think of something convincing to say about them. The main idea is to keep us right at the OCN, so our empire's corruption gets minimized. More science. But I do need to look at just how much effort that will take and if its really worth it.

 

[Paul#42]

In C3C, there's little benefit of having a far-distant FP. On the other continent it would likely provide no benefit at all, outside of the OCN bump. By Day X, we won't really need the FP anymore, and up until then, we want as much benefit as possible. So... respectfully overruled. I'll stick with Stavanger. I doubt it'll be done in 10 turns anyway, so this isn't a permanent decision. (we're not planning on palace jumping, are we?!?).

The location is not so important in C3C I agree. But what I don't like about Stavanger is the time it takes to build it there. But looking at the time after that when we will enjoy close to no corruption in Stavanger I agree on your decision. That 20 turns will pay off soon. So go ahead.

We should not waste too much time waiting for (two!) leaders.

 

[denyd]

An army is fine for the first leader and Stavenger works for the FP though we'll probably build another one on the other island once X-Day happens.

One thing to remember, once we let India expand, the game isn't over. What we'll want to do is have a third party who is behinid in science that we can give large lumps of cash to. They'll then spend that cash buying the techs India got from the GLib helping India cash rush items (like SS parts)

 

[denyd]

An army is fine for the first leader and Stavenger works for the FP though we'll probably build another one on the other island once X-Day happens.

One thing to remember, once we let India expand, the game isn't over. What we'll want to do is have a third party who is behinid in science that we can give large lumps of cash to. They'll then spend that cash buying the techs India got from the GLib helping India cash rush items (like SS parts)

 

[CKS]

FP in Stavanger is good. Trading around the republic is good. Swapping to Copernicus sounds fine.

In my experience, courthouses are good in large cities but not of much use in small ones. I'm not sure how much help they are in a city that is running a lot of specialists, though, and this may be our situation.

 

[Paul#42]

Hey, breakfast is almost over, where is the next turnset? I abstained from newspapers in expectation of some more exciting reading!!

 

[Jove]

My weekend got gobbled up by overtime! I'm on it right now, at this moment I will say we started our Golden Age in 300 AD.

Here's another interesting quote though. Still can't find the exact info, sorry if I'm getting redundant.

What is the optimal city number (OCN)? What happens if I exceed it?
The OCN is what chiefly determines your corruption due to number of cities. It's not a hard limit. You can have many more cities than the OCN, and still have a productive empire. What matters more is the modified OCN. That is not a hard limit either, but the penalty for adding an extra city after you have already exceeded the modified OCN is twice what it would have been if you were below the modified OCN.

What are the OCN modifiers?
Courthouses and Police Stations each increase the OCN by 25%. WLTK celebrations increase the OCN by another 25%, but only for waste calculations. The commercial trait increases the OCN by another 25%. For Communism the Forbidden Palace increases the OCN by 100%.

What exactly does the Forbidden Palace (FP) do?
It depends on your government. If you are in Communism, the FP doubles the OCN and does nothing else. If you are not in Communism, then distance corruption depends on the distance from the Capital or FP, whichever is closer. The FP also lowers corruption due to number of cities for non-Communist empires, because it provides a whole new set of cities where the rank in closeness starts from 1.

 

[jeffelammar]

Just a quick note on why I didn't trade Lit to everyone. I traded it to the civs on the other continent to jump start them, but I wanted to hold back the locals since we wanted to kill them soon.

One other thing. Jove's FP definition is for Vanilla/PTW. In C3C it is different.

The Forbidden Palace acts as a second Palace for distance corruption calculations, but not for rank calculations. The Forbidden Palace itself will have low corruption, but if there are many cities closer to the Palace than the Forbidden Palace, the cities around the Forbidden Palace will have high rank corruption. However, even though it doesn’t provide a new set of city ranks, the Forbidden Palace reduces rank corruption throughout the empire by increasing the optimal number of cities.

In effect, this means that putting the FP close, but not next to the Palace is usually the best bet.
Another interesting experiment carried out by Sir Pleb.
As you can see at the end of the linked post, the commerce bonus went up till he got to the 4th city out. Then started dropping.

Edit Note: I agree completely with cranking out the FP in Stavenger. We can build another one later after we lose Stavenger to India.

 

[Jove]

Here's the save : http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm9/Jeffelammar_SG009_AD0350_01.SAV

Turn 0- Just check to mm everything. Rush Barracks-28g, Honningsvag.
Sell Republic for 43g total.
Sell Engineering to Celts for 32g, 8gpt. Gift them Invention. Ok Brennus, go Gunpowder.
Literature to Otto for 37g. Ok Osman, Libraries, not units.
Science to 60% just to make sure we can afford to upgrade a Berserk next turn. Did a test- Berserks cost 150g.
Ibt- watch Mongol archer die attacking something… Ottomans’ warrior.
Barracks to spearman- Honningsvag.
The Celts are building Leonardo’s Workshop.

Turn 1- Upgrade Berserk.
Kazan defended by reg spear.

Ibt- another Mongol archer kills the redlined Otto elite warrior.
Courthouse Stavanger, to FP.

Turn 2- Education in 2. So, we didn’t lose a turn!
E Warrior v Reg Archer: Victory. Warrior to 3/5.
Gift Currency to America.

Ibt- Stavanger grows to 8.
Otto and Mongols sign Peace.
Berserk to Berserk, Aarhus.

Turn 3- Settler and Berserk load galley and head north.
Wounded warrior retreats from 2 Mongol archers.
Carthage has 4 offensive units in our Mongol theatre!
Celts will offer 60g and 26gpt for Theology. It’s really too good to pass up! We’re at +32gpt.
What will the AI research next?
Printing Press- Communications-2, empty tech? 256/#turns, optional-divide by 1.5
Music Theory- Wonder-6, optional, divide by 1.5
Banking- Improvement,-2
Astronomy- Wonder-6, unit-2, Naval Transport-34, Trade over sea-4,
Chemistry- empty tech, 256/#turns.
Gunpowder- Resource-16, attacker (resource req.)-6, Defender (resource req.)-70

So the AI will prefer Gunpowder, then probably Metallurgy. Well, the Ottomans are one of our targets, so let’s cut ‘em out of invention, etc.

Markets in 1. I don’t dare turn down science to count on the income.

Ibt- Education. To Astronomy in 8 @ 90%
America asks us to leave territory.
Carthage moves troops into our land!
Market Trondheim. To Uni.
Market Molde. To Aquaduct.
Spain building Sun Tzu’s

Turn 4- Science to 20% (for upgrades next turn). Carthage looks like they’ll attack. Arrr! For Monotheism, Carthage will pay 33gpt and Ally vs. Mongols. Worth a shot.
Advance vet archer out of CC to upgrade if needed.
Advance SW vet archer toward core.

Ibt- Carthage DOW! Takes Tabriz.
Oslo Aquaduct to Harbor.
Pikeman Odense to Horseman.
Celts are building Sistene Chapel

Turn 5- Elite MDI vs. reg Cart. MDI in jungle near Honnigsvag: 4/5 victory.

Battle of Kazan-
Vet Berserk v reg shield: 5/5 victory+. Golden Age. Increase from +121gpt to +179gpt. Turn on the sound effects and listen to the Berserk’s evil laugh!
E MDI v reg shield: 3/5 victory. Capture Kazan.

Astronomy in 5 at 100%
Unload Berserk and settler at Batsfjord.
Celts pay 46g and 27gpt for Education.
Otto will pay 63g and +51gpt for Theology. This is really too good to pass up guys. If we break this deal, we just have to be sure word never gets out. 51gpt is more than we’d get out of their land by owning it ourselves! And they’ll ally v Carthage.

Switch Batsfjord to galley in 1. Switch Alesund to galley in 1.
Upgrade MDI and Berserk.

Ibt- r MDI defends against Carthage archer. 2/5 victory.
Carthage boat moving in the south.
Aquaduct Reykjavik. To Pikeman.
Resistance in Kazan ends. Riot.
Market Stockholm. To worker.
Galley Alesund. To Library.
Galley Batsfjord. To Pikeman.

Turn 6- Rush Harbor in Hovd. 76g. To Galley.
Science to 90%.
Otto knows India.

Ibt- Carthage archer redlines against Mongols.
More Carthage boats moving in.
Worker Stockholm. To worker.

Turn 7- Battle of Tabriz
V Berserk dies against 2/3 MDI
V berserk v MDI: 2/4 victory
Archer remains.

r galley v reg galley: defeat. Redlined Cart galley.

Ibt- Mongol archer dies, another promoted v Carthage.
Harbor Oslo. To Horseman.
Worker Stockholm. To Worker.
Horseman Odense. To Berserk. To Aquaduct.
Harbor Risor. To Pikeman.

Turn 8- Berserk loads onto galley in the west.
Worker joins Stavanger. FP in 12.
Upgrade MDI in Birka.

Battle of Tabriz 2
E MDI v. Unfortified r NDM: dies.
2/4 Berserk v 1/3 NDM: 2/4 victory. Archer remains. E MDI moves in.

Ibt- Aquaduct Bergen. To University.
Pikeman Reykjavik. To Horseman.
Worker Stockholm. To Worker.
Berserk Aarhus. To Berserk.
Library Fauske. To worker.

Turn 9- Battle of Tabriz 3
E MDI v reg archer. 4/5 victory. Capture Tabriz. Finally.

Found Svovaer. Claim Mongol wheat and floodplains
Horse and Pike defend coast against encroaching Carthaginian boat. Asssist from Barb galley.
Celts have Chivalry.

There’s a reg fort NDM defending Rusciade. We have 1 berserk on a galley to attack. So, hills +50%, fortified +25%. That 3 + 1.5 + .75 = 5.25 v our 6. We’re a vet, still, there’s too much risk… they probably have another unit. Let’s wait for another Berserk and an/or MDI.

Rush vet berserk in Birka. Switch Alesund to Galley.

Ibt- Carthage boat turns back around, heads west.
Astronomy. To Banking (?) in 5. Science to 100%. Approx 377bpt/1386 for Banking.
Worker Stockholm. To Barracks (?)
Berserk Birka. To Berserk (?)

Turn 10- Switch Leo’s to Copernicus’. Waste 49 shields. That’s the price of victory I guess… We ought to get Banking in 4!
Horse and Pike to MP duty.
Join worker to Stavanger. Size 10. FP in 9!

Battle of Karakorum
4/4 MDI v f3/3 spear: dies. Spear unscratched.
4/4 MDI v f3/3 spear: 2/4 victory.
5/5 Berserk v f3/3 spear (across river, sorry, just discovered this town): 5/5 victory.
There’s a Mongol archer that just stepped out of town. Attack it rather than take the town now, to keep us unexposed.
5/5 MDI v 3/3 archer: 5/5 victory.

So that’s it. My notation is evolving, hope it isn't confusing. Sorry to leave that 2/4 MDI just sitting there. Hopefully Genghis is out of archers. Trying to push toward those Spices
-I intended to amphibious assault Carthage with that inland galley. Unexpectedly lost a Berserk though.
-We’re making +80g at 100% right now. It’s maxed, I bet we can turn it down once we have Copernicus’. This is the first turn of research, so nothing is lost if we switch from Banking to something else.
-Too bad I spent so much gold on military. We need it though. The fight with Hannibal was a little unexpected. Otto and Genghis are at war with him. Otto is Gracious.
-Celts will trade Chivarly and all their gold for Astronomy. I didn’t do it, maybe we need more time to take control of our island before we have AI sailing the seas.
-Rusciade is defended by at least one Numidian mercenary. A second Berserk will be ready to load the galley next turn.
-I’d like to rush a settler out of Kazan, but so far it hasn’t been the priority.
- Didn’t get all the galleys I talked about. With the ones in production, maybe a couple more, we should be able to chain units north soon.
- None of the builds are final, except Copernicus’ and maybe the university in Trondheim.
- Don't forget Carthage has the Great Wall.
- I wasn't wild about size 1 cities having just a scientists either, but found myself using them to get 'one more turn' pretty often...
- Fauske has 2 specialists right now- it just can't grow or do anything more useful for a turn.
Pindicator, you’re next. I know you’re going to have fun with this!

 

[jeffelammar]

- I wasn't wild about size 1 cities having just a scientists either, but found myself using them to get 'one more turn' pretty often...!

Yeah, after I made that comment at the beginning of my set, I ended up using them that way quite a bit. Those cities couldn't grow at more than +1 fpt. At that point a Sci often sounds better.

 

[pindicator]

Got it.

Looks like a battle to be had on my hands. I'm probably not even going to be able to do more than glance at it tonight. Tomorrow I will go over the situation and play either then or Wednesday.

 

[TimBentley]

Looks like good progress against the Mongols. Lets continue to increase our income through military means.

The Celts should research astronomy when they're done with gunpowder (hopefully we can buy that for banking), and there is a safe path for a caravel between the continents. I would go straight for ToG after banking. If we give someone chemistry, I think they would research metallurgy. Or they may want to research printing press. If we gave someone physics then banking (because they'd go for that before chemistry, metallurgy, or physics), they could research ToG. Clear as mud?

 

[Jove]

Thanks Tim.
I hear you on the tech planning. This is the first game I've tried to use the 'What will the AI research next' data, so I'm not sure if I'm using it right. It seems to suggest they'll place a low priority on Banking compared to just about everything else. Might as well give 'em banking anyway... Knowing what the AI will do is a part of the game I haven't mastered. You or someone else ought to take the lead on this.

Friendly reminder: That galley on the west coast is fortified....

btw- My computer seems to have come down with a virus. It took a bit of effort just to post this. I hope I don't vanish for days, but if so, that's why.

 

[Paul#42]

some bad luck with RNG, but all in all good progress
A little early for Cartaghinians to seal their fate, but better than too late. This will give us some war happiness, if necessary.

I would have liked if you already had built Cope one turn earlier by switching IBT via The Big Picture

Market Trondheim. To Uni.
Market Molde. To Aquaduct.

I'm a little surprised about us building markets - I thought those where university prebuilds? Or is this your notation of changing the current building? I did not have a look at the save yet.

With us having the ring aroud India completed soon, it should be no problem letting the Celts have astronomy soon, right? Maybe we should ignite a little war over there to prevent them from looking for new areas to settle?

Question: Does an army heal on a ship (in friendly / neutral area)? If so, how many points per turn?

 

[CKS]

Things look good. RNG bad luck is par for the course, but it sounds like those were an interesting set of turns. I'm just as happy to be given a reason to make serious inroads on the Carthaginians now. 4 turn research sounds good, too.

I think I've had units heal in boats at the regular non-moving rate, but I'm not positive.