SGOTM 9 - klarius

[Ronald]

Guys,

I am skiing in the alps between tomorrow and January 3. Back on duty January 4, please skip me for this time.

Merry Christams and a Happy New Year to all of you

Ronald

 

[Northern Pike]

1400 AD, end of turn

 

[Northern Pike]

Well, I hope that delay inspired my-God-they-must-have-finished fears in certain circles.


1350 (0): We begin mining irrigated tiles around Theveste, Birka, and Carthage.


1355 (1): I sell Birka's cultural buildings.

The heroic Indian swordsman takes Birka, and doesn't raze it.


1360 (2): We occupy all Theveste's coastal tiles, so that the town can only work mined tiles. Judging by the fact that the population is still at eleven, resistance there must be massive.

Rocketry --> Space Flight.


1365 (3): There's no aluminum on our home continent, predictably. Three sources are on Entremont's continent, the Spanish have one, and one is currently unclaimed on the world's southernmost island. Settling the final source and making sure it has a harbour will give us the most options, so I'll do that.

We abandon Killer 6, after squeezing three settlers out of it.


1370 (4): The Indians build spearmen in Theveste and Birka.


1375 (5): We found Southern Pike on the aluminum island.

We lure Indian swordsmen out of Theveste and Birka. Rusicade and Hooverville should fall in two turns.


1380 (6): There's an American pikeman on Southern Pike's aluminum, and although Abe agrees to our demand that he evacuate our territory, the pikeman stays where it is. WTH?

Space Flight --> Superconductor.


1385 (7): The Indians take Hooverville and Rusicade, not razing either one.


1390 (8): This time Abe's pikeman actually leaves our aluminum when he agrees to our demand. What was that about?

We clean up some pollution next to Birka for Mohandas.

We found New Hammerfest on the island east of our continent.


1395 (9): Not much.


1400 (10): Even less.

 

[Northern Pike]

We should be able to lure the Indians into Carthage (with the Great Library) shortly after we discover the final space tech in five turns, but perhaps we should discuss whether this is what we want. There's something to be said for keeping the Indians at a tech level where they can build cheap units for a little longer. They're still in the AA, lacking Code of Laws.

Towns such as Molde, Karasjok, and Alesund shouldn't be surrendered to the Indians until they've completed their factories.

I've allowed the Indians access to Theveste's whale and rocks tiles. Perhaps, since the Indians now have to feed Theveste and Rusicade from largely the same tiles, we should abandon that blockade altogether.

We have workers fortified near Hooverville and Theveste to lure the Indians, but feel free to move them as you see fit.

We have workers in position to clean up Gandhi's pollution outside Birka again next turn.

Southern Pike's aluminum hasn't been hooked up yet, but we have a worker on the island.

Trondheim should normally produce one-turn bombers. It's on an AEGIS cruiser at the moment due to pollution.

All eligible tiles belonging to Leptis Magna, Leptis Minor, Alesund, and Karasjok have been lumberjacked, whether shared with other cities or not. All of Aarhus's inner eight tiles have been lumberjacked. The plains tile next to Molde has been lumberjacked. All the dyes tiles around Risor have been lumberjacked. In the Utica/Hippo region, only the tiles presently occupied by workers (and the deer tile, of course) have been lumberjacked.

We have a settler in position to found a second city on the eastern island next turn, as long as the next player thinks it's safe with respect to the domination limit.

The principal moment of danger regarding cultural expansions and the domination limit will come in eighteen and nineteen turns, when all the cities on our home continent getting their culture from the Internet will hit 100 cp. (Of course, we may have lost so many cities to India by this time that it won't matter.) Burdigala (three turns) should be watched too. There may well be other danger spots I haven't noted.

I've kept our options regarding Isabella open, such as they are. We could give her seven luxuries for the one we don't have. She has essentially no gpt to give.

I don't like to cut such things too fine, but we could change more scientists to taxmen and still get Superconductor in one turn.

We should try to make sure that all the cities the Indians take have granaries. This hardly costs us anything and might make their empire more productive.

I've left a few units with their movement just so they aren't overlooked. Our major stacks are in Trondheim and Entremont, of course.

Our main problem will apparently be getting uranium and aluminum to the Indians. We can gift the aluminum island to Isabella whenever we want, but how do we get her to make the necessary deals with Gandhi?

 

[Northern Pike]

India's new core:

View attachment 109616

 

[killercane]

Well, I hope that delay inspired my-God-they-must-have-finished fears in certain circles.

I was refraining from posting for the exact same reason! I have it downloaded and Ill try to get her done by the 2nd. Happy New Year to everyone.

 

[klarius]

Well, looking on the save, our problem is really to give cities to India.
Technology doesn't help currently, so it doesn't even matter how fast we get through the last techs. I would delay giving them Carthage. First they need some luxes and also urgently Reykjavik with the internet so they get culture expansion everywhere.

They still don't know Spain. So I would plan the technology gifting via America. America should then be at war with Spain and die soon after, so they can never sell any techs to Spain.
Then we look to get Spain in contact with India, so India can sell them techs for gold, gpt, luxes and resources.
This makes no sense until Spain has an aluminium to spare. If it doesn't work via Southern Pike, we have to gift them a city on the Entremont island (New Bergen or Fauske).
I would not buy the gems from Spain again. It's their only spare and they should sell it to India at some time.

We should start to evacuate our strong troops to the Entremont island. If we need them for anything in this game it's Spain. Weak defense troops could stay around in case India ever builds an elephant.

But all in all I see still a long game with a lot turns where nothing happens .

 

[killercane]

Looking at it today, I plan to:

Finish the necessary research.

Stop research and finish off manufacturing plant builds.

Get India contact w/ Spain somehow.

Get them as many fully equipped cities as possible; with the exception of Trondheim and Carthage.

Gift America at the appropriate time and kill them or prep to kill them.

Where do we want the Indian capital to be? We have not decided this as of yet that I have seen. Keep it where it is?

 

[killercane]

Preturn

ROP with Abe for when the time comes.

Load up a transport at Bergen and another above it to ship troops.

Turn 1

Science set to Satellites. I suppose we will want to go on to Espionage and Amphibious War next after saving up some gold and rushing things.

Entre- Army-> Pentagon

Birka tries to overthrow India. Rebuffed.

Pollution cleanup at Trond, back on 1 turn bombers.

More pollution at Bodo.

An Indian sword wanders North.

India still lacks CoL.

Molde- Rush Factory

Odense- Rush Man Plant.

Set up some more worker bait.

IT- India captures a worker near Leptis Minor.

Turn 2

Lumberjack in the dye area and rush some things after the chop, Factory in Alesund and Nuke Plant in Aarhus.

Disband some newly produced Modern Armor in closely threatened cities that need improvements.

Spain is in Republic and our army is average to theirs.

Transport some troops over to Entremont. All troops there will be stationed in Entremont itself. We have a lot of armies to fill, really more than enough to destroy Spain. After Pentagon I will pump out some more MAs.

We are at 64% land.

It- Silly Indian sword retreats from Leptis minor, would have put them closer to Spanish Izmit.

Turn 3

New Svolvaer founded on Eastern Island off the main continent on the rubber.

More rushing. We are low on gold now.

Switch to a settler in New Farsund. We can use him when the time is right to give India contact with Spain.

Switch up some scientists to save on our 235 beaker overrun on Satellites.

Turn 4

More Rushing. Indian sword to Leptis Minor again. Satellites in 1.

Nothing much else.

Turn 5

Satellites in. Set to Espionage. Majority of the specialists are set to taxmen. Only Ta Tu has scientists as far as I can see. I may have missed a stray one.

Offshore Platform done in Leptis Minor. It shoudl be taken next turn.

Will India be able to build Spaceship parts if mobilized? I would think not, but I dont remember discussion on this.

Our lone settler is in the capital if we need him.

There is a MA army in spain with a single Armor with it.

Turn 6

Leptis Minor captured.

Block some polluted tiles around Madrid from Spains workers.

We are at 64% land area still. I am taking a break. Troops are off Abes shoreline. I want to grab a spot on his island so he cant prevent landings. There is only one spot open right now.

I plan to investigate San Francisco if I can lure India to Carthage soon. Most of the captured Indian cities have starved to below size 4.

 

[killercane]

The save: 1430 AD, Turn 6 halfway through.

Comments? I will finish the rest tomorrow.

 

[ThERat]

I would lure India to Carthago now, we can still encircle the unit with ours so we can decide when he does enter the city.

There are a number of variabls not under our control and I think may make this game endless.

1. India needs 2 Spanish resources. Sure, we can take the Spanish cities and then let India take them, however that could take ages.

2. If India ever mobilizes, the game won't end since they are at AW with us.

I hope this was tested, but I doubt so....Let's hope we aren't in for an eternal yawnfest.

 

[Northern Pike]

It's bad that the cities we've surrendered to the Indians are losing so much population. So

1. We must make sure that every city we give up has a granary (Carthage, Stavanger, and Stockholm all lack them), and

2. The policy of mining almost all of a city's tiles before we let Gandhi have it is wrong, and should be reversed. In some cases we'll be able to mine a town's tiles after it's been surrendered and its population has stabilized.

I hope this was tested, but I doubt so....Let's hope we aren't in for an eternal yawnfest.

That may be unfair, but putting the aluminum and uranium in inconvenient places does look like an unnecessary refinement.

 

[klarius]

My comments:
Research espionage and build the agency fast, so we can get a spy in India.
After that I would research printing press, so we can get Spain in contact with India whenever we want.
Give up cities which will never be of use for Gandhi. No use building factories in small villages.

The resources should be no problem. We can gift cities to Spain and they will trade if they have spares.
If we manage to get India more advanced than Spain, by the America action we can also get Gandhi a lot of money by gifting it to Spain. We can still hope he stays in a cash rush government for some more time (a small hope - he will be able to buy commy from Spain).

Please listen to NP and build granaries everywhere. All these factories and manufacturing plants will not help a lot. Gandhi might even not be able to pay for their maintenace cost currently.

Gandhi urgently needs luxes and Reykjavik for culture expansion. If he gets the techs currently it will take him forever to build units.

 

[klarius]

Well, another post to clarify some of the game mechanics (though it might not help us much).
Space ship parts can be build in mobilization, so that's not the problem. But Apollo program cannot.
And in C3C this also means even if it's started before, it will switch away when mobilized.
I checked this for the human player in a save I had available.
I also did a test where I attacked an AI while it built Apollo. They mobilized and the Apollo build changed to a unit.

We could get India the space techs w/o nationalism, but then they still cannot even start Apollo, because they don't have aluminium. When they get in contact with Spain to trade for the alu they will also pick up nationalism soon.
The only hope would really be that they don't mobilize in our strange situation.
Maybe if we stay far away from any of their cities . I have no experience with phony wars that late in the game, so I don't know if it's possible for an AI to stay away from mobilization.

We may want to build Apollo and some spaceship parts. There are rumours that the AI puts more priority on space if they are in a real race .

I'm not quite sure how demobilization works for the AI. For the human player one war ending (by peace or destruction of the civ) demobilizes even when at war with others.
I remember reading somewhere suspicions that the AI can mobilize and demobilize at will. But I have not the slightest idea, if there is a way to trigger this.

I think we should get a spy in India first, then do the tech thingie and watch what happens.

 

[killercane]

Carthage, Karasjok, and Leptis Magna-> Granary

Oslo-> Airport

Research shifted up for Espionage in 3.

No pollution for once.

Turn 7

No Indian movement.

Block some more Spanish tiles.

Granaries built, set to finish important production builds. Carthage is on a bank for now, feel free to change that.

Entremont-> Prebuild for Intel Agency.

Land Troops in America. We will have two boatloads there, Im not going to waste money on looking at how many units they have. We can rebase all of our bombers down there the turn we give the Indians the Library.

Turn 8

Airlifting more units to Celtia.\

Finish off some builds, this is really not necessary until we can get the Indians to produce more units.

Clean up pollution at Carthage.

Turn 9

Intell Agency built-> Modern Armor

Renew expired furs deal with Spain for all of our spare luxes.

Pollution hits en masse.

Rush 3 manufacturing plants in Leptis Major, Alesund, and Karasjok.

Plant spy is successful, and we have an agent in Theveste.

Look at Hooverville as well.

India does not have the gold to support any of the cities we are giving them. None of these factory builds are going to do anything but give them gold after a forced disband. They still have a resistor in Hoover.

Perhaps we should go back to the gifting technique of gifting to America and then back to India once they have a unit outside a city.

Turn 10

India threatens Bergen AND Odense.

Pollution Cleanup

The rest of the workers are unmoved.

Rebase some MA to Entremont. Move some MA to Spain.

 

[killercane]

Theveste, the Indian Capital.

 

[killercane]

A shot of Hooverville

 

[killercane]

The save

Some workers and a transport unmoved.

 

[killercane]

Its going to take them forever to do anything, from building units and taking cities to actually building the ship.

I suppose we can keep America around for the next twenty turns, keep Nationalism and knowledge of Spain from India, and hope that they build Apollo before they get contact. Does Satellites and revealing the world give them contact? I dont think so but the thought did occur.

America is still ungifted and backward. I dont think cultural expansions will hurt us at the point they happen with all the lost cities.

Sending out warriors to get a leader for india isnt very viable since all their units are regulars and they will be just as likely to use it on the Forbidden Palace I would think.

We have the gold to rush whatever we want really within a few turns, and most things have been rushed in the core and outlying cities that we want India to have.

Spain is a low threat on the Space race, especially if we keep blocking their polluted tiles. I dont know if this will make them even madder or not. The ivory we have sent them for furs could be a problem if India threatens our Ivory city, but IIRC we have 3 sources, not just the 2 there.

The Aluminum problem will have to be handled later.

 

[klarius]

Well, there is still the small problem that building Apollo requires aluminium.
The only way to get aluminium to Gandhi within a decent time is to get a second source to Spain and let them trade.

I don't really know how to proceed, but I would rather go for gifting the techs via America as fast as possible and then let India (but not America) trade with Spain, so Gandhi has money, luxes (we should gift more cities with spares to Spain) and resources to handle our cities.
But then Gandhi will pick up nationalism for sure. I don't think that the alternative of keeping Gandhi poor (gift all techs also to Spain so he has nothing to sell), will work any better.

A few small points:
We could research genetics and still build Cure for Cancer and Longevity in our old core for Gandhi.
I still don't like RoP rape on America. If we do so we will be kicked out of Spain at some time.
We have lots of transports and still some Berserks to clean a landing spot (we also could do it with bombers). The units just have to be brought into a position outside of America. Breaking the RoP treaty is not the problem, but declaring inside the border is.

Build settlers and workers in the small cities on our home island. These should never go to Gandhi, he will just feel the temptation to build the most expensive space ship parts there. But he needs a lot more slaves or will never be able to handle pollution.

Don't take Spain to easy. They can decide to declare any time on us. They probably have tons of units (deity unit support). At some time we should raze their big cities, not only because of spaceship, but the game may last long enough that 100k may be a problem. Still we want them to be able to trade with India.