SGOTM 9 - klarius

[killercane]

We wont have any war weariness until we are attacked/attack them.

According to Oystein's article, we will have to have 16 actual battles (or is that battles that they win when we attack or when we are attacked?) with the Indians before we hit stage 1 war weariness, and 31 battles before we hit stage 2. Thats a lot of warriors that they will have to drop or curraghs they will have to attack with. Heres an idea: Since they only produce 4 spt max, we could put 3 galleys on their rock resources, and they would only be able to produce a curragh every 15 turns or a galley every 30, is that right?

Edit: It seems we get 1 wwp per turn for having units in enemy territory. If that is true then its probably no dice there. Im off to read through this WW stuff again.


Level wwp
-1: - 0 wh (war happiness)
0: 0 - 30 normal, no effect
1: 31 - 60
2: 61 - 90
3: 91 - 120
4: 121 -
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Effect of ww in war:

All government:
Level -1: 25% happy people

Republic:
Level 1: 25% unhappy people
Level 2: 50% unhappy people
Level 3: 50% unhappy people
Level 4: 100% unhappy people

Democracy:
Level 1: 50% unhappy people
Level 2: 100% unhappy people
Level 3: Revolt

Number of unhappy people is round down. The number from each civ is added together and subtract 25% for police station and 1 for US (Universal Suffrage). The total number of unhappy citizen from ww can not exceed number of citizen.

War happiness is calculated independent in the same way. (No effect of improvements)
War happiness from several enemies could really help

Calculations of wwp:
All starts at 0.
Subtract 30 wwp if the AI attacks you, except when AI is provoked by:
- use of nuclear weapons
- failed spy mission
Anything else? Please tell me if you find something.

Add 1 wwp if you have units in enemy territory when in war. (In beginning of the turn)

The following describes the effect when the human is attacked, the penalty is given to both the human and the AI. If the AI is the suffering part, none gets wwp. (This has to be a bug.)

I have not seen any of these penalties for an AI-AI war.
Add 1 wwp for each
- lost unit without defence value
- improvement pillage/bombed
- unit that are bombard down to 1 hp
Add 2 wwp when a human attacker is defeated
Add 2 wwp when a unit with defence value is attacked. (Even if you win)
Add 16 wwp when a size 1 city is captured 17 wwp for bigger cities.
What if your cities get bombed?

Subtract 1 wwp if level >= 1, no enemy inside your territory and no units in enemy territory.
Subtract 1/20 of current wwp each turn in peace (round up)

Assume you sign peace when you just have gotten 100% ww in republic (121wwp) and keep out of his territory. Then you will lose 8 wwp the first turn, 7wwp the next. It will take 19 turns to get down to level 0, and 43 turn until the war is totally forgotten.

 

[Obormot]

I don't remember the WW article very well, but i think you only get WW points when you loose units or cities (I often keep a phony war or 2 for war happiness when a distant AI declares war and the effect doesn't fade for a very long time if there is no active fighting). If we really decide to keep India small and backward for a good while we can minimize our losses.

Edit on crosspost: It looks like if we kill their units before they are given a chance to attack us we won't get much WW. We'll can loose 15 times before getting stage 1 WW.

 

[killercane]

Just read it again, and if we attack and win, then no weariness. That means they will have to either attack us or beat us by defending 16 times. If they can only produce 3 spt (we can take away another shield producing tile by planting a city on the southern forest or grassland), we can go a really long time in republic with no detrimental effects. We might think about planting our capital on that bonus grass 1E to keep them from eventually landing on the mountain tiles.

I would think we would at least have MDI/longbows/berzerks before they could land units.

 

[Northern Pike]

Yes, that's a strong case for republic.

 

[killercane]

The save will be released in a few. Whats the play order? Are we moving east, worker to cow, and then post what we see?

 

[klarius]

I have time now and will just play the first 20.
I don't think there is a need to discuss within the turnset; players should play their sets unless something really surprising comes up.
I think we can just let the roster develop, by everybody grabbing a first turnset when available.

So, I got it.

 

[klarius]

The save

Ok we are under way.
We have a lot of good land to work with.
India is located in an inland sea, but has extreme good water tiles. That won't be easy.
We just met our first other contact and may trade now, before hitting enter.

Turn log:

Opening the save. Sweet water east, salt west.
India, Mongols, Carthage, Ottomans, Celts, America, Spain in the game.
Quite a bit alphabet around, better get started towards a slingshot.

4000:
Move settler and worker east.

1-3950:
Worker on cow reveals another BG. That's good enough for me, settle, wasting a BG.
It's the only tile which is both on coast and fresh water visible.
Train warrior. Science to 100% writing. 50 turns for now, but should go down soon.

2-3900:
worker irrigates

3..5-3850..3750:
zzz

6-3700:
warrior->curragh
wa1 east, wo1 roads

7-3650:
wa1 e, reveals another salt water coast and lambs

8-3600:
wa1 n, a plains cow. I think I know our second city site. Will train a settler after the first curragh.

9-3550:
wo1 ne, wa1 n.

10-3500:
wo1 mines wa1 n.

11-3450:
Culture expansion.
Curragh->settler.
Work lake for more commerce.
wa1 n.
cu1 2sw. Delhi has also some whales. And Gandhi has merged in his worker (Delhi size 3 already).
This will not be easy to hold him backwards. He will have very good commerce, every tile he works has already 2 commerce in despotism.
Gandhi has BW already.

We will also get our first war weariness point IBT, by having the curragh in his territory.
And if we really want to keep him backwards, I think we have to block his coastal tiles at some time.
So it's really a question, if we can afford republic in this case.

IBT:
Holy Indian cow. Gandhi has trained a curragh and attacks our curragh. We win getting promoted 3/4. Another war weariness point (or 2 ?) for defending.

12-3400:
Trondheim grows, lux up.
cu1 sw s. Note, differential movement will our seafaring curragh not be faster on coast. It looks a lot like Gandhi is confined to an inland sea.
wa1 n.

13-3350
cu1 w-nw-w (using sea differential). More whales for Gandhi. Delhi shrunk to size 2 and has a spear. Must have pop-rushed.
wa1 n

14-3300
cu1 3n. It's definite - Gandhi is locked in an inland sea. And our curragh isn't coming out in the moment.
wa1 n.

15- 3250
cu1 2e - on the way home.
wa1 n

16-3200
cu1 s se
wa1 n
wo1 roads

17-3150
cu1 home fortifies
wa1 n
Trondheim grows.
India has pottery.1

18-3100
settler ready - warrior
lux down
settler east
wa1 n

19-3050
wo1, settler ne
cu1 on lake
wa1 n

20-3000
wa1 n - we meet Temujin.
wo1 roads
settler ne

I didn't trade with Temujin. He has to know somebody else, because he has no gold.
We could get pottery+BW+CB for alphabet+5. Or masonry for the same price.
I wouldn't do the masonry deal. That would make masonry cheaper for Gandhi.
We may even want to wait until we meet somebody else.
On the other side, the sooner we get alphabet to the people who have masonry the more likely they are to research math for us.
I would pull the trade in a high research game. We soon will have curraghs on the free ocean to find the others and do other good trades.
Ugly one doesn't know anybody who has alphabet or he wouldn't value it so high.

The settler is in position to settle and let the curragh out.
I would like the capital to build another curragh after the warrior and the new city to build a curragh first. Early contacts are crucial for high research. Even more important than extreme expansion.
MM the capital to get additional commerce from the lake whenever you have more shields than needed.
After that we may think of a granary.

 

[killercane]

Hmm Ghandi Cove eh? And he has whales. 3 WW points already and Ghandi is screwing with our GL slingshot. Very interesting setup.

Poprushing a spear? Whatever makes him happy I guess. Gyathaar is a big fan of jungle to bracket expansion.

 

[klarius]

Eh, killercane make this 5 WW points for the way back.

Some more comments.
We cannot avoid probably that the Mongol scout will meet India. So they will soon have a trade partner. Okay we soon will have writing so we could ally Mongols, but we barely can afford the embassy. Also AI allies are not very reliable.
Overall I think that the idea of the Great Library slingshot all the way to the spaceship will not work out.
Gandhi will get through the AA at a decent speed. In MA he will get problems, if we confine him to his island, but nevertheless get to education at some time.
It's no use to have him backwards for a long time and then get him just to the middle of the IA.
The only chance I see there for the extreme slingshot would be to remove Gandhi from his island with berserks and best have him a single settler nation in a mountain.

An alternative might be to block all his tiles early, but that needs the Lighthouse and will make republic a complete for a long time.
I still think we should look, if we find some other land and let Gandhi have our current core. Note we could ally Mongols, gift them our cities and let Gandhi take them to avoid war weariness.

Well, all quite unclear and not easy to decide which way to go know. But one decision we have to make soon. That's if we want to go republic and risk the war weariness problems or if we want monarchy and will have trouble to get our research up later.
I think monarchy is the safer bet, so I would look to buy mysticism in the time we need to writing (should be available somewhere by then) and do polytheism-philosophy-monarchy.

A small remark about differential naval movement:
Our curraghs have 5 movement points. So they can move from coast out to sea, another tile on sea and then back to coast. Along the coast they would only move 2 tiles like non-seafaring curraghs. Suicide curraghs can really go far if they survive their first turn on ocean.

 

[killercane]

We have commerce poor land, with the only river a ways up north and the gems a bit further even. Its not very clear cut what way to go. The writing is on the wall saying we need to go monarchy, and Im not one to argue with that as it is surely the safe thing to do.

That being said, even stage 1 WW w/ republic would be better than monarchy. I would think we can get a ring of cities around him with granaries, markets, and harbors before he gets to education. That is if there are solid building sites there. I would just hate to be stuck on the continent without a viable second core available on another continent if we give him our cities too soon.

If we destroy the Zulu before PP, he wont have any contacts. Though if there is someone to the west, that idea is shot. Its all a lot to figure out in the next 2-3 turnsets. At least we have a free passageway to palace jump him later.

 

[klarius]

We are seafaring. Our commerce should come from coastal towns.
We already see quite a few water resources we can use. As soon as we get mapmaking, we should build our 30sh harbors and work a lot coast. Monarchy (I'm pretty set for it), will already make every fish and oyster a food resource.
A problem is that many of the towns will need culture expansion. ToA would be really nice to have, but is probably too expensive to build.
Speaking of wonders, I would like to have the Lighthouse really soon.
Also an option here would be to play it noob like and build the pyramids in the capital soon, instead of going for the usual granary and settlers. Maybe really play it 20k like, building a lot of wonders in the capital for Gandhi to take when we are ready for it.

 

[killercane]

We are seafaring. Our commerce should come from coastal towns.
We already see quite a few water resources we can use. As soon as we get mapmaking, we should build our 30sh harbors and work a lot coast. Monarchy (I'm pretty set for it), will already make every fish and oyster a food resource.
A problem is that many of the towns will need culture expansion. ToA would be really nice to have, but is probably too expensive to build.

There has to be some solid math to help us come to a conclusion; I keep thinking about Wacken's computation for their Forbidden Palace in SGOTM 8. The question is whether we can make up for the lost production and commerce of a second anarchy in the Middle Ages.

Assuming no corruption and no unit overruns, every land tile in our immediate territory= double commerce under republic. Coast= 50% bonus. We will surely be working more land tiles than coast for the majority of the AA/MA/until the Great Switchover (tm). Even after 25% unhappy, I would think we would come out better after the lessened corruption. We wont be in position to run a lot of specialists for a while.

ToA may make a lot of sense depending on how big we want our cities to be when we hand them over, which is a problem I hadnt really considered. If we keep cities smaller by building a lot of workers to irrigate and then hand over, then the Indians will have less unhappy Viking peeps to deal with, more productive Indians, and a load of workers. That thinking points toward monarchy and the Pyramids again. ToA, Pyr, Great Libes, AND Great Light is a lot of damn shields though; I think we'll need to choose carefully.

 

[Obormot]

I am pretty much sure that we will be able to keep our WW low if we don't give our cities, but the main benefit of monarchy is that we'll be able to block Delhi's tiles with our ships. This will certainly make the GL slingshot possible, while it is propably not posswible in republic with all those good tiles around Delhi. So my plan would be making monarchy slingshot, blockading Delhi completely and using magic GL capture to drag indians into modern age. I don't like monarchy, but i don't like relying on Gandhi to do research even more.

As for the short term stuff: I don't think we should build any wonders in Delhi because it looks like the only city that can be a settler pump. I think we should build a granary there after that warrior, while the second city builds several curraghs. I forgot about differential movement, with this setting it is indeed a good idea to build more then one curragh. We should explore the land to the south with the warrior, there might be some good land there, maybe a food bonus. If we don't find anything really good i would settle near those fishes/oysters to use the commerce for the monarchy slingshot.

 

[killercane]

Ive got it. Going to get some more explorin' done.

Edit:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm9/klarius_SG009_BC2550_01.SAV

3000- Pull the trigger on the BW, Pots, CB deal w/ Mongolia.

2950- Warrior-> warrior in Trondheim. Bergen founded and begins curragh.

2900- Trond grows, uses lake, another warrior in 1. Our northern scout reveals the Mongol borders, a wheat and some flood plains. Writing in 11.

2850- The Mongols now have mysticism. Set to granary in Trondheim.

2800- More land is spotted off the coast east of the dyes.

2750- Decide to check said land out. Looks like a jungly paradise.

2710- Bergen cur-cur. Curragh sent south.

2670- Ghandi has WC. Writing in 6.

2630- Granary in 6, another curragh in 3. No diplo changes.

2590- Maintaining status quo. Our northern explorer has been nosing around Mongol territory and is asked to leave IT. The eastern island seems to be just there, nothing interesting about it (for now perhaps).

2550- Mine completes on BG at Trondheim, start road. Working BG x2, cow, and lake, with growth in 3, granary in 4, needs some management. We have 5 gold, really need some more for deficit research. Mongol scout shows up at Bergen. Bergen has a curragh due next turn.

Writing is due in 3.

 

[killercane]

Mongolian lands

 

[killercane]

Eastern Island

 

[ThERat]

I could take it this afternoon.

A few comments.

1. Isn't it better to let the city growth wait until after the granary has been completed? This is a far more efficient way to fill it.

2. The eastern Island for sure has something in it, you don't think they have placed it there for nothing, I am sure some needed resources are there.

3. are we going for monarchy? I like what Obotmot said, monarchy and our capital as a settler/worker pump rather than wonders.

 

[killercane]

1. Isn't it better to let the city growth wait until after the granary has been completed? This is a far more efficient way to fill it.

Yes or immediate worker after growth; I was unclear on my need for management comment; it can be managed to grow in 5, build in 4; we can get another worker out in 6 turns either way for irrigation. It may have been a weedy move to not irrigate the plains cow yet, but the cap needs that BG and we can run a scientist for a few turns for poly in the cap with the faster growth. Thinking being 2 turns faster growth in cap w/ scientists @size 5 towards poly trumps 2 turns faster growth at Bergen w/ 2 commerce towards writing, if the math is right.

Monarchy sounds like the plan.

 

[klarius]

Micromanage the capital from the lake to the forest for granary in 3 growth in 4 is most effective.
Also MM Bergen from cow to lake. Growth will still complete the curragh. Writing will still be in 3 with bot actions.

We urgently need more workers. So I would build 2 workers after the granaray even though this wastes a lot shields.

Bergen needs its cow irrigated as fast as possible (should have happened already IMO - food is more important than shields currently).
Bergen should also build a granary. If we settle a city to get the lambs into play it can also work at +4 food.

My take for a dotmap for operation squeeze Gandhi:

 

[ThERat]

ok, looking at klarius suggestion and dotmap, I played it slightly different, but I think the result wouldn't be that different in the end
I planted town 3 in a slightly different locations (klarius city 3 is on top of a BG)
city 1 and city 4 as planned, but no city 9

ok, here my log:

made the mistake again to run Civ4, before Civ3 and had to restart computer in the midst of my turns, it was impossible to play that way
this resulted in 2 reloads, sorry AlanH, next time I restart computer immediately

Pre-Turn
change tile assignment so we get granary in 3 and grow in 4
we lose 2 gold and research goes down to 4, well this is the sacrifice

1.2510BC
we get another curragh, go for a worker next
good thing is that due to the growth in Bergen, writing dropped to 2 turns again

2. 2470BC
the Mongol scout will reach India soon and we can't do anything about it
reduce science to 70%, still get writing in 1

IT writing comes in, philo next
capital gets it's granary

3. 2430BC
northern warrior steps next to a barb camp
Trondheim goes for a settler next
we can only get mysticism for writing, if only we could meet someone else, unless we sell our whole economy
we cannot get both techs, I wait for a trade a few turns, maybe we meet someone else first

since Trondheim grows next turn, I turn one citizen into a scientist for 1 turn, we can still get the settler in 4 then
(6 + 8 + 8 + 8spt), this way we can speed up research

IT Ghandi comes to offer peace?????? I thought we are supposed to be at war forever??? Thus, I decline but something is broken here

4. 2390BC
Trondheim at pop5 requires lux to go to 10%

IT a barb comes out of the fog to threaten our worker at Bergen
Bergen produces a worker

5. 2350BC
need to send a warrior from Trondheim to protect our workforce
Bergen goes for a warrior next since barb activity disturbs us
in order to avoid us having to increase lux yet again, hire a scientist in Trondheim

IT barb warrior (2hp) moves next to our workers

6. 2310BC
warrior helps to protect those workers
in the north meet Ottoman, these guys don't even know the alphabet
get mysticism and 9 gold for that

Mongols and Ottoman do not have writing, but know only masonry, hold off another trade for now

IT that annoying barb actually attacks our worker protection, and
we get another settler, but I insert now a warrior first

7. 2270BC
reduce lux to 0%, but since our cities shrank, research is down quite a bit
send exploring warrior to the west from there, sicne our curragh will explore the north anyway

8. 2230BC
India knows masonry now as well, and the Mongols learned how to forge iron

wonder whether we should get iron working and masonry for writing
we want a fast tech pace, don't we
go for the trade, IW and 18g for writing to Mongols
IW to Ottoman for all their gold (10) and masonry

we can now run at 100% science and at -2gpt
our settler pair heading south spots iron on moutain there

IT Trondheim grows to 4 and we get 2 warriors, set it to rax as placeholder for us to decide what we want next

9. 2190BC
nth much

10. 2150BC
found Copenhagen in the south, it will not get the whale, but it has 3 BG and the gems + iron in its reach well worth it IMHO

curragh in the west discovers an obviously empty Island that has silks
leave another curragh with movement for us to decide whether we want to send it for a suicide run

philo will be done in 6, if someone gets polytheism in the meantime
we should trade it and go for monarchy
else we need to decide what we want to grab for free

of the foes we know, nobody is up a tech
Ottoman down writing
Mongols even
India down IW, writing and mysticism