SGOTM 9 - klarius

[Northern Pike]

Thanks for conducting those experiments, Klarius.

I haven't looked at the save yet and this is just a quick reaction, but couldn't we get the Indians out of mobilization, theoretically, by involving the Americans in our war with them and then stabbing and destroying the Americans? If this might work, we should not dispose of the Americans now.

Also, are we giving up too quickly on the idea of keeping Gandhi from Nationalism? Again, I'm not looking at the save so this could be wholly misguided, but might it be possible to give Abe two aluminum and two uranium so that he'd trade them to India?

 

[ThERat]

Again, I'm not looking at the save so this could be wholly misguided, but might it be possible to give Abe two aluminum and two uranium so that he'd trade them to India?

you forgot a very important issue and that is that by mistake, America and India are at constant war via faulty setup.

 

[Northern Pike]

Ah, of course. The Americans might still be useful for getting the Indians out of mobilization once, though.

 

[klarius]

Ok, I made up my mind about the strategy I would like us to follow. I have no idea if it will work out, but still .

Gift Spain an aluminium city and a (two) wines city. Make sure that they are connected.
Get Carthage to India as fast as possible, while still looking to get them other important towns.
Immediately gift America all techs except nationalism and military tradition.
Declare on America (w/o units in their land).
Ally Spain and add in a lot (maybe 500-600) gpt.
Bring Spain in contact to India either right away or within a few turns. Also gift Spain spare cash at this time.
That should get India lots of money, all needed resources and 3 luxes.

Further things:
Get all military away from India. Especially all fast movers should leave the home island.
The (cheating) AI probably knows that they threaten their new cities, even when far away.

Maybe try gifting cities to America first for the next few towns, but not for Carthage (we don't want to rsik it flip back from India to America).

Prepare to raze the big spanish cities (not soon). They shall not be able to build Manhattan. India can use Manhattan as a prebuild for something useful (it can be build even in mobilization).
Note, Madrid will not be easy. There will be quite a few mechs.
Also we have to look that they still retain harbors to connect resources to their (new) capital and to India.

Build infrastructure in celtic land where needed. Don't forget we will soon have much less luxes. Big cities will probably need temple and cathedral.

Don't kill America currently instead rather block Spain from doing so.
We save America for a shot on breaking mobilization when India has accumulated 500sh into Manhattan, timing this with Manhattan completing in Entremont.

Roster:
Ronald up (are you back ?)
Obermot on deck
klarius
ThERat
Northern Pike
killercane just played

 

[Ronald]

I am back and can play. Will look at the save tonight and post my intentions.

Ronald

 

[Ronald]

I checked the save file. I agree with the strategy klarius posted and will play my turns in the next 24 hours.

 

[Ronald]

Gentlemen,

When I tried to start civ3, I could not load it. Something is wrong with the CD-ROM. I cannot start civ3. I need to get a new copy. This will take a while.
Please skip me in the meantime.

I am very sorry about that, was hoping to lead India to the biggest GL elevator in history of the game

Ronald

 

[killercane]

That sounds like as good a strategy as we can ask for Klarius; relying on the AI is all theoretical anyway. Printing Press is on 10% and can be moved up to get it in 4 with scientists, most of the specialists are tax men right now.

ROP with America ends on turn 10 of Obormots set.

If we break the blockade at Theveste, all of those units on the home island can be sent to celtia/Spain within a few turns. And dont forget the airports as well. Perhaps another transport in the Celtic-Spain channel to ferry airlifted units from Entremont would help out. There is only one there currently.

 

[ThERat]

Obormot has been pretty inactive these days in the SG's. He has got a new job and I am not too sure whether he can play his turns.

 

[Obormot]

Yeah, thinks are pretty busy for me these days. But i got it and i'll try to play my turns tomorrow. I agree with klarius about the strategy.

 

[klarius]

Nice that you are here Obormot.

But wait with playing and redownload the save after AlanH has fixed the save acoording to:
Maintence thread

I pm'ed Alan to modify the save right away.

This changes the strategy somewhat:
America is of no value and can go anytime it's convenient.
We could combine the technology gifting with some city gifting and retake the cities.
Still Spain needs to be at war with America after that, because America has to survive for at least one turn, where they shouldn't trade with Spain.

And I still would like to eliminate America after that without RoP rape. That means no units near San Francisco, while declaring war. The RoP treaty is unimportant. That just takes our trade reputation down one notch further and I don't think we should delay the tech/Carthage action for that.

 

[AlanH]

It's done. New save is at http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm9/klarius_SG009_AD1450_02.SAV

 

[Obormot]

pre-flight:
- Gift alluminum and wines cities to Spain.
- Gift Bergen and Odense to America (our core cities threatened by India).
- Adjust specialists to get PP in 4 turns.
- Start transporting fast units from the home island to celtic land by boats and by air.
- Rebase our bombers closer to San Francisco to be able to take the city with berserkers and prepair to move units out of America next turn.

1455
- Indians capture Odense and Bergen.
- A sword comes out of Leptis Minor, i'll try to bring him to Carthage with workers.

1460
- Indian sword decides to pillage our airfield instead of capturing the worker. OK, he should still get to Carthage in 3 turns though.
- Another sword comes out of Rusicade. Will lead him to stavenger.
- Start building 2 carriers so that we can jump indian capital from sea using bombers and berserks.

1465
- Indians move one step closer to Carthage by capturing a worker. Moving away fast movers must have worked since they now leave the worker alive. I move some settlers that i built in ICS cities on the home continent to Carthage to provide them with some slaves.
- Indians also threaten Stavenger and i gift it to America.
- Odense and Bergen have lost some population since i last looked at them. It can only be starveation because India is now a monarchy. They need the internet for those border expansions...
- We now have a stack of bombers that can attack San Francisco at any time and a berserker that can capture it from the sea. We also have 8 armies with 4 modern tanks in each in Spain

1470
- We get PP and i shut down science.
- Indian sword makes another step towards Carthage and will propably get it next turn.
- I gift the techs to America and get 13 gold from them. I then declare war on america and ally Spain for 700 gpt.
- I use workers to lure another indian sword and an indian archer to Molde and Hareid.
- Since our territory is cut into halves by indian land i set up a ship chain to transport units from one part to another.

1475
- Indians capture Carthage and get a bunch of slaves and all the techs
- They also threaten Hareid Molde.
- I sell contact with Gandhi to Isabella. I will leave America alive for this turn so that the gpt deal with Spain lasts and Ganhi can get the gold from Isa.

1480
- Bad news. Indians raze Hareid and retreat from Molde. Something must have scared them.
- They got communism from Spain and revolted to it.
- I used espionage to look into every indian town. They still have lots of resistors, but this is not the major problem. They didn't get any luxes or allumium, but got rubber and oil and are now busy building tanks, mechs and TOWs everywhere (and it takes them forever to build it). Spain got all techs except Robotics and Supercondutor. With such production it'll take too long for them to build units to capture remaining cities.
- I capture San Francisco and America is destroyed. This shoud help Ganhi against war weariness a bit and also save him from flips. Hopefully he'll sell Robotics and Superconductor and get some luxes too...
- I arrange some units to be able to capture Theveste and make a palace jump for Gandhi, but there is no need for that if he stays in communism.

1485
- OK, i should have expected this: Ganhi allies Isabella agaist us. I capture Madrid, Barselona and Toledo with MA armies. I also capture some of their cities on our home continent and New York on the celtic continent getting a leader. The wines and alluminum cities are now disconnected because they don't have a harbour. OK, i'll let them capture a nearby city with a harbour, still hoping they can trade.
- Gandhi doesn't do anything, all his units are garrizoned.

1490
_ Spanish capture a harbour city in celtland and the harbour is not destroyed.
- Espionage reveals that Gandhi has got wines, furs and alluminum . The situation with happiness has improved and now he is building units at decent speed (~30spt in his best cities). Still didn't move any units out on this turn though.
- I decided not to risk our precious MA armies and abandonned the spanish cities. Should have razed them immidiately for some slaves. I found a city in Spain and rush barracks there to heal all our units. I also build an airfield with a worker. I rebase most of our bombers to Spain. Next player can decide what to do with Isabella.

1495
- OK, finally some action from Gandhi. Indian archer captures our worker and threatenes Reykjavic (internet city).
- I capture the last spanish city on our continent and remove all the fast movers again. I kill lots of various units from warriors to tanks in Spain and raze Seville for 10 slaves. I don't want to advance any further in Spain because that would require taking away luxes and alluminum and we need to save that for Gandhi.
- I abandon 2 useless towns because we reached domination limit again.

1500
- Indians capture Reykjavic, internet and 24 settlers. There is also a sword that can propably be directed to Stockholm.
- I didn't move anything in Spain yet, i leave it to the next player.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm9/klarius_SG009_AD1500_01.SAV

 

[Obormot]

Indian core now...

 

[klarius]

Looks good .

I got it and think I'll play right away.

Not much to discuss anyway.
I intend to raze more spanish cities and build some villages to get them the resources back.
For India, not much to do.
Let them have anything they want and hope for the best.

 

[klarius]

Played- The save

Gandhi is getting to a nice sized empire. But he isn't interested in a spaceship.
He also razed a lot of our nicely prepared cities.
He has several modern armor and ignores all worker and settler bait.

Turn log:
Preflight:
Abandon New Bodo. That connects Carthage to Theveste.
Order and rush a few settlers in Celtia. I want to raze more in Spain and then gift them small villages with the resources.
Change science to Genetics. I will try to build Longevity and get it to Gandhi, so the cities regrow faster.
Bomb and raze Santiago. Spain still has 1 alu, which it delivers to India. Later I will gift them a village with a second so they can renew.
Some ships are bombed and sunk and then another spanish city falls.

IBT:
India captures Molde with a tank. They move in on Stockholm.

Turn 1 1505:
Idiotic Isa has sold the harbor in Augustadorum. Make peace and pick up communism for 150gpt in the deal.
I then also gift her 2000g hoping that she doesn't sell any more harbors.

IBT:
Gandhi takes Stockholm.

Turn 2 1510:
Settle three cities and gift them to Spain to get them the resources back.
Move a few troops.

IBT:
Gandhi takes Aarhus (dyes). Somehow he doesn't take more than one city per turn.

Turn 3 1515:
Not much.

Turn 4 1520:
Waiting ...

IBT:
Utica. Gandhi is now happily ignoring all the juicy workers and settlers.

Turn 5 1525:
Zzzz

Turn 6 1530:
Isa has done it again. She lost her harbor in her capital. Will build a few more cities with harbors to gift.
We have genetics and I switch prebuilds over to Longevity and Cure for Cancer.

Turn 7 1535:
Not much to do. And Gandhi is turtling . He has all resources and quite some production, but now he builds modern armor and ships.

Turn 8 1540:
Argh, Isa is still losing harbors. I gift her a new one, but currently she also needs our harbors.
I gift her genetics in the hope she gets some money from Gandhi (he has more than he needs currently).
Gandhi is still not interested in our good cities.

IBT:
Ouch, now Gandhi is on a razing campaign. He razes three good cities

Turn 9 1545:
Ok money of Isa and Gandhi should be ok now. Longevity is ready in Trondheim and I hope Gandhi will taje it now.

IBT:
Gandhi captures Trondheim, but razes some more cities.
Several riots, because we are low on luxes.

Turn 10 1550:
Not much again.


Well, I don't really know what to do next. Sure one has to look that Spain can trade with India.
Currently it's ok, India has all resources.
But still Gandhi isn't interested in the spaceship.
Maybe that changes when he thinks he has enough military, but that may take quite some time .

 

[ThERat]

ok, got it, will play tomorrow.

The game is a stage where it is frustrating and no more in our hands to get closer to the win. In my mind we have played an excellent game so far doing almost everything right.
Now, could the AI also do the same? Maybe we should stop the Indian expansion? maybe they will continue to build units due to more cities so they have a certain ratio? I think blocking them in the land they cyrrently have might be a better approach then letting them expand? I don't really know, just guessing here.

 

[Northern Pike]

Well, it's hard to know how we stand, but it's good to see some action.

Approaching Rat's point from a different angle, doesn't the fact that the Indians are in communism establish a definite limit on how many cities we want them to have? What would that be?

 

[klarius]

Sure, getting them more land will not help them building a spaceship. But I also don't know what they do if we try to block them.
They may build one unit after the other for suicide.
Try what you think best.

One thing, I would like is to move the capital away from Theveste. The city is pretty hopeless.

 

[ThERat]

I had 10 turns that can be summed up by this picture

The Indians proceeded to raze almost all cities, so I built workers and settler for them. Did not help so far.

Our former nicely improved land is now a wasteland. I blocked the Indians in the north and they have not really staged huge attacks there.
But on my last turn I saw the first convoy leaving for overseas, maybe they can take the Spanish resources
I let our capital finish Cure for Cancer for more happy people, maybe we can reduce lux further now with all our former core cities gone'
We are building military there to counter the potential attack, have also started to build up the new core a little.

The only positive note is that we got rid of Theveste and India's capital is Trondheim now

the wasteland