SGOTM 9 - klarius

[killercane]

You might want to move that elite pike below Honingsvag to cover the 2 slaves. There are not likely to be any Celtic units within range as the 2 slaves (in Honingsvag) were just over there seeing nothing, but a regular MDI did run into the closest Celt town (SE of Richborough) 2 turns ago.

The workers roading around the home rim will be done in 2 turns IIRC, and really I would rather have them irrigating and working in Celtland with workers produced at home doing the less important jungle clearing. We should be able to spare a dozen in light of our need for science farms. There is an unirrigated floodplains by Odense that needs to be taken care of at some point.

After Lugdunum and the northern two towns, I dont think we are in a huge hurry to take out the Celts, and the slow MDI/treb/pike combo will do alright. Our absolute priority will be to get that land settled and irrigated. We'll need a couple more units shipped over to replace any losses we have on the Celt front.

 

[Northern Pike]

Good work against the Celts.

The odds of not getting a Great Leader in the number of chances we've had so far are about 28%.

 

[Obormot]

Nice looking science farms there, but the 2 celtic towns don't fit very well in the ICS pattern. I think we should drain them down by building workers and settlers. Setting up science farms is a top priority now imho, i would spend most of our money on rushing settlers and workers, with the exception of aqueducts in the rim cities. I would only research Physics and ToG and wait for AI to research other techs to save money.

 

[killercane]

You're right, we should definitely take into account moving at least the wine town 1 west to the hill when feasible.

I havent heard anyone mention Newtons or Copes, or perhaps I missed it. The options are Trondheim, Oslo, and Entremont, that I see. Oslo has a bit better commerce than Trond, but will take twice as long to build anything. Entremont as a settler factory will give us the better return on our investment. That leaves Trondheim, which can pump out Copes in 20 turns, which should complete right around industrial. Then Newtons soon after, perhaps partly in our GA. I wouldnt think we would want Spain to build either, since we have hardly any use for them techwise once they get Rep Parts for us.

 

[Northern Pike]

It's time to rush Entremont's courthouse and start hand-building the Forbidden Palace there. The Celts may not afford us too many more elite victories and we certainly can't count on Leader-rushing the FP.

As Killer suggets, we still need to treat Lugdunum with respect as an objective, especially since the Celts have stopped work on Sun Tzu there (is this as rare as I think it is?). I wouldn't make that attack until we can muster ten full-strength MDI for it, probably around the seventh turn of the next round.

 

[klarius]

A few remarks after briefly looking into the save before work.
Looks good overall.
Entremont:
I wan't my courthouse in Entremont.
Either to build workers/settlers even before FP, or handbuild FP. And I want workers at Entremont to configure the tiles how it fits best. This may mean to change tiles several times.
First it should go to +10 food. As long as we don't have FP there. it should grow to a bigger size so we can get 5+ uncorrupted shields.
At size somewhere between 7-9 we can then decide wether to just pump 2-turn workers (with +10 food), go for short-rushed settlers (get rid of the barracks there, it's not needed, and provides the 20sh short-rush point, if iron is connected), or configure it then for max shields for FP (BTW clowns and WLTKD may then give the best results).
In any case the iron has to mined again soon.

War with celts:
Slow down please, don't leave open space for Spain to settle. Rather pull back everything towards Lugdunum.
We are a monarchy, we don't need to be fast in wars, like in republic. And we want (at least I want) the whole celtic land for us, w/o the need of a spanish war.
Another small point: Renew our alliance/peace treaty with America. There is still hope that America will make peace at some time to give us war happiness. If you don't renew now, there will be a straight up peace come up in the interturn AFAIK.

Other nations:
I don't really like war with mongols now. Every progress we make there will need workers to make it beneficial. And every town we get will increase the rank corruption in Entremont, maybe even to the point where WLTKD wouldn't get a benefit anymore (WLTKD does not have the corruption limiting ability like a courthouse).

So now to one of the complicated, maybe useless, klarius plans.
I think it would really be nice to get the Ottomans into GA, by the wonder thingy (which means we may probably later just let them never build sipahi by denying them the resources).
At the same time I would like them to get contact to India, so India researches a bit faster (what is Gandhi doing - he should have enough commerce by now to research faster).
It gets a bit tricky, because their wonder build is so near.
The GA part is easy, just gift them the GW before they build their wonder.
Note: We want a short war after that, to take it back, but no alliances.

The India part is a little bit more involved:
Settle a temporary city on the incense 3nw of Trondheim. I'm not sure if it's worth the effort, but merging a celt or american slave would let it not autoraze and keep Osmans attitude towards us pretty nice after the war. Gift it to Ottomans. Let them keep it for a turn (no units inside their border) declare, take it back and give it up after that. That's the sequence to keep Osman nice towards us. If you don't care, forget about the slave merge and just autoraze it.
Now it would be really nice to do all this together with the Alesia action (gifting in 3 turns - retaking in 4 turns), so we only have a minimal war with Ottomans and we can trade again with them soon. But we may also let Osman have the cities for a couple of turns, to milk the gpt we are getting from him some more. Also if astronomy isn't around then (should be hopefully before), delay the war until it is distributed.
If we should get astronomy from Spain, don't get chemistry around on our continent, just astronomy. Osman should pay a nice price for it later when we have peace and he is in his GA. Just distribute astronomy.

Wonders:
Cops is for sure out of the window, with everybody having lots of wonder builds and the cascade starting soon.
We could start a prebuild for Newton's in a high commerce city (but only after it has a market). Not Trondheim, rather Oslo or Reykjavik. Still I don't think it's that important.

@home:
I would really like Odense to finally pump 2-turn workers. That will need either WLTKD (should be possible with 3 MP), or a mined mountain for the growth turn. We need workers. We still have a lot work to do and it's also not that terrible far to rails. If all works out as we like it we have just 3 techs to research to IA. If we then trigger our GA, rails will come quick and we need lots of workers. Building workers then is too late.

And BTW, I think after Lugdunum falls, it's time to disband the trebs for workers or settlers wavey: NP ). We are still paying unit support and units not working or being needed MP are a waste. We may also want to reduce our galley fleet. It doesn't look as if it will ever be necessary to block India. A few caravels should be good enough for our transport needs.

 

[Ronald]

@ Klarius: I agree with your comments but one I don't understand: Why do you want to increase the research speed of India?

 

[klarius]

India still hasn't even writing. I would really like to them have map making soon, so we can start to throw them off their rock.
They didn't come up with a new tech within the last 30 turns or so, although they are a monarchy and should have about 20 commerce. Gandhi must have put the science slider down quite a bit, when you consider that the techs he could be researching should be below 150 beakers for him already.
If he should go for a strange research path, we may end up in modern age, before he even gets map making.
So I rather think we could give him another contact now, when we have a cheap opportunity, than later when we may get desperate.
The other option would be to kill people unknown to him. But that would take quite some time, even for the celts, which are at the ropes by now.

 

[Obormot]

I think Gandhi has to many units to pay for his unit support. An AI at war will build many units and he cannot pay for them. He is propably on 50 turn research now and there is nothing we can really about it imho. Giving him a contact may help a little though. In hindsight i think monarchy was a mistake because we didn't even need blockading to slow Gandhi down.

I also think we need a court in Entremont. I wouldn't start hand-building FP (we still have much land to conquer and we are militaristic), short-rushing settlers or building workers sounds nice. I agree that our most important goal now is to build settlers and workers. Odense should be the worker factory, Entremont should build settlers or workers depending on how much land is left to settle and all corrupt cities should build settlers and workers. Most of our money should be used on rushing them.

 

[Ronald]

Preflight (450 AD):
Get familiarized with the save. That takes quite a while. Change a few settings, take a break before a really start playing.
Rushed courthouse in Entremont, renegotiate peace and alliance with america for 9g (all they have)

Turn 1: (460 AD)

Entremont builds courthouse --> FP, one more elite win, no GL

Turn 2: (470 AD)

Trondheim builds MI --> university

Turn 3: (480 AD)

Spain has Astronomy trades: astronomy for chemistry + 1gp; Carthago : 54g; Ottomoans: 50g
start physics at 50%
gift alesia and new founded svolvaer to ottomans (have to increase happiness to 30%, because we temporarily lost our incense); Found Haugesund

Turn 4: (490 AD)

Elite MI produces GL; rush library in Entremont; capture Cataractonium; Raze Lugdunum; decrease Happiness to 20% (can't run it at 10% though)
Declare war on Ottomans and retake Alesia and Svolvaer

Turn 5: (500 AD)

Entremont builds library -> FP, Rejkjavik builds marketplace -> university; rush FP with GL
Break for dinner.

Turn 6: (510 AD)

Entremont builds FP -> Settler

Turn 7: (520 AD)

Capture Gergovia; Entremont is now a 2 turn settler factory; Stavanger builds aquaeduct -> library

Turn 8: (530 AD)

Entremont builds settler; make peace with Ottomans for 62g +9gpt; trade chemistry for 44gpt + spices and for 8g + silks with Carthago
Reduce happines to 0; physics

Turn 9: (540 AD)

Found Lillehammer, Stockholm Marketplace -> university
Odense worker -> worker (with next mining of mountain it becomes a 2 turn worker pump);

Turn 10: (550 AD)

found elverurn

Burdigala could be taken, but I want to wait untill I can fill the space with settlers.
The three MI at the coast are there to prevent spanish ships from dumping settlers untill we have a settler there.
There are 2 settlers ready at the celt continent and 1 at home. I left them with their movement points for the next player to decide.
There are also some workers with movment points near Odense.
Odense has 2 temporary taxmen. After this turn it is a 2 turn worker pump.

The 2 turn settler factory in Entremont needs MM every turn. It works from size 5 to 7
The mined iron needs to be available for the growth.

I left the ship chain intact. It is probably no longer needed. So if we want to short rush something, we can.
Physics is due in 2 turns (don't forget to maximise the cash overrun next turn)

 

[Northern Pike]

Elite MI produces GL; rush library in Entremont;

We need a heart-attack smiley to represent my reaction to this misleading sequence. Otherwise, that sounds great.

 

[Megalou]

Hey, friends! I've skimmed through your effort and it looks really great. I have no idea how the other teams are doing but I wouldn't be surprised if you win again, although this time the conditions seem more unpredictable.

2 turn settler factory? Never heard of such a thing. I wonder if the others will spot the opportunity.

Good Luck!
...

 

[Ronald]

We need a heart-attack smiley to represent my reaction to this misleading sequence. Otherwise, that sounds great.

Sorry, that was not my intention I just wanted to say that I did something with the accumulated beakers

 

[ThERat]

finally we got a leader nd then I read this just like NP

Elite MI produces GL; rush library in Entremont

Ok, ok you actually did a very smart move, not wasting any shield.

By the way, did the gifting and retake help and India is finally making some progress? Or are they still lacking writing?

There is one confusing thing. Is Odense a 2 turn worker or settler factory?
Not being able to look at the save I am guessing, it's a worker pump.

 

[Ronald]

Or are they still lacking writing?

There is one confusing thing. Is Odense a 2 turn worker or settler factory?
Not being able to look at the save I am guessing, it's a worker pump.

They still lack writing.
Odense is a worker pump. I edited my notes.

 

[Obormot]

was my reaction too when i first read that thing It's good that we finally got a leader after so many elite wins.

India learnt Math instead of Writing. They might need 100 turns now to learn Map Making assuming they are on 50 turn research. We should be well in the modern age by that time. I wonder how many units do they have in Delhi. The unit support must be eating all their gold. It may be a good idea to reduce their unit support with berserkers, but first we should learn Espionage and plant a spy so that we don't kill them accidentally.

There is one confusing thing. Is Odense a 2 turn worker or settler factory?
Not being able to look at the save I am guessing, it's a worker pump.

Entremont is a 2-turn settler pump. The city view is really impressive Odense is a 2-turn worker pump. It is now at size 7 and we are draining it down by building workers so that it can work at size 6. We have 35 workers and 20 slaves, but that is not enough for good ICSing.

I got it and will play later today. Some suggestions about the save: most of our workers are now at home, i think we should transport them to Celtia, there is not much work to do at home left. Cutting jungle near Risor can wait. In celtia we should first irrigate the food bonuses and floodplains, then grasslands and only then plains. There is also a lot of forests there and chopping should be planned carefully to produce settlers in larger towns so that their fpt doesn't fall below 5. Some of our cities in Celtia don't have high food tiles available to work now and are irrigated plains, even forests. Of course we want the science farms to grow first and only then hire scientists, but in this case we may exchange the 1fpt tile for a scientist. BTW we have many taxmen hired, usually it is better to have scientistsbecause scientist gives 3 beakers and taxman only 2 coins. Or is it all carefully calculated to minimize overflow? I would also MM rim cities and some other cities for growth rather then production if happiness allows.

 

[klarius]

2-turn settler factory .

Now some less optimal points:

First, klarius, what a nice plan for giving India a contact . It just didn't work. And in fact it has some logic in hindsight. From the new town you have no visibility to Delhi. So no units get eye-contact.
Oh well, we live to learn.

We are still hoping for research help. That means as much help as possible. At the current tech level there are many optional techs open, which the AI also likes to research. So everybody should get up to speed. Mongols cannot research anything useful currently, because they are still stuck below education (note they still have a GA upcoming and may trigger it even on their own). We should change this.

@Obormot
For India and unit support, we may really want to kill some in Delhi, when we like our GA. Note they have done what I feared. They researched math, opening up other techs. It's possible that they don't need 100, but 200 or more turns to map making. And we don't really need a spy to start.
The game is modded so they have deity unit support, so if they are choking on units, they have to have something in the 30-40 range. Killing even 20 spears and swords fortified in a hill town will take some time and cost some berserks.
If unit support wouldn't be the problem, we still run no danger. There would be warriors at the bottom to know when to stop. They have no barracks judging from the reg unit on top, so no upgrades.

For ICS cities, I use the rule that every city not able to get +2 food, gets a specialist instead of a 1 food tile and builds a worker (or even settler, if there are upcoming chops). Then it grows again. Fishing villages may build a harbor instead, but generally no town should grow at +1 food.

I agree with Obormot about taxmen/scientists.
Taxmen may be the better option when your core has universities everywhere and maybe some science wonders. But we are at the libraries stage currently, so nowhere more than an 1.5 multiplier on commerce.

Edit:
One more point. The rim cities should build courthouses rather than universities. I think they give more bang for the buck currently.

Edit2:
If we get a second leader, I would like to see a 2-berserk army, mainly to see how it performs against Delhi (never had one).

 

[Ronald]

forgot to post the roster:

Ronald just played
Obermot up
klarius on deck
ThERat just played
Northern Pike
killercane

 

[killercane]

According to CA 2, and assuming that the info is right:

Income under Monarchy- 525, no unit support

Income under Republic- 767, -70 unit support

Disband the 20 mp warriors we have lying around, a pike or two, some galleys, and some or all of the trebuchets, and We are at positive unit support.

+242 differential, which will go down initially from starvation. We have 69 gold currently, 53 from other civs, and 20 to other civs so we will make money in anarchy (+specialists).

I think the expenses in CA 2 is broken as they go up with golden age or any other factors you put in. I havent used this feature that much. I had intended to calculate everything by city but this information looks useful.

After Physics in 2 turns would be a good time to do an anarchy.

ToG & Magnetism if no one gets it- 1813 each.

Steam- 3200

Medicine-2666

We arent at war weariness from india yet, with our only points being at the beginning. We might be with the Celts, but if we take those two northern cities we can give them peace for that to reset. We will be getting an influx of luxuries at magnetism for our people.

With an almost 50% boost to the economy, I think we will more than make up for the problems with anarchy and WW. I say we scrap Monarchy and change, and just chalk up monarchy as a mistake. We arent going to blockade India's tiles, and once we have railroads up we can simply blockade everything with workers until we deem the time as right to let them have some cities. We're at 550 AD and only at Physics, with no hope to get to 4 turn research in monarchy until late if ever!

Contrarian thoughts and opinions? I am just increasingly skeptical of getting them to Alpha Centauri in time with our current situation and it will take 1400 more beakers to get steam done .

 

[klarius]

Sure we would be better off, if we were in republic now. But you cannot make up for a long anarchy. If we draw 7-9 turns we fall back so far that the advantage of republic will never compensate for that.
And especially now that we just start our scientist cities an extended anarchy would be deadly.
The percentage difference between monarchy and republic will go done with every scientist we assign.
Also our empire is currently not configured for max commerce, but for shields, because most of the cities are working on infrastructure.
This enhances the advantage of republic a bit just now.

And one thing the income figure in CA2 is pretty irrelevant. It includes corruption, which increases overproportional in republic the more corrupt cities are settled.
Nevertheless it's true that we could make about 50% more beakers in republic the way our cities are configured currently. But that percentage should go down with more scientists and cities emphasizing high commerce tiles.