SGOTM 9 - jeffelammar

[Jove]

Are the Celts in the IA yet? Should we gift them into the IA if not?

Not yet, they need 2 techs. Should we gift them? Hmmm, maybe. If we let them have Steam Power, being agricultural, they'll have a huge population and be worth more gold. Plus Rep Parts, even more. But then, they'll really be tough to conquer if we have to... good question.

 

[denyd]

They'll likely go Nationalism->Communism as the AI usually does so they won't be much help with techs until they get those done.

They'll probably have rifles before we get around to them. Depending on how much we give them, they might get to infantry though probably not tanks. As long as it's just rifles, we shouldn't have any problems. Once we get RP however we can't build Berserks anymore (guerillas only) so if we want a bunch more we should start building them now.

 

[jeffelammar]

I'll let Jeff claim this and play if he can. He posted he'd be out from 12/22-30 so I'll wait until tomorrow to claim it.

Go ahead. I still have to pack tonight, so I don't think I'll get turns in.

I may be taking a laptop with me, so I might be able to play. I'll make a definate decision after you post your turns. I'll post some thoughts in a few minutes...

 

[jeffelammar]

1. I'm for attacking one of the other islands ASAP. They aren't holding up their end of the research stick, so I'd rather get Spain and America down to OCC and use their lands for specialists.

2. I think that the best way to get India to build the space ship is to get them to own the whole Island. Otherwise they will spend a lot on military.

3. I don't think we should gift the city to the Indians as soon as we enter the modern era. I think we should get as Many MA techs as possible before we do. As things stand, I'm perfectly happy with India's capitol being Delhi. Our productive cities are close enough to Delhi to be worthwhile. Trondheim or Channel City would be the only other choices that would interest me. (We can't give them either though. CC has wonders and T has our palace.)

4. If we are going to give India the whole home island, then I would like to save a MGL to rush our Palace over in the New World right before we gift the city to India. Building by hand would take too long. We could do a free palace jump instead though. We can rush infra over there to prep a core.

5. I'm not sure if Diplomatic victory is turned on, but if it is we will need to make sure that we build the UN on the other continent. We could easily do that by jumping our palace and immediately starting it since India would be too busy taking our cities and building defenders. Edit: We could also build it locally and abandon the city (but would want to make sure we didn't build it in Channel City). We could build it in Trondheim in prep for a palace jump.

 

[Jove]

4. If we are going to give India the whole home island, then I would like to save a MGL to rush our Palace over in the New World right before we gift the city to India. Building by hand would take too long. We could do a free palace jump instead though. We can rush infra over there to prep a core.

So, you're saying we can't gift a city with the Palace or a wonder in it. But, if we jump the palace, Trondheim is fair game. I like it! We better not build Newton's in Trondheim then.

More thinking on gifting Celts into the IA: Nationalism and Sanitation aren't mandatory, but both could be very useful. Especially Nationalism, in order to draft units to disband for 2nd core buildings, or corrupt courthouses, etc. Can we set Celts up to want to research Nationalism? If they have Steam Power and we gift them workers, will it speed them up?

 

[Paul#42]

1. I'm for attacking one of the other islands ASAP. They aren't holding up their end of the research stick, so I'd rather get Spain and America down to OCC and use their lands for specialists.

Why do you want them to survive?

3. I don't think we should gift the city to the Indians as soon as we enter the modern era. I think we should get as Many MA techs as possible before we do. As things stand, I'm perfectly happy with India's capitol being Delhi. Our productive cities are close enough to Delhi to be worthwhile. Trondheim or Channel City would be the only other choices that would interest me. (We can't give them either though. CC has wonders and T has our palace.)

Let's discuss how long India will take to conquer our core. I'm afraid they will build 2-3 defenders in every new conquered city before moving on, what do you think? I never watched a game from that point of view... Maybe someone does a test? Anyone here with a game where he has one civ in a backward OCC?

I don't like Delhi as Indias Capital. It should be more central, I rather like Stockholm or Aarhus for that honor. Trondheim could be fine, too if we have a leader to jump the palace before.

4. If we are going to give India the whole home island, then I would like to save a MGL to rush our Palace over in the New World right before we gift the city to India. Building by hand would take too long. We could do a free palace jump instead though. We can rush infra over there to prep a core.

I do not like a free palace jump, that would spoil to much infrastructure.
I say: If we get a leader, jump palace to the new world. Otherwise let India conquer Trondheim and make sure our new palace jumps over the ocean, too.

5. I'm not sure if Diplomatic victory is turned on, but if it is we will need to make sure that we build the UN on the other continent. We could easily do that by jumping our palace and immediately starting it since India would be too busy taking our cities and building defenders. Edit: We could also build it locally and abandon the city (but would want to make sure we didn't build it in Channel City). We could build it in Trondheim in prep for a palace jump.

This one is solved:

All victory conditions are switched on except diplomatic

No need to worry about that.

More thinking on gifting Celts into the IA: Nationalism and Sanitation aren't mandatory, but both could be very useful. Especially Nationalism, in order to draft units to disband for 2nd core buildings, or corrupt courthouses, etc. Can we set Celts up to want to research Nationalism?

I consider this to be low priority, rather sell those techs for good cash. Maybe gift Celts to research RP for us, but if we chose that highest priority they won't help us.

If they have Steam Power and we gift them workers, will it speed them up?

We will need every single worker for quite a while developing our actual core, developing our future core - I don't think we can gift any of them.

 

[denyd]

If we gift the Celts to the IA, they'll go for Nationalism and Communism first, so if we want them to help us at all, we need to get them current ASAP. Remember they'll probably still want to research Navigation & Economics and maybe Democracy before the start on Industrialization. We also don't want to take all of their GPT otherwise their research will slow down.

I'd like to propose taking out Spain entirely and save America for researching Rocketry while we're hammering the Celts.

I've got it and will play tonight. My plan will be to load up 4-5 galleons of Beserks and send the fleet to Spain while pumping up the infrastructure on the home island. If we've got coal, I'll start railing all of the core. There's no reason to continue the war with the Ottoman's anymore so I'll seek peace ASAP. As for research I'd like to go for Electricity then RP. I agree that Industrialization is important, but RP will help our workers alot and we can follow up RP with Ind. The Celts are going to be busy researhing the top path so shouldn't be any competition for TOE for quite awhile.

It's been a while since I've seen the save, how's our worker situation?

 

[Paul#42]

I'd like to propose taking out Spain entirely and save America for researching Rocketry while we're hammering the Celts.

That's the fighter's choice. At least it's not the easier target, America is weak compared to us, we are average to Spain... And America has 8 or 9 of its ten cities on the coast, Spain has at least three cities without coast.
But your reasoning makes good sense, too.

Choose what you like. Good luck!

The next great leader however I would use for a second army. If it's the only one (or no single one shows up) we have to patiently wait for Gandhi to screw the dagger into our heart...

@CKS: Funny strategy about the workers. First roading then chopping - I had to calculate a bit to find out: this makes sense

 

[Jove]

It's been a while since I've seen the save, how's our worker situation?

We have too few.

Right now we're about 250bpt short of running 4-turn research. We need a big boost, fast. The best way to do this is with population explosion.

Fauske can be a 1-turn settler factory with a granary.

The area around (and including) Leptis Magna can support 10 towns that can farm a floodplains tile. With a granary in each town, they'll grow from 1 to 2 in 2 turns. So, potentially we could get 5 workers/turn this way.

Right now we're looking at 7-turn research. We might as well concede that our science is too slow, and turn it off for say, 2-3 turns. Invest all the gold into settlers for the area, then granaries or workers.

We have 47 towns. None of them is size 12. Even numbers, let's just round it to 50 cities. If all were size 12 (and they won't all be), that'd be 600 citizens. Oversimplifying, if every citizen yields 3bpt (and they won't all), that's about 1800bpt, close to what we'll need by the end of the modern age. Libraries and courthouses aren't going to do it by themselves.

I consider this to be low priority, rather sell those techs for good cash.

Well, ok, sell them. I haven't run the AI research prediction yet. The idea is to sort of corral Brennus into researching Nationalism and maybe Sanitation for us. Having a lot of workers around, maybe to join cities and get drafted, then disbanded into granaries, courthouses, science-improving projects etc, would really help.

We don't want to draft from India's future core though. We're probably happier now than they will be...

I put dots where worker pumps could be:

 

[denyd]

Due to RL complications last night I wasn't able to play, but I should be able to get my turns done tonight. Thanks for the dot map. It looks I'd be better off adding workers & settlers on the home island than adding libraries, markets, courts & universities.

I don't have game access at work, can someone post a screenshot of Spain so that I can plot out our invasion strategy. Does Isabella have any wonders? Should I raze/replace or capture cities? Raze/replace would probably generate a lot of free slaves and reduce flip risk, but will take a while to get enough settlers over there to fill up the island.

A question for anyone out there. If we capture a city and there are 4 resistors and 4 citizens, then I set the 4 citizens to be scientists. If the city starves and 1 resistor joins the work force and now there are 5 citizens & 2 resistors did we get beaker credit for the 4 scientsts (12 beakers) or were they switched to citizens before the beakers were calculated?

 

[Jove]

@Denyd: I'm pretty sure that you get the beakers for 'unwilling' specialists. I've always played that way, but I guess I'd need some actual experimental evidence to be sure. Good question.

Crazy how you can play a game so long and not know specifics like this. Here's another essentially noob question: If you've got science set to 100%, then you build say a bank in a productive city, does the commerce get increased before its turned into science, or does only what's leftover get adjusted? I can't believe I don't know!

 

[Paul#42]

@Denyd: I'm pretty sure that you get the beakers for 'unwilling' specialists. I've always played that way, but I guess I'd need some actual experimental evidence to be sure. Good question.

I also think that way, otherwise I would feel pretty disappointed for the effort I always put into fresh captured cities

Crazy how you can play a game so long and not know specifics like this. Here's another essentially noob question: If you've got science set to 100%, then you build say a bank in a productive city, does the commerce get increased before its turned into science, or does only what's leftover get adjusted? I can't believe I don't know!

Well, if science is 100% it doesn't matter at all because the bank only applies to commerce generated as tax. So 0 g + 50% still makes 0 g even if you get 100 beakers in that town. And the 100 beakers you got before you built the bank won't increase (that's what libraries are good for)...

And IIRC, the bank is built after commerce is calculated, so no benefit for commerce that turn. The sequence is commerce before food before production, that's why on growth you get the production but not the commerce EDIT: after reading again I found out that this does not answer your question .

By the way: Merry Chrismas to everyone!

 

[CKS]

It's funny the things we never learn. I, too, think that the rearrangement of citizens and the loss of resistors happens after the commerce is assigned, without having ever tested it rigorously. Actually, my experience with specialists is pretty minimal, even after SGOTM 8, and I'm learning new ways of thinking in this game.

Good luck on Spain, denyd.

 

[denyd]

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm9/Jeffelammar_SG009_AD0750_01.SAV
Turn Log 2

Turn 0 – 650 AD – Trade Magnetism to Celts for WM + 5gpt + 20g + Navigation – Starve down a couple of cities to reduce flip risks – Switch Channel City to Magellan’s Voyage (due in 12 so it can be changed) – Switch a couple of galleon builds to infrastructure (we have 5 caravels to upgrade and we don’t have enough units to fill them)

IBT: Celts start Magellan’s Voyage – Celts build JS Bach’s Cathedral in Entremont

Turn 1 – 660 AD – Send Trebuchets to nearest barracks city for upgrading – Send caravels to nearest harbors for upgrading – workers road, chop and irrigate – Drop research to 80%

IBT: Swap TM to Spain for WM + 20g – Stavanger barracks->berserk – Fasund harbor->library

Turn 2 – 670 AD – Upgrade another caravel & a trebuchet – Aside from that just more worker movements and units heading for upgrades

IBT: Trade TM to Celts for WM + 17g – Odense University->market – Rusicade harbor->library

Turn 3 – 680 AD – Just moving and working – Able to drop luxury rate to 70%

IBT: Discover Steam Power research Electricity (due in 8 @ 100%) – Hanging Gardens is obsolete – Iron Works message – Karasjok settler->settler – Tromso harbor->library

Turn 4 – 690 AD – Sign peace with Ottoman trading Steam Power for Medicine + WM + 2g – Stockholm can be switched to Iron Works (we should discuss this) – Upgrade another Caravel

IBT: American galley shows up

Turn 5 – 700 AD Begin sending workers to improve our core – Upgrade another trebuchet – Settler founds Lillehammer starts worker – First loaded Galleon headed to Spain (Carrying 3-unit Berserk Army)

IBT: Birka aqueduct->harbor – Bodo aqueduct->harbor

Turn 6 – 710 AD – Trade Metallurgy to Celts for Music Theory + WM + 85gpt + 40g – Workers heading for core – Pick up bored knight – Upgrade Curragh to Galleon

IBT: Stavanger berserk-worker – Spain starts Magellan’s Voyage

Turn 7 – 720 AD – First rail segment is complete – Upgrade final caravel to galleon (now 6) – Second loaded galleon leaves for Spain (4 Berserks)

IBT: Bergen bank->worker – Stavanger worker->worker

Turn 8 – 730 AD – Trade Medicine to Celts for Economics + WM + 73gpt + 100g – Switch Channel City to Smith’s (due in 16)

IBT: Bergen worker->worker – Aarhus University->worker – Stavanger worker->berserk – Karistad library->harbor – Celt’s starts Smith’s

Turn 9 – 740 AD – Switch Stockholm to Iron Works (due in 14) – Third Galleon (4 Berserk) leaves for Spain – 2nd Galleon on station near Spain – Note that India still does not have Writing

IBT: Trondheim builds Newton’s University starts worker – Bergen worker->worker – Birka harbor->market – Aarhus harbor->berserk

Turn 10 – 750 AD – 4th Galleon leaves (3 Knights & 1 AC) – 3rd Galleon on station – Settler reaches city site – All cannons garrisoning Aarhus – Electricity due in 2 – There is a galleon off Sabratha awaiting 2 units (1 Berserk is in route) – Note that once that berserk boards a galleon our entire home island defense will consist of 5 Warriors, 3 Pikes & 3 cannons – Smith’s due in 14, Iron Works due in 13. Stockholm (IW City) should probably start building defenders - The next player should split his concentration between completing the setup for taking on Spain and infrastructure.

I'll check in later with a map of Spain for invasion planning.

 

[Jove]

Wow! We're making about 160gpt off the Celts! It's really a lot more than I expected out of the AI on a Monarch game. Would they make more money growing into defeated American lands, or are they better peaceful?

-Just an observation: We're at 35% of world area. Celts are #2 with 20%. So we can take every inch of Spain without having to worry about going over the limit.

-On workers: I'm not sure we want to be building workers in core cities like Trondheim. I guess the vision I'm trying to push on everyone is size=12 core cities first. So, Trondheim, Channel City, Aarhus, Bergen, Oslo, Reykjavik, Molde, all size 12 ASAP via worker stuffing. We maximize our non-specialist science that way. Sacrifice shields for food if necessary. If there's nothing else to build, maybe units just to disband elsewhere for infrastructure. Or courthouses for when Ghandi come marching in.

-I don't think we need too many defenders. With the rail network under way, we could have maybe 10 attackers anywhere on the continent ready to repel an invasion. But for later... how many defenders will we need when the 'variant' aspect of this scenario really kicks in?

-I like it that we could build the Ironworks in Stockholm, but it's killing me that we're not taking advantage of the worker-spam possiblities there.
1 turn worker factory in Stockholm:
-Build granary
-Rail 3 floodplains, coal
-Grow to size 5.
With the granary, the city will only need 10 food to grow. At size 5, well, 3 floodplains = 15 food, 1 plains = 2 food, city center = 2 food. Then the coal hill adds the 20th food. 10 get consumed by 5 citizens, 10 leftover, so 1 turn growth!
Railed, the coal hill will give 6 (or 7?) shields. City center is 1, the plains is 1. That's 8. But we grow, so the added citizen should go to the iron, putting us at about 12-13. There's some corruption, but we appear able to get 10 good shields.
Ta-Da! 10fpt + 10spt = 1 turn workers
In our circumstances, it seems like 1 turn workers are the best possible product a city can produce.

-We have a lot of gold! We could spam about 6 workers in the North right away if we want.

Spain: It looks like the only real catch is that Madrid and Toledo are inland. Everything else is coastal and easy pickings for our berserks. Nice set-up. I don't think the AI will attack a full-strength army, so it could be used as 'cover' for going after the inland sites.

In text my tone sounds a lot harsher to me than I intend. We're quickly advancing, I just want to maximize everything...

 

[jeffelammar]

I didn't make it out here with a civ capable computer, so I am going to have to skip...

Sorry, but tis the season.

 

[TimBentley]

Looks good, I guess. I'll note that rocketry is the most popular tech for the AI to research, so there's no particular reason to keep America.

IIRC the Celts research should go something like nationalism->communism->steam power->fascism->industrialization->corporation->scientific method now (but we'll want to sell them electricity, after which they'll research replaceable parts). If we give them refining and steel, they could research combustion while we research towards electronics, then they'll research flight.

By the way, the order is gold, happiness (resistance ends first), food, shields.

 

[Jove]

@Paul#42: I think you did answer my question. No science bonus from commercial improvements, right?

By the way, the order is gold, happiness (resistance ends first), food, shields.

Thanks guys.
So, I guess population gets added when food is added. Only shields left. Since it's after happiness, 'new' citizens can't cause a riot for another turn.

Jeffelamar wants to skip. Anyone that got skipped want to skip in?

 

[Paul#42]

otherwise it should continue like:

Roster
Jove <== up but tries to get to some more exciting turnset by letting others sneak in
pindicator
TimBentley
Paul#42
CKS
denyd <== just played
jeffelammar <== is skipped for forgetting his most important piece of luggage

@Jove: I'm @work , could you (or anybody else) post a screenshot?

 

[Paul#42]

-On workers: I'm not sure we want to be building workers in core cities like Trondheim. I guess the vision I'm trying to push on everyone is size=12 core cities first. So, Trondheim, Channel City, Aarhus, Bergen, Oslo, Reykjavik, Molde, all size 12 ASAP via worker stuffing.

Rather keep those workers railing... - maybe join some slaves?

We maximize our non-specialist science that way. Sacrifice shields for food if necessary. If there's nothing else to build, maybe units just to disband elsewhere for infrastructure. Or courthouses for when Ghandi come marching in.

Or units to attack Spain. But courthouses are also nice - even because of their hard-to-measure effect on OCN.

-I don't think we need too many defenders. With the rail network under way, we could have maybe 10 attackers anywhere on the continent ready to repel an invasion. But for later... how many defenders will we need when the 'variant' aspect of this scenario really kicks in?

I don't think we need any defenders. We can draft some from one of our many corrupt size 12 cities (if we get Nationalism before we have hospitals everywhere)
I'd rather build aggressive units if a city becomes bored...

-I like it that we could build the Ironworks in Stockholm, but it's killing me that we're not taking advantage of the worker-spam possiblities there.
[...]
Ta-Da! 10fpt + 10spt = 1 turn workers
In our circumstances, it seems like 1 turn workers are the best possible product a city can produce.

Only if the town has not much more capability (production and research). Otherwise I'd rather have it reach size 12 soon and contribute. Ironworks should be more valuable than a worker factory (although this output is really appealing...)

-We have a lot of gold! We could spam about 6 workers in the North right away if we want.

I second that - rather rush a 36g-worker in a corrupt town than disrupting our production power houses.