Ronald
Emperor
double post
SGOTM 9 - klarius
- Thread starter AlanH
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Northern Pike
Deity
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2003
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I've got it, but I won't play until you've all had a chance to respond to these questions and proposals.
My main question is, do we still care about blockading Delhi once we build the Great Lighthouse? If we do, I'll change quite a lot of builds to galleys--Trondheim, Bodo, Hareid, Stockholm, and Bergen after its settler. But if that idea has died with the Great Library build, I'll mostly stick with Ronald's builds.
The Mongol war: We're so weak that the arrival of two Mongol units would be a crisis. So my inclination is to make peace immediately, unless we're not really confident that the Carths are in their GA. Ronald, is that why you want to persist with this war, and bring Carthage back into it?
Agedincum: As best I can tell, there's only one square in our city radius here that a cultural expansion might claim back for us. So if I rush anything it'll be a barracks or units.
Luxuries: Get dyes and ivory hooked up, of course.
Settlers: One more for the final rim site, then stop producing them.
Techs: This probably won't matter on my round, but what will be our choice after Engineering? Monotheism, in the hope that we'll somehow get Feudalism from the Ottomans?
I'll speed up the Lighthouse build as mentioned, and get a unit to Odense.
Ronald, a minor point: Were you planning to build a road with that worker in Bergen's forest, or do a chop?
My main question is, do we still care about blockading Delhi once we build the Great Lighthouse? If we do, I'll change quite a lot of builds to galleys--Trondheim, Bodo, Hareid, Stockholm, and Bergen after its settler. But if that idea has died with the Great Library build, I'll mostly stick with Ronald's builds.
The Mongol war: We're so weak that the arrival of two Mongol units would be a crisis. So my inclination is to make peace immediately, unless we're not really confident that the Carths are in their GA. Ronald, is that why you want to persist with this war, and bring Carthage back into it?
Agedincum: As best I can tell, there's only one square in our city radius here that a cultural expansion might claim back for us. So if I rush anything it'll be a barracks or units.
Luxuries: Get dyes and ivory hooked up, of course.
Settlers: One more for the final rim site, then stop producing them.
Techs: This probably won't matter on my round, but what will be our choice after Engineering? Monotheism, in the hope that we'll somehow get Feudalism from the Ottomans?
I'll speed up the Lighthouse build as mentioned, and get a unit to Odense.
Ronald, a minor point: Were you planning to build a road with that worker in Bergen's forest, or do a chop?
Ronald
Emperor
OK, I start answeringNorthern Pike said:
Blocking Delhi is OK in my mind. First priority for me would still be libraries and harbours. After that galleys are fine. India still has not even writing, so I believe that we don't need to rush galleys right away. High research speed has top priority for me.Northern Pike said:
I don't know if Carthago is in it's GA. I don't mind making peace, I just like to let the AI's fight. The more they fight the weaker they are afterwards when I come to conquer them.Northern Pike said:
I did'nt think we can get much more territory, I only want to prevent the city to flip because of cultural pressure.Northern Pike said:
Thanks, I ignored the dyes much too longNorthern Pike said:
Yes, that was my plan.Northern Pike said:
I hope we get Feudalism with engineering + monarchy and go straight for invention. If not then monotheism.Northern Pike said:
Just be careful with the food shortage. I am not 100% sure what happens at the last turn.Northern Pike said:
I was planing a chop to match the aquaeduct better with the growth.Northern Pike said:
The GL build: i believe it is OK if TGL will be built by Carthage or Mongolia. I already explained what we can do to to make sure that the indians actually capture it before Education. When Gandhi learns MapMaking we let him capture a city on the coast of the indian sea and then we capture Delhi with berserkers. After that we let Gandhi move slowly in the direction of TGL city by letting him capture a city and then capturing his previous city. By the time he is close to Education he'll also be close to TGL 
I think that Delhi should be blockaded with galleys for now, but harbours and aquedutcs are propably more important in coastal towns.
Research: i think after learning Engineering we should distribute it among the AI and then go for Monotheism->Theology... AI (almost) always choose Invention and Gunpowder once they know Engineering, and we'll propably be able to trade those techs. The downside is of course that the AI will learn gunpowder faster, but we are not guaranteed that they won't beeline to gunpowder in any case.
I think that Delhi should be blockaded with galleys for now, but harbours and aquedutcs are propably more important in coastal towns.Research: i think after learning Engineering we should distribute it among the AI and then go for Monotheism->Theology... AI (almost) always choose Invention and Gunpowder once they know Engineering, and we'll propably be able to trade those techs. The downside is of course that the AI will learn gunpowder faster, but we are not guaranteed that they won't beeline to gunpowder in any case.
Great Library:
As Obormot and I stated several times we only need it on our island not in a place near Delhi.
I also think there will be a time where we anyways want to move the Indians to the continent and take Delhi for ourselves (it's an awesome high commerce city). It takes much less effort to contain them once they are on land.
This also means that I don't want to slow them down until they have mapmaking (there are still enough techs after that that we can keep them below education forever if we then get them down to 50 turn research). So no blockade needed urgently.
But I see the need for a couple of galleys soon to do some more scouting to establish the attack route to Entremont. That's still my highest priority in any war effort.
And BTW we should connect iron soon. There is absolutely no chance that we ever have the money for a large upgrade action. So we should hand-build some swords soon. We may be able to afford the upgrade to MDI then.
As I stated already I don't want to research chivalry. It also looks like everything is quite near to the coast on this map, so fast movers might not give much advantage (and all this jungle on our island
).
Agendincum:
Chalk the whole gifting action up as an error and forget the town. Build a warrior for some scouting, but don't invest any money there. We don't need the town if we get the Lighthouse. The attack on the celts should come from seaside directly on Entremont. The town doesn't help with that and it's poor anyways.
Science:
Strange for me, but I recommend to put science to 0 for some time. We need libraries rushed in the rim cities, so they can work whales. These libraries will also soon pay off in better commerce to science conversion, with these cities working a few high commerce tiles.
Also the library in the capital will make researching later and getting money now preferable.
Generally the path engineering (to distribute around) monotheism-theology-education (to give the others time to research invention) is accepted standard for high research - low difficulty level and we should not deviate from this.
Carthage:
I'm absolutely not sure that they have a golden age by now and still think they should have. And they should get CoL anyways. They will work on feudalism and probably be the second to get it to make it cheaper to buy some time. Everybody else in MA is probably working on Republic currently, because they had CoL before they went into MA. And Ottomans probably research monarchy. That's much more attractive to them than the MA techs. So I would put Carthage back on the Mongols. And BTW it's better to have them as ally than them getting cocky before we are ready for them. Having unfriendly numidians in our land would be an absolute pain currently. Losing one of the northern cities to the mongols (we would anyways gift it to Carthage before they attack), would be a minor thing.
Small points:
Stavanger could have one uncorrupted commerce more by working the coast (bad timing of the harbor there
).
We don't have a harbor on the outside of our island currently, so connecting the ivory to Stavanger will not connect to the empire (shouldn't be a problem for long ).
As Obormot and I stated several times we only need it on our island not in a place near Delhi.
I also think there will be a time where we anyways want to move the Indians to the continent and take Delhi for ourselves (it's an awesome high commerce city). It takes much less effort to contain them once they are on land.
This also means that I don't want to slow them down until they have mapmaking (there are still enough techs after that that we can keep them below education forever if we then get them down to 50 turn research). So no blockade needed urgently.
But I see the need for a couple of galleys soon to do some more scouting to establish the attack route to Entremont. That's still my highest priority in any war effort.
And BTW we should connect iron soon. There is absolutely no chance that we ever have the money for a large upgrade action. So we should hand-build some swords soon. We may be able to afford the upgrade to MDI then.
As I stated already I don't want to research chivalry. It also looks like everything is quite near to the coast on this map, so fast movers might not give much advantage (and all this jungle on our island
).Agendincum:
Chalk the whole gifting action up as an error and forget the town. Build a warrior for some scouting, but don't invest any money there. We don't need the town if we get the Lighthouse. The attack on the celts should come from seaside directly on Entremont. The town doesn't help with that and it's poor anyways.
Science:
Strange for me, but I recommend to put science to 0 for some time. We need libraries rushed in the rim cities, so they can work whales. These libraries will also soon pay off in better commerce to science conversion, with these cities working a few high commerce tiles.
Also the library in the capital will make researching later and getting money now preferable.
Generally the path engineering (to distribute around) monotheism-theology-education (to give the others time to research invention) is accepted standard for high research - low difficulty level and we should not deviate from this.
Carthage:
I'm absolutely not sure that they have a golden age by now and still think they should have. And they should get CoL anyways. They will work on feudalism and probably be the second to get it to make it cheaper to buy some time. Everybody else in MA is probably working on Republic currently, because they had CoL before they went into MA. And Ottomans probably research monarchy. That's much more attractive to them than the MA techs. So I would put Carthage back on the Mongols. And BTW it's better to have them as ally than them getting cocky before we are ready for them. Having unfriendly numidians in our land would be an absolute pain currently. Losing one of the northern cities to the mongols (we would anyways gift it to Carthage before they attack), would be a minor thing.
Small points:
Stavanger could have one uncorrupted commerce more by working the coast (bad timing of the harbor there
). We don't have a harbor on the outside of our island currently, so connecting the ivory to Stavanger will not connect to the empire (shouldn't be a problem for long
).
Ronald
Emperor
klarius said:
I agree that in order to speed up research with the rim cities we need some money to rush libraries. After having these three libraries running research full speed ahead
Looking again in the save, a few more small points:
Bergen is missing a MP while Reykjavik has one more than it needs.
If you are building a settler at size 7 in Bergen you don't need the lambs. Give it Reykjavic, which then can work it together with the mined mountain.
Later you can give it back and Reykjavic has still enough food to sustain the rest of the Lighthouse build.
I don't understand why people always have to chop these nice deer tiles (near Oslo)while the cities cannot use the food.
On the other side always chop plains forests. If the shields should be needed at some time the plains can be mined.
Bergen is missing a MP while Reykjavik has one more than it needs.
If you are building a settler at size 7 in Bergen you don't need the lambs. Give it Reykjavic, which then can work it together with the mined mountain.
Later you can give it back and Reykjavic has still enough food to sustain the rest of the Lighthouse build.
I don't understand why people always have to chop these nice deer tiles (near Oslo)while the cities cannot use the food.
On the other side always chop plains forests. If the shields should be needed at some time the plains can be mined.
Ronald
Emperor
klarius said:
You can always re-forest them if you want
Not without engineeringRonald said:You can always re-forest them if you want
. And just to do a bit nit-picking. The chop doesn't speed up the aqueduct. It's too early so the lost 2 spt in Oslo aren't overcompensated by the 10sh.
If it would come in 3 turns later it would then it would at least make sense.
Ronald
Emperor
klarius said:Not without engineering
And just to do a bit nit-picking. The chop doesn't speed up the aqueduct. It's too early so the lost 2 spt in Oslo aren't overcompensated by the 10sh.
If it would come in 3 turns later it would then it would at least make sense.
Then just stop the chop, just a turn lost
Ronald
Emperor
klarius said:What, you didn'tfind the excusedemonstrate your superior planning.
Short rush with temple in 2 turns for 40g.
No I didn't
. This is just another proof that you are the grandmaster of superior planning
Northern Pike
Deity
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Northern Pike
Deity
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550 (0): Reykjavik, Stavanger, Bergen, etc. micromanaged. Bergen's settler now due in two turns.
Research cut to 0%.
CoL to Hannibal to bring him back into the Mongol war.
530 (1): A Mongol warrior appears near Alesund, so I have to cancel the worker build there and short-rush a warrior (12 gold).
We contact the Spanish, who have nine cities but are only about halfway through the AA. We sell Isabella Pottery
for 130 gold.
510 (2): Bergen settler --> harbour. Some of the extensive commentary on this town doesn't seem to reflect the facts that it already has a library and doesn't need an aqueduct.
We found the rim city of Vadso.
I have to short-rush another warrior to deal with the Mongol mini-threat, this time in Karasjok (12 gold).
The Ottomans are building the Great Library.
490 (3): The Celts declare war on the Americans.
The Ottomans complete the Mausoleum and begin Sun Tzu.
470 (4): Not much.
450 (5): We found the rim city of Farsund.
We rush Tromso's library. Of the three rim cities, a cultural expansion will be most useful here.
The Ottomans have discovered Monarchy.
Reykjavik completes the Great Lighthouse. The Celts then cascade to and build the Hanging Gardens in Entremont.
Bergen harbour --> galley.
430 (6): The Americans complete the Colossus--in New York, which the Celts are attacking.
410 (7): The Celts take New York.
390 (8): The Celts have Republic.
We sell the Americans Horseback Riding for 37 gold.
Trondheim library --> galley.
370 (9): We rush Farsund's library.
350 (10): We get ivory hooked up. Iron will be connected next turn.
We finally move two workers onto the jungle dyes. Arranging to do this in an absolutely safe way with the Mongol warrior still in the area has taken a long time, but the workers did other useful things, of course.
Research cut to 0%.
CoL to Hannibal to bring him back into the Mongol war.
530 (1): A Mongol warrior appears near Alesund, so I have to cancel the worker build there and short-rush a warrior (12 gold).
We contact the Spanish, who have nine cities but are only about halfway through the AA. We sell Isabella Pottery
for 130 gold.510 (2): Bergen settler --> harbour. Some of the extensive commentary
on this town doesn't seem to reflect the facts that it already has a library and doesn't need an aqueduct.We found the rim city of Vadso.
I have to short-rush another warrior to deal with the Mongol mini-threat, this time in Karasjok (12 gold).
The Ottomans are building the Great Library.
490 (3): The Celts declare war on the Americans.
The Ottomans complete the Mausoleum and begin Sun Tzu.
470 (4): Not much.
450 (5): We found the rim city of Farsund.
We rush Tromso's library. Of the three rim cities, a cultural expansion will be most useful here.
The Ottomans have discovered Monarchy.
Reykjavik completes the Great Lighthouse. The Celts then cascade to and build the Hanging Gardens in Entremont.
Bergen harbour --> galley.
430 (6): The Americans complete the Colossus--in New York, which the Celts are attacking.
410 (7): The Celts take New York.
390 (8): The Celts have Republic.
We sell the Americans Horseback Riding for 37 gold.
Trondheim library --> galley.
370 (9): We rush Farsund's library.
350 (10): We get ivory hooked up. Iron will be connected next turn.
We finally move two workers onto the jungle dyes. Arranging to do this in an absolutely safe way with the Mongol warrior still in the area has taken a long time, but the workers did other useful things, of course.
Northern Pike
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In five turns Reykjavik's library will complete, and we'll have enough gold to rush Vadso's. Then we might consider returning to self-research.
The Indians still don't have Writing, and the Celts still don't have Literature.
The Carthaginians are still at war with the Mongols, so they've had another ten turns to win a battle with a Numidian if they hadn't already.
We have the option of gifting the very backward Americans and Spanish up to our tech level, if we want.
The Indians still don't have Writing, and the Celts still don't have Literature.
The Carthaginians are still at war with the Mongols, so they've had another ten turns to win a battle with a Numidian if they hadn't already.
We have the option of gifting the very backward Americans and Spanish up to our tech level, if we want.
Northern Pike
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Not all cities need libraries right away.
The rim cities are special because there libraries mean also growth.
Reykjavik needs an aqueduct more urgent than a library.
We still need lots of workers. So I would switch 1-3 cities in the north to granary and let them build workers then.
Spain should get currency and a government tech at least, so they can contribute to the global commerce.
We could still think about a ToZ driven GA. And note I looked on the map some more, Carthage has ivory under Hippo.
I think we should prepare for Entremont now. I don't see any gain taking our northern neighbors soon. A handful of galleys filled with (hopefully soon) MDI should do.
The rim cities are special because there libraries mean also growth.
Reykjavik needs an aqueduct more urgent than a library.
We still need lots of workers. So I would switch 1-3 cities in the north to granary and let them build workers then.
Spain should get currency and a government tech at least, so they can contribute to the global commerce.
We could still think about a ToZ driven GA. And note I looked on the map some more, Carthage has ivory under Hippo.
I think we should prepare for Entremont now. I don't see any gain taking our northern neighbors soon. A handful of galleys filled with (hopefully soon) MDI should do.
I looke at the save, also thought that we need aqueducts more then libs. Reykyavic is now producing 4 coins, with a library it will be 6, not much of a gain here, but if build an aqueduct and a harbour and let it work the fish and an irrigated grass tile it will grow and grab all the coastal tiles and will become a commerce powerhouse even without a lib. So i would switch some of our cities to aqueducts and harbours rather then libs.
I also feel that we need much more irrigation everywhere. Some of our cities don't need an aqueduct to grow and we can put them at +5 fpt. I would build more workers, but i don't think building a granary in the northern cities makes sense now, it'll take forever to build and we cannot cash-rush everything. I would let some cities build worklers every 4 turns at +5 fpt instead. Propably we should use low-shield cities that don't have fresh water for that.
We should gift the spanish into tech parity, they may help us a lot. I don't expect much help from our northern neighbours though, even in their GA. They are much smaller then celts and the spanish.
I don't understand the idea about Entremont. Are we just going to take it so that we can build settlers out of it? I don't think we'll have enough units to capture more then one (or maybe a few) cities anytime soon. I doubt that we'll have much space to found those cities, but the idea sounds interesting. We may just save settlers for later use. I agree on using MDI, we don't know feudalism yet, so i will just build galleys for now.
I got it and will play today evening.
I also feel that we need much more irrigation everywhere. Some of our cities don't need an aqueduct to grow and we can put them at +5 fpt. I would build more workers, but i don't think building a granary in the northern cities makes sense now, it'll take forever to build and we cannot cash-rush everything. I would let some cities build worklers every 4 turns at +5 fpt instead. Propably we should use low-shield cities that don't have fresh water for that.
We should gift the spanish into tech parity, they may help us a lot. I don't expect much help from our northern neighbours though, even in their GA. They are much smaller then celts and the spanish.
I don't understand the idea about Entremont. Are we just going to take it so that we can build settlers out of it? I don't think we'll have enough units to capture more then one (or maybe a few) cities anytime soon. I doubt that we'll have much space to found those cities, but the idea sounds interesting. We may just save settlers for later use. I agree on using MDI, we don't know feudalism yet, so i will just build galleys for now.
I got it and will play today evening.
The idea is indeed to build settlers. And I don't think it's a large problem to make space for them by slowly taking out Celt towns. It's monarch after all, when their productive center is gone Celts will be pretty hopeless. And I think we should then raze the Celt cities and optimize the ICS build there. One celt city may get enough space for 4 or 5 of ours.Obormot said:
We really want a leader to rush the FP in Entremont, but even with lack of luck and a cash rushed courthouse, Entremont should be able to generate 5-6 uncorrupted shields at small size.
Granaries came to my mind because there are cities with shields from forest chops, which will still take a long time to finish doubtful libraries.
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