TimBentley
Deity
Only that they'd still probably research printing press. We could still try it, though.Paul#42 said:
SGOTM 9 - jeffelammar
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Here's straight from the 'What will the AI research next?' article:
Printing Press: Communications Trade: 2; Optional, divide by 1.5 = 1.33
Music Theory: Wonder: 6; Optional, divide by 1.5 = 4
Economics: Wonder:6; Optional, divide by 1.5 = 4
Navigation: Trade Over Ocean: 8; Wonder: 6; Map Trades: 2; Optional, divide by 1.5 = 10.66
Physics: Empty Tech Cost: 256/turns = ~12.8
Chemistry: Empty Tech Cost: 256/turns = 17.06
Metallurgy: Improvement: 2; Attacker (resource reqd): 6; Defender (resource reqd): 70 = 78
Magnetism: Trade Over Ocean: 8; Naval Transport: 34; Attacker (resource reqd): 6-Frigate, Attacker (resource reqd): 6-Privateer = 54
Democracy: Government: 259/turns, Optional, divide by 1.5 = ~17.2
It's not clear these numbers are correct. For Physics and Chemistry, I plugged in 20 and 15 turns, just guessing off the Celt's previous research rate. If they're speeding up (and if we quit taking their gold), these values will go up.
Metallurgy is the big question mark. To bombard is to attack, and the defensive free shot is, well, defensive, so I counted the cannon as an attacker and a defender. If this is right, it looks like Metallurgy will be the most favored tech- assuming the AI has the proper pre-requisites to 'see' it.
Note Magnetism is fairly attractive. Not sure about Democracy, it's pretty expensive and optional. Best case, say they can research it in 10, gives it a value of 17.2. Higher than chemistry... maybe. I'd rather the AI go for something required.
It's not rock solid. My judgement is the AI will go Metallurgy if they know Chemistry.
On privateers, a couple could come in handy. The best way to prevent contact though is to eliminate Carthage and trap Otto before any boats come across. There's only about 5 more turns in the deal with Otto... and starting a war between the new world AI *might* keep them occupied.
Printing Press: Communications Trade: 2; Optional, divide by 1.5 = 1.33
Music Theory: Wonder: 6; Optional, divide by 1.5 = 4
Economics: Wonder:6; Optional, divide by 1.5 = 4
Navigation: Trade Over Ocean: 8; Wonder: 6; Map Trades: 2; Optional, divide by 1.5 = 10.66
Physics: Empty Tech Cost: 256/turns = ~12.8
Chemistry: Empty Tech Cost: 256/turns = 17.06
Metallurgy: Improvement: 2; Attacker (resource reqd): 6; Defender (resource reqd): 70 = 78
Magnetism: Trade Over Ocean: 8; Naval Transport: 34; Attacker (resource reqd): 6-Frigate, Attacker (resource reqd): 6-Privateer = 54
Democracy: Government: 259/turns, Optional, divide by 1.5 = ~17.2
It's not clear these numbers are correct. For Physics and Chemistry, I plugged in 20 and 15 turns, just guessing off the Celt's previous research rate. If they're speeding up (and if we quit taking their gold), these values will go up.
Metallurgy is the big question mark. To bombard is to attack, and the defensive free shot is, well, defensive, so I counted the cannon as an attacker and a defender. If this is right, it looks like Metallurgy will be the most favored tech- assuming the AI has the proper pre-requisites to 'see' it.
Note Magnetism is fairly attractive. Not sure about Democracy, it's pretty expensive and optional. Best case, say they can research it in 10, gives it a value of 17.2. Higher than chemistry... maybe. I'd rather the AI go for something required.
It's not rock solid. My judgement is the AI will go Metallurgy if they know Chemistry.
On privateers, a couple could come in handy. The best way to prevent contact though is to eliminate Carthage and trap Otto before any boats come across. There's only about 5 more turns in the deal with Otto... and starting a war between the new world AI *might* keep them occupied.
jeffelammar
Space for rent
Nice turns TimBentley 
A couple points.
1. Printing Press is an optional tech. I say leave it be till someone else reseraches it.
2. Die Carthage Die
3. Rusicade needs culture more than a harbor. If it expands it can work two Whales!
4. Armies are good. More Serk Armies are better. Only problem with Zerk armies is on defense. I agree second MGL should go to another Zerk Army.
5. I think a stack of privateers could be fun, but how does it help. By the time we got a blockade in place Magnetism will be known... I guess a stack could wander around taking out boats though...
One other thing: I'll be out of town over Christmas. I'll be online, but won't be able to play civ. Dates for that are Dec 22-30.
A couple points.
1. Printing Press is an optional tech. I say leave it be till someone else reseraches it.
2. Die Carthage Die
3. Rusicade needs culture more than a harbor. If it expands it can work two Whales!
4. Armies are good. More Serk Armies are better. Only problem with Zerk armies is on defense. I agree second MGL should go to another Zerk Army.
5. I think a stack of privateers could be fun, but how does it help. By the time we got a blockade in place Magnetism will be known... I guess a stack could wander around taking out boats though...
One other thing: I'll be out of town over Christmas. I'll be online, but won't be able to play civ. Dates for that are Dec 22-30.
TimBentley
Deity
We're not really discussing researching printing press, just whether the Celts will research it next.
@Jove: The cannon counts as a nonattacker, nondefender, nonnaval transport. I believe (as does Ambiorix, whose spreadsheet I use) the frigate and privateer also count as units of none of those types (edit: now confirmed). Also, the empty tech cost is added for all techs. You're also missing the number of techs they're a prerequisite for (alexman uses the term "other techs"). Plugging .2 in the spreadsheet (12 turns to research chemistry, adjusted correctly for other techs) results in 25.7 for printing press, 25.33 for music theory, 20.57 for economics, 25.9 for navigation, 23.33 for chemistry, 22 for physics, 25 for metallurgy, 64.82 for magnetism, and 25.91 for democracy. I had been misreading the cost of gunpowder and using .15 thinking that would mean roughly 10 turns to research gunpowder, which increased the value of printing press and decreased the value of navigation in respect to other techs.
Anyways I support selling them chemistry.
@Jove: The cannon counts as a nonattacker, nondefender, nonnaval transport. I believe (as does Ambiorix, whose spreadsheet I use) the frigate and privateer also count as units of none of those types (edit: now confirmed). Also, the empty tech cost is added for all techs. You're also missing the number of techs they're a prerequisite for (alexman uses the term "other techs"). Plugging .2 in the spreadsheet (12 turns to research chemistry, adjusted correctly for other techs) results in 25.7 for printing press, 25.33 for music theory, 20.57 for economics, 25.9 for navigation, 23.33 for chemistry, 22 for physics, 25 for metallurgy, 64.82 for magnetism, and 25.91 for democracy. I had been misreading the cost of gunpowder and using .15 thinking that would mean roughly 10 turns to research gunpowder, which increased the value of printing press and decreased the value of navigation in respect to other techs.
Anyways I support selling them chemistry.
denyd
Emperor
AlanH said:
Looks like a couple of teams have reached the point where they're ready to let Gandhi loose and he's not taking the bait.
How does this change our game plan?
@Tim: Can you post a link to the spreadsheet you're using? It looks like I'm not using the information properly.
@denyd: I think it makes things a whole lot easier. Setting them up ahead of time means we can prod them along and more or less choose the exact turn they capture the GLib.
@denyd: I think it makes things a whole lot easier. Setting them up ahead of time means we can prod them along and more or less choose the exact turn they capture the GLib.
jeffelammar
Space for rent
Thanks for pointing this out. I don't think it changes our strategy at all though...denyd said:
If we continue to control contact with India, then we should be able to hit the Modern Era well before India gets close to Education. We give them Bergen or Molde as allowed by that post, and then it's no different from our original plan.
By that time we should be well set up on the other island and ready to give India our home. Actually in a way this would work out better. We would be able to give India a city with a Factory, a Marketplace, Bank and whatever else we can build for them.
We do need to keep an eye on research rates for India. We may need to let others have contact with them at some point to increase their research rate if they don't go after Map Making at some point.
denyd
Emperor
What happens if you give a city with a nuclear power plant to someone who hasn't discovered engineering? 
pindicator
Emperor
That does make it a bit easier for us, I think. I was wondering if we would ever see them come out.
I have a question on culture: would India raze the captured GL city if our nearby towns have too much of it? I know the AI will raze if they don't think they can hold a town, but does this apply to culture too.
The beginning of next week is opening up for me. I can probably get a turnset in Monday or Tuesday evening if you guys mind moving me around in the order a bit.
I have a question on culture: would India raze the captured GL city if our nearby towns have too much of it? I know the AI will raze if they don't think they can hold a town, but does this apply to culture too.
The beginning of next week is opening up for me. I can probably get a turnset in Monday or Tuesday evening if you guys mind moving me around in the order a bit.
jeffelammar
Space for rent
Paul#42 said:Ceterum censeo, carthaginem esse delendam! [Cato]
I haven't thought about that quote since Latin class in high school.
glad that I could entertain you 
How many defenders where in those "average" Carthaginian towns? two?
I wonder if the refreshed army should immediately attack a town again or should "wait" (just clearing some exposed units) for Cartaghe to fall
If India should raze Channel City, that would definitely be a minor rebound, but nothing we could not recover from
:suicide:
How many defenders where in those "average" Carthaginian towns? two?
I wonder if the refreshed army should immediately attack a town again or should "wait" (just clearing some exposed units) for Cartaghe to fall
I'm in great-quotes-mood
If India should raze Channel City, that would definitely be a minor rebound, but nothing we could not recover from
:suicide:jeffelammar said:
Oh I don't know... If they never learn Map Making, that just means we can give 'em an inland city more in advance of X-Day. They build a little military, they're ready to take Channel City, they research furiously, but nowhere near to Education. Then, we move out, they take a bunch of cities. Assuming it works that way
I wondered what to do with the army too. If we get too bold with 2 units, there's a *small* chance of losing it. If it moves south, it could give nice support to the amphibious berserks moving in on that Cart floodplains city, pretty much guaranteeing capturing it. Then, hey, more berserks, load one up if you like and start chopping!
I don't know if India would raze our cities. It doesn't seem right that they'd burn the Great Library though... You'd think they'd want a little land, but this is the AI...
I hope Otto doesn't find a way to interfere. I think he has to go right after the Modern Age starts.
I don't mind. What slot does Pindicator get?pindicator said:
Which point do you guys think would be best? Not in the next turnsets, right?Jove said:Oh I don't know... If they never learn Map Making, that just means we can give 'em an inland city more in advance of X-Day. They build a little military, they're ready to take Channel City, they research furiously, but nowhere near to Education. Then, we move out, they take a bunch of cities. Assuming it works that way
EDIT: Of course not, we must have reached the modern era, as AlanH stated.
I will calculate how long it would take us to go there. Any hints how many units there are in Carthage?Jove said:
Did anyone ever seriously test, if loading a MI to our army would forfeit its seaborne feature? Or would we consider that an exploit anyway?
[EDIT] One more thing: I never lost a city late in the game (I never played late in the game) - is there still (as in Civ 2) a chance to get some guerrillas after losing a city? If so, do they cost support?
jeffelammar
Space for rent
1, I think that no matter what the trigger for giving up to India is when they get close to Education, or we have most of the required techs for the Spaceship (whichever is first)Paul#42 said:Which point do you guys think would be best? Not in the next turnsets, right?
EDIT: Of course not, we must have reached the modern era, as AlanH stated.
I will calculate how long it would take us to go there. Any hints how many units there are in Carthage?
Did anyone ever seriously test, if loading a MI to our army would forfeit its seaborne feature? Or would we consider that an exploit anyway?
[EDIT] One more thing: I never lost a city late in the game (I never played late in the game) - is there still (as in Civ 2) a chance to get some guerrillas after losing a city? If so, do they cost support?
2. All units in an army must have the ability for the army to have it, so an MI would make our army non-amphib.
3. There are no Guerillas in civ3. The only thing like that old feature is that there will be resisters in the cities.
denyd
Emperor
Do we still have any warriors or archers left?
If so, please do not upgrade one of them. I'd like to have one AA DEF=1 unit left on our island so if India builds a War Elephant we could sacrifice our unit to kick off his Golden Age.
If so, please do not upgrade one of them. I'd like to have one AA DEF=1 unit left on our island so if India builds a War Elephant we could sacrifice our unit to kick off his Golden Age.
TimBentley
Deity
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2317076&postcount=78 Here's some instructions on using it: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1079999&postcount=48 (the file at the bottom there is the first version for vanilla).Jove said:
We've got a few regulars as MPs.denyd said:
Trondheim or Aarhus (AlanH specified distance <=7 from Delhi) would also be candidates for giving to India.
jeffelammar
Space for rent
Just because I get confused on this
Roster
Jove
pindicator <== skipped, but thinking he'll have time next week
TimBentley
Paul#42 <== Has it and is playing
CKS <== On Deck
denyd
jeffelammar <== Hoping to get a turnset in before he leaves for vacation
Roster
Jove
pindicator <== skipped, but thinking he'll have time next week
TimBentley
Paul#42 <== Has it and is playing
CKS <== On Deck
denyd
jeffelammar <== Hoping to get a turnset in before he leaves for vacation
denyd
Emperor
I've got a flexible schedule the rest of the year (no travelling), so I can switch around with anyone who wants to get in their turns before the holidays.
I agree with keep in the Army all Berserks. Once we get close to Magnetism go ahead and add that 3rd Berserk (hopefully an elite*) to the army.
Any reason to research Military Tradition? Armies are nice, but I don't think the extra research turns will compensate for the slow down. Probably research ASAP for the next age using required only.
Just an FYI, I just completed COTM 19 (Conquest SID level) and here is the what the AI (Mongols) researched (and the order I stole them in):
Industrialization (somehere in here they got Espionage & Communism)
The Corporation
Refining
Steel
Replacement Parts
Combustion
Sanitation
Flight
Mass Production
Amphibious War
Motorized Transportation
Rocketry
Ecology
I agree with keep in the Army all Berserks. Once we get close to Magnetism go ahead and add that 3rd Berserk (hopefully an elite*) to the army.
Any reason to research Military Tradition? Armies are nice, but I don't think the extra research turns will compensate for the slow down. Probably research ASAP for the next age using required only.
Just an FYI, I just completed COTM 19 (Conquest SID level) and here is the what the AI (Mongols) researched (and the order I stole them in):
Industrialization (somehere in here they got Espionage & Communism)
The Corporation
Refining
Steel
Replacement Parts
Combustion
Sanitation
Flight
Mass Production
Amphibious War
Motorized Transportation
Rocketry
Ecology
