SGOTM 9 - klarius

[ThERat]

I agree with the worker situation, it's not anyhting we like. But thats the decision we took when we said we go for G&R and for 2 wonders in 2 of our core cities.
My turns were basically
- optimizing the GL builds (I joined 2 workers, but if we really want the lighthouse, it is necesarry). And a lot of worker action was focussing on the 2 towns there (mining hills etc)
- settler and town pumping (more towns meant much better unit support and in turn faster research)
- G&R which cost us more workers

Now, the city spamming is almost over and we can pump some workers. I think we should fill 4 more spots now (one in the center of the map and 3 to encircle India). Then we can go beeline for our UU and start to take the enemy with a nicely timed GA.
The main goal is to keep India far behind and keep research up. That goal has so far been accomplished.

 

[klarius]

A few remarks:
Research is on construction not currency like noted in the log.
Stop this at once (put it to 0% research and no steenkin' scientist). It's very likely somebody started construction a long time ago. And if nobody else, the supercharged Celts will have it soon (probably before we could finish it). But don't change the research topic. The amount we have put into it should make it dirt cheap to buy.
The money saved could be used to short rush the libraries in our top two cities so we can have both, more settlers (not many - maybe 4-5) and workers and the libraries up. But I also don't see that Bergen should be downgraded to a worker factory. We need some workers soon, but Bergen has too much production and commerce capability at a bigger size to run long on size 6.
Or some money can be put in our soon to be had toe-hold on the other continent. BTW I only want to have one town there. Gifting two civs was just a contingency. These towns are a drag for some time.
I think about giving up the great library build. This is just taking too damn long. I don't want to hold back literature for so long. So I would say give literature to our island as soon as it makes sense (probably when construction is around). Let our civs cascade to TGL when Entremont finishes ToA. Let Oslo build library and aqueduct.
If our civs cannot build TGL before Celts (because the Celts go crazy and research literature - rare but not impossible), Oslo can also not do it. If another civ on our continent gets the Library we will want to relocate the Indians towards it as soon as we have Berserks.
The few workers we have, shouldn't do nonsense. There are three of them mining a mountain near Reykjavik that cannot be worked without more food.
That's a zero gain action. Irrigating grass would lose as many shields as you gain by the mountain.
If you really want to give Reykjavik the lambs for more food then mine the lambs itself and a plains tile. Bergen should then get an irrigated BG to get back up in food.

 

[Obormot]

I mostly agree with klarius.

Have we researched Currency already or just switched to Construction after Math (which is terrible)? If so we may consider loosing the beakers invested into Construction and start researching Currency.

And as for this:

But I also don't see that Bergen should be downgraded to a worker factory. We need some workers soon, but Bergen has too much production and commerce capability at a bigger size to run long on size 6.

Maybe we can reach a compromise here: build several workers out of Bergen for a short while so that we can get at least some of our new towns to +5 fpt and then let Bergen grow while cash-rushing workers out of +5 fpt towns.

 

[klarius]

Have we researched Currency already or just switched to Construction after Math (which is terrible)? If so we may consider loosing the beakers invested into Construction and start researching Currency.

We are nearly half way through construction, according to CivAssist. So we shouldn't scrap the investment. But as I stated construction should come up really quick now. Then we could buy it at a large discount.
But even then I'm not sure we should start on currency. Somebody may research it already (only Mongols have CoL, so nobody besides them can be on Republic) and we really could use some cash in the near future.
BTW it may be a good idea to prepare to start the Carthage golden age soon. A war with Ottomans and them as allies would be a pretty safe method. Only we don't want to be at war with Ottomans at the beginning of the MA (we need to know their free tech and may have to gift them - we don't necessarily need to be able to buy it).
MA can happen any time now (or it could still take a few turns more).

 

[klarius]

Well, some more
Stavanger should build a harbor and maybe short rush (or rush completely and start building a worker). It will take a long time to connect the ivory by road with our worker shortage. The worker to be rushed in Molde at growth could then immediately step over and connect the ivory (don't build a road between Molde and Stavanger first). The ivory in our empire is worth much more than a road up there.

We also really have to think about our long term plans for celtic land. I still think that's where our science camps should be, fueled by Entremont. But do we want this with FP or palace in Entremont.
If we want to palace jump to Entremont we need the FP in our core so it stays productive until many cities are near Entremont. Also we shouldn't expand too much on our island, because otherwise the wrong cities will get the low corruption rank. Every city placement to be checked, if it contributes more than it costs, not the wild spawn we were doing up to now.

If we want the FP we shouldn't build it near our capital, at least not in a city we want to keep for long.

Looking again on the map, I think the Carthage golden age could be just initiated by war with mongols. Mongols shouldn't be able to bring much down to our land and should impale most of their troops on the numidians of our ally. We still could look to leader-fish a little.

Another small point. If we go the way to get a library soon in Oslo, Copenhagen should be moved 1 tile east. It's only benefit in it's current location is to provide culture border for Oslo and Reykjavik. Oslo will have it's own culture expansion and the tile for Reykjavik will be provided by culture link to Trondheim. This new city can then some time later be a nice whaling city.

Still another point. Where is the settler in the north going to. Settling cities which need a lot of worker attention doesn't benefit us currently. There are still the locations on the Gandhi cove rim, which can get water bonus resources.

 

[ThERat]

The 2 settlers are heading for the jungle locations suggested and (I thought) agreed upon.

I think as a team we should decide exactly what we want. It seems that whenever someone is playing turns, afterwards there are discussions whether the moves are right or wrong.

Example: Great Library. I still think Oslo is the best location to make sure we can really time it for India to grab at the right time. If one of our opponents gets it in a location far away from the India core, how do we make sure that India gets it before education. If the timing is wrong, we have completely lost the game. So, Oslo is the best location for that in my mind. Even it still takes some 39 turns (Oslo is at pop 5 and this can be improved). If we give the AI literature now, of course a cascade could make things troublesome.

The problem is that if we don't give literature to the AI, they will not enter the MA soon. However, knowing the AI they will be now busy to research CoL, contruction, currency and republic.
I feel, once CoL, contruction and currency are out, we might give literature out. However, as stated above, the location of the GL is really a game breaker in my mind.

We also seem to argue about gifting cities. I honestly thought we want to gift the towns to both Civ's. That's what I did.

About research, yes there is a high chance that the AI has construction soon, but it will be very cheap for us to get. We need money soon to cash rush stuff (agree on harbor rush).
There seems to be no consensus on Bergen as well, or for that matter which towns should crank out workers. Some want the core to build them, others the outlying cities. So, whoever plays will face questions.

I personally don't like top play my turns to get constant critisism afterwards. maybe that's the nature of SGOTM. Maybe I am just not suited for that. I know we aim to beat Wacken, but I feel with don't have agreed upon a strategy yet. Too many different opinions, we should really sort that out before playing on.

 

[Northern Pike]

Example: Great Library. I still think Oslo is the best location to make sure we can really time it for India to grab at the right time. If one of our opponents gets it in a location far away from the India core, how do we make sure that India gets it before education. If the timing is wrong, we have completely lost the game. So, Oslo is the best location for that in my mind.

I agree completely. Building the Library where we'll have real control over when the Indians take it has been the one coherent element so far in our rather diffuse strategy. We can't sacrifice that for the prospect, always so hypnotic to Klarius , of some tech help from miserable AI civs.

It's easy to dislike our position at the moment, but if we get the Lighthouse, and the Library in a good location, we'll have assets other teams may lack. We have to be patient.

 

[Obormot]

If TGL is built on our continent we can let indians capture another city and then take Delhi with berserkers. Then repeat it again to move them further in a direction we want. This way we may slowly move them towards where the GL will be built and thus ensure that they can capture it when we want. I think that we would want to capture Delhi sooner or later in any case because of all that commerce. So i would vote for building the lighthouse and gifting literature to our continent so they build TGL for us. If we get the lighthouse they won't be able to trade it away to the other continent.

As for Entremont, i absolutely agree that science farms should be on the other continents because of the piramids. Relocating our main palace to Entremont is wrong imho as with all the science cities we'll have terrible rank corruption in the old core. The FP might be a good idea i would say just rush it with our first leader in Entremont (hopefully with a MIL civ we'll get one). I doubt that we'll be able to create a core there though, so this would only give us one very powerfull city.

AI golden ages: i think that no AI even in GA would be able to match the celts with piramids and GA, so we better save other civs' GAs for later use. After celtic GA ends we can launch carthagian or some other GA.

 

[Ronald]

Got the save - but I am not playing today!!!!

Before I start playing, I want to have basic agreements about some important issues:

Great Library: build it or switch the prebuild to library (I think now that we should continue to build GL)

Research: I stop research untill we can buy construction cheap. Use the money for infrastructure (libraries! harbours!)

settlers/workers: I want to stop settler production for some turns instead producing workers. It is more important to optimize current cities with worker improvements than found new cities at the moment.

other continent:
I will take any city we get in paece treaties, but will only secure one with investments.

Please give me your opinion within the next 24 hours. If there is a majority for a certain action, I will follow this, if not , I will implement my plans as outlined above.

Ronald

 

[ThERat]

I completely agree on all points made by you, Ronald. Especially the Great Library.

 

[Northern Pike]

I agree with your proposals concerning the Great Library, research, and the other continent. I don't like the idea of stopping settler production entirely, since somewhat underdeveloped cities can still help us but towns which don't exist can't. Building settlers in one of Trondheim/Bergen and workers in the other might be an acceptable compromise.

 

[klarius]

I still don't like the great library build. Oslo has the potential to be our best commerce city with aqueduct and harbor and then needs the improvements to make use of it.
I don't like it sitting there for another 35 or so turns without improvements and culture.
I think, if we start the Carthage golden age by a war with Mongols, there is a good chance they build the Library for us faster than Oslo could do.

I would still like to have the rim cities soon. These are also potential commercial powerhouses, but need a lot of improvements and should get started on that soon. No settlers needed for the north.
We have two settlers in the north already, where I don't see 2 settling positions, which would give immediate benefit.
I would rather march at least one of them back south.
Further expansion to the north should be only in conjunction with war IMO. And that should be only after Carthage had it's golden age and is disposable.

 

[Obormot]

I agree here. We can always make sure that Indians are near the GL city before Education as long as it is built on our continent.

Also i agree that we should expand by war from now on, and we should start from the other continent because they have piramids there.

I'm not sure that we want carthagian GA now, we don't really care how fast will the GL be built, it just has to be somewhere on our continent. And research wise nobody will match the celts in their GA anyway. The only danger is that somebody decides to learn Literature instead of usual AI techs. But in that case we may loose it no matter where we try to build it.

Remember also that we need lots of galleys t transport our troops and to blockade Delhi.

 

[klarius]

An alternative plan for the GLib:
First of all, in any case Oslo should be mm'ed for one more shield by working the rocks. No need to grow as long as there is no other shield tile available.

Connect the ivory within the next 12 turns (harbor rushed at once and worker rushed 5 turns after in Stavanger).
Build Zeus in Oslo in 12 turns (needs still the last grass mined and worked by merging in a worker).

If we then get the Lighthouse in Reykjavik this will start our GA. Then we can build the GLibrary, if we think necessary, in the capital (check the builds of our neighbors at that time), which hopefully has it's basic improvements by that time.

If we lose on the Lighhouse, build the GLibrary in Reykjavik.

Still we need a lot workers (capital may need mined mountains and a few merges).

This plan doesn't need any drastic changes in the next 10 turns (still workers and city improvements are top priority), the only thing needed is the speedy connection of the ivory, which is a good thing anyway. The final decision has to be taken then only the next turnset.

 

[killercane]

I like the SoZ plan and more workers overall.

Great Library: build it or switch the prebuild to library (I think now that we should continue to build GL)

Research: I stop research untill we can buy construction cheap. Use the money for infrastructure (libraries! harbours!)

settlers/workers: I want to stop settler production for some turns instead producing workers. It is more important to optimize current cities with worker improvements than found new cities at the moment.

other continent:
I will take any city we get in paece treaties, but will only secure one with investments.

Agree on all points.

 

[Obormot]

The SoZ might be a good idea (i am not really sure it will pay off though), but i don't understand the point of building TGL even if we'll be in our GA. Why don't we use our GA to build knights? Do we have monopoly on ivory? If so i would rather delay the SoZ build a bit. Workers are a top priority now imo and using GA to build workers sounds like a waste to me.

 

[klarius]

The SoZ might be a good idea (i am not really sure it will pay off though), but i don't understand the point of building TGL even if we'll be in our GA. Why don't we use our GA to build knights? Do we have monopoly on ivory? If so i would rather delay the SoZ build a bit. Workers are a top priority now imo and using GA to build workers sounds like a waste to me.

One point why not building a lot of knights is that I don't want to research the useless chivalry.
And really for what should we use large numbers of knights? For sure not for our weakling neighbors.
Celts with their anoying gallics (which much to often kill knights in my experience), I would rather take on with cheaper MDI or highly superior Berserks (elite trained on Delhi).

How should anybody know if we have an ivory monopoly?
We don't know half of the world, including a complete civ.

I don't like to have the GA this early either, but with the lousy situation our empire is in and the inability to convince the team to just drop the GLib build otherwise, I think we could use a boost. It's still some time till the Lighthouse will finish, if at all.

 

[ThERat]

I still have to say that I don't really see a clear goal here. What are we trying to achieve?
Why did we want to build both GL's in the first place? I guess we want to start taking out the Celt's on the other continent. So, this requires a bit more than just a few units. It will take up quite a substatial part of our effort.
The Great Library was meant to be in Oslo to plan the Indian capture with ease. Imagine the GL is built in the north (that's where all the AI capitals are). How do you guys make sure that India will be smart enough to get there on time? What if they get education before that? major desaster.

SoZ is in my mind a nice wonder, but isn't this a game where we want to expand fast, do we really think those 5 turn AC's will be of much use? We are hitting the GA soon and AC's versus pikes aren't that hot. Not bad I know but I rather have the GL where I can feel comfortable that India will not the plan.

In the beginning we drew out settling maps and I tried to settler spam and expand. Now, we question this move due to few workers. Do you know that those towns dropped unit support a lot so we could keep research high? Now it's time to irrigate, grow and nurture those towns.

I wouldn't bother about the AI on our continent for a while, since we would focus on Celts.
But maybe I didn't quite get the whole plan here.

 

[Northern Pike]

I still have to say that I don't really see a clear goal here. What are we trying to achieve?
Why did we want to build both GL's in the first place?

Well, there is the outline of a rational plan here, even if no single member of the team seems to agree with all its elements. We want the Lighthouse so that we can completely blockade Delhi before Astronomy, probably starving it down to size one for many centuries; and we're in monarchy, which would otherwise be a clear mistake, so that we can do this without worrying about WW. The final part of the plan is that the Library should be where the Indians can capture it when we want, and like you I don't think subtleties are called for here; it should be in Oslo and we should build it.

Has anyone pointed out that the Celts entered their GA when they built the Pyramids in 1150 BC, so that it'll be over in four turns? I think this makes our Lighthouse build reasonably safe. Despite everything we can still follow a strategy that makes sense, whether or not it's optimal.

 

[Ronald]

Turn 0 (750 BC) preflight: Now I annoy half of our team and make the other half happy: I switch the GL to library and trade literature to all civs on our continent
My motivation: It is very likely that the GL is built on our continent. We need a better infrastructure and we are behind because of not enough communication about our goals. So safe play (building the GL in a very convenient location does not help to win the game.
The SoZ alternative is a foul compromise which does not help much only delays a decision. I also don't like the GA that early. So better an early mistake than a long agony. I take the blame.

Then let's also take the gamble that Carthago has the best chances of building GL in their GA and follow klarius's strategy by declaring war on the mongols with Carthago as an ally. Can't do that this turn with a mongol warrior next to our unprotected settler, but next turn when I gift literature.

Make peace with Celts for Agendincum. I don't like the city placement for Copenhagen. I prepare to move the city.

Turn 1 (730 BC) Oslo builds library --> harbor. Make peace with Americans. They only have 2 more cities and won't give one of them, so I take 33g (all they have)
Gift literature to mongols, declare war on mongols. Embassy with carthago, Alliance against mongols for literature. Trade construction for philosophy + 194g with Celts
start research currency

Turn 2 (710 BC) Trondheim builds settler

Turn 3 (690 BC) not much to tell

Turn 4 (670 BC) abandon Copenhagen found Bodo, found Alesund, Hareid builds worker --> harbor
Trade currency + 2g for construction with Ottomans!
Start CoL at min

Turn 5 (650 BC) Oslo builds harbor --> aquaeduct, found Karasjok, Stockholm builds worker --> harbor (can be switched to library, I don't know whats better)

Turn 6 (630 BC) Stavanger builds harbour --> worker, Trondheim builds settler --> settler
Trade CoL + 63g for currency with Celts. Gift Ottomans into middle ages. They get feudalism, won't trade it for literature and monarchy. That was expected. So I start engineering.

Turn 7 (610 BC) birka builds worker --> library, Odense builds worker --> library

Turn 8 (590 BC) Argendincum builds spearman --> Temple

Turn 9 (570 BC) Molde builds worker --> harbour; Bergen builds library --> settler

Turn 10 (550 BC) Found borders of Spain, contact at next turn; Trondheim builds settler --> library; settler is on galley and should be brought to one of the possible ring city places

Next priority is to connect dyes and ivory to get the lux slider back to 0.
Carthago and Mongolia signed peace treaty. We can sign with Mongolia if we want. We can also ask Carthago to get to war again for CoL. I think we should do that, but I will leave the decision to the next player.
We should not forget to rush a temple and a harbour and barracks in agedincum. Well temple should be done relatively soon to relieve culture pressure from New York.

I did not build any galleys since India does not know writing at the moment.
The settler in Bergen is thought for the last remaining ring city.

I completely overlooked that Odense is still rioting with one Celt! Mea Culpa! A warrior to pacifiy them is on its way now. Please make sure that he gets there.

Ronald

@ Northern Pike: I started playing before reading your post. I still think not building the GL is OK (It is currently built by Carthago and Mongolia. Let's see who will win)