SGOTM 9 - klarius

[klarius]

A lot of confusing things have been written about AI civs and the tech rate, so this is a real question, not a rhetorical one. Are you saying that the difference between India's being the last of eight civs to research a given Modern Age tech, and its being the last of four, would be insignificant?

3840 to 4388 beakers according to techcalc for robotics in your case. Not insignificant, but also not a lot. And both values are a lot for a civ w/o libraries and universities.

@ThERat :
The Lighthouse grants movement on sea not ocean. So you cannot move with a goto (or holding the mouse button) into ocean.
Still where the advanced galleys are, there are sea targets to reach within one turn (over ocean tiles).
The more southish galleys have to move first northish into the vicinity where the northish galleys are.

This works okay, but don't expect to be able to set a route for more than one turn. The routing algorithm doesn't take into account that it is sometimes better to stop short of using all movement and calculates then nonsense routes (I've seen it give 20 turns all around the world, when there is a save 2 turn route, which just needs the first leg to be one tile shorter).
So you have to plan the route yourself. The big leg over the ocean can only be made at certain locations e.g. where ther northish galleys are now.

do you never safely cross an ocean before you have navigation/magnetism in your games ?
It's btw just the same w/o the lighthouse if you have a crossing from coast to coast over sea/ocean.

 

[ThERat]

Pre-Turn
so Lapurdum is the target of the first strike, but our first wave of galleys are still quite far away and those are surely not enough troops to take Entremont
check cities: they are all at the pretty irritating odd spt. There is a worker pair at Bergen, one building a mine and one irrigates
Guess we want both to mine
MM cities which grow next turn to optimise shields

IT spot an American sword successfully fighting off a unit in the fog and promote

1. 70AD
Odense can grow if we get it off worker build and give us additional troops support, so change to library

2. 90AD
arrive at Laprudum, but the spot I intended to land is occupied by a warrior
move a tile aside and land 6 units capturing a slave
we are running out of cash, sell Isabella mono for 57gold

3. 110AD
2 cities grow and are now unhappy, we can trade luxes with Carthago for the time being
attack and take Laprudum without losses, so far so good, try and quell resistance as soon as possible

IT Carthago starts SoZ now

4. 130AD
MM, this is pretty intense as we have no even spt numbers here

IT we get Theology, as discussed education next, however slow down to get benefits of ToA
reduce science to 70%
and Lapurdum disposes us already, no harm here since no unit was left inside

5. 150AD
retake town, set up some semi kind of ship chaining (as much as this is possible)
will wait for more galleys to arrive before attacking Entremont

6. 170AD
Washington is now Celtic
moving galleys
Trondheim is now on 15spt, a nice 2 turn pike

7. 190AD
Spain and Celts know chivalry now, but nobody has invention
get 5 galleys in position to drop units next turn

8. 210AD
drop off 10 units next to Entremont, 8 MDI, 1 archer and 1 pike
start sending some reinforcements over as well

IT no counterattacks by Celts

9. 230AD
Siege of Entremont:
MDI attacks 4hp pike, take off 1hp, loses
MDI attacks 3hp pike loses straight
MDI attacks 3hp pike, wins and promotes elite
MDI attacks 3hp pike, wins
the 3/4 hp pike shows up
MDI attacks and promtes pike
MDI loses straight
MDI take heroic pike to 1/5hp but loses
last MDI attacks and

10. 250AD
found Risor in the north, unit support drops to 19gpt (still too high)
we need more galleys as well, chaining isn't that great yet

Mongols, Carthago and Ottoman know invention now, I'll leave it to the next player to trade
would trade with Ottoman since they have money, they would give us 109g = 3gpt for it as well

I would not bother about ToA and go full steam for education, at the moment we can get it in 3 at 80% science

I left all the movements on for the units at celt land. Putting them into the city is high risk
We need to send over more units and take out the Celts cities, razing as we go I think
just make sure we have enough units, taking a pike defended pop12 town ain't fun

 

[ThERat]

some comments:

our cities need to be MM every single turn. Except for our capital with 15spt, all the others have odd numbers. We need more MDI's for the campaign against the Celts. Ship chaining should help but we need to position our galleys correctly. I wasn't able to do that sicne we needed 5 of them for the immediate ivasion near Entremont. now, that the first bulk has been shipped over, we should be able to sort that out.

Entremont is high flip risk at the moment, suggest to only put 2 pikes into it and let the rest wait outside, the other part move on to raze Celt cities. America is badly beaten up with 3 cities remaining.

Spain seems to have gained some momentum, suggest to trade them theology for chivalry (not sure whether we need that). Ottoman will give invention 109g and 3gpt as stated above.
I would then set science to 80% and get education in 3. I didn't start any markets. They might be useful for happiness later on, but since we run high science, they are of low priority IMHO. We should go for unis in the core, maybe rush them.

In the screenshot you can see many cities going for aqueducts. I think we will really benefit from this in the long run. India seems to take their time to get writing, research there seems hopeless

I have sent some workers down south to mine those mountains, those cities can be commerce powerhouses, but need more shields now for aqueducts.

After education, which tech do we chose? I would not go banking it seems very popular with the AI usually. We should try and get to physics/chemistry. The AI is pretty slow with tech research at the moment.

 

[Obormot]

I think we wanted to have a settler/worker pump in Odense for the ICSing, and i think we have a granary there so perhaps we should drain population out of it after the lib is built (And Birka on the other hand should grow as it has much lower corruoption and no granary). Another possibility is to leave Odense with high population, but switch those northern towns from harbours to settlers as they are to corrupt to really benefit from infrastructure. I don't want to build any universities, at least for now. Their effect is reduced in monarchy and they cost 200 shields (like a cheap wonder!). I would continue with units for some more time. I don't think we need any more pikes so i would MM Trondheim for 3 turn MDI instead. As for research, Astronomy has a pretty high priority for AI, but i doubt that they will get both guns and astronomy while we learn education and banking, so i agree to go for astronomy physics and ToG. We should be able to setup the AI to learn Banking and Metallurgy for us. Possibly Spain would be able to get Magnetism reasonably fast in their GA.

 

[Northern Pike]

There are two workers in America's capital, and we can get them right now for a tech.

It looks as though we'll have to gift Risor to the Americans soon to keep them in the game.

We should build some two-turn trebuchets in Trondheim. We'll be dealing with minor Celtic advances for quite a while, and attacking their units after bombardment will be the most economical way of doing it.

 

[klarius]

Science:
We don't need astronomy now, so no need to research that AI favourite.
And I still think we should not research education before we get the border expansion in Entremont. Because it may flip once or twice we don't know how many turns that is exactly.
We need to research chemistry as soon as gunpowder is around. After education we should either research banking, or even stop research and collect money for rush building.
Storming through the tech tree in MA, just leaves the AI in the dust, while they still have the capacity to help. And in IA you're bitten back, if you don't have the infra/science camps in place.
We need money for:

• Rushing courthouse in Entremont as soon as it gets out of resistance.
• (Short)-rushing the aqueducts in the rim cities.
• Short-rushing settlers in Entremont

I'm for a stop research phase now to get the ToA effect and then again after education, to wait for gunpowder. With a little luck you can get monarch AI to research both astronomy and banking, while doing chemistry-metallurgy.
If they just research astronomy, you can give them another shot at banking, while you research the rest of the MA techs.

Trading:
We need chivalry to pass it around so we don't end up with the AI researching it, which they sometimes do instead of gunpowder.
So my take on trades is:
Get invention from Osman. Gift/trade Isa to tech parity acquiring chivalry. Pass chivalry around. Would be nice to involve Mongols in a war after that, to get their golden age started.

War:
No storming ahead in Celtia. Securing Entremont (by units outside at first) has absolute priority.

And BTW, what is our elite archer doing outside Lapurdum. This town is absolutely irrelevant.

Cities:
Ok, Odense/Birka mess up is already mentioned.
Capital needs a mined plain or another grass forest to go up to 20sh. That's much faster and more efficent than mining the mountain. We could also build 4-turn knights at 17/18sh. Castrating it to build 2-turn pikes at 15sh is not the way to go.
But, if we go no research for some time, I would recommend a market first. Note we still have war happiness. That will go away at some time, then the big cities will lose 2 happy faces.

 

[klarius]

Roster:

klarius
killercane skipped (or maybe swapped if he posts soon)
ThERat just played
Ronald up (hmm, also not very active lately - another TG victim )
Northern Pike on deck (or free to take it if we don't hear from Ronald and he feels like it - we sort the whole mess then out next week)
Obormot

 

[ThERat]

Good thoughts about stopping research to let the AI catch up. I made sure we don't get education before the end of my turns, so that we can decide wht to do. of course invention just came in last turn, same as the 2 workers in America. before that they were running back and forth in front of our parked worker there.

And BTW, what is our elite archer doing outside Lapurdum. This town is absolutely irrelevant.

Now, what's the use to waste an elite archer against MDI/pikes? However, if that town flips, we can use the archer to attack a spear, much more likely to win. Unless we decide to build some trebs, then it would make sense to use the archer. And the reason why there are more units parked there is simple, not enough transport capacity.

I don't think Odense needs to pump settlers, we wanted to use Entremont. Odense can grow fast, but we don't really need that many settlers on our continent.

Capital needs a mined plain or another grass forest to go up to 20sh. That's much faster and more efficent than mining the mountain.

Well, I don't like to read such comments, because when I took over the turns, there were already workers in those mountains. So, just finished the job and those mountains are good to provide shields since other tiles are shared and can be used by other cities as well.

Actually, we were very lucky to take Entremont, has we dropped those meagre 6 units, they would have gone down without any result. I sent over 10 and they proved to be exactly enough. But, I guess in a SGTOM, it's all about ranting and finding the small things that can be improved. Am used to that already, but I find that a little sad.

 

[Obormot]

OK maybe klarius is right about research, i hate to do such stops, but we need the whole celtic island captured and ICSed before we research rails, so we are not in a hurry then and we'll need a lot of money for rushing settlers. In my experience getting Metallurgy from the AI was also quite easy, so after we learn Chemistry we may stop again waiting for Astronomy and then start on Physics. Getting Astronomy, Banking and Metallurgy from the AI would be ideal.

Another concern is what units to build. I don't want to waste much time researching optional MT and our MDIs will soon be obsolete with gunpowder. I think we should try to finish the celts off with MDI and clear our continent later with cavalry after the AI research MT for us.

 

[Ronald]

I am gone for the Thanksgiving holidays and only able to play on Tuesday. So please skip me.

Thanks

Ronald

 

[Northern Pike]

OK, I've got it. I'll turn off research until the ToA gives us an expansion at Entremont. A couple of questions before I play:

In two turns Stockholm will get a cultural expansion from its library, reducing the culture hole into which we were hoping to lure an Indian settler at some point to a four-tile square. Will four tiles be enough to attract the Indians? If not, does the radical course of selling the library become an option?

I may gift Lapurdum to the Americans if it's necessary to keep them alive, rather than the more exposed Risor. Does anyone see a problem with this?

 

[killercane]

Im here, Thanksgiving is a crazy time w/ no internet access. Im back home and Ill jump in after NP.

 

[klarius]

In two turns Stockholm will get a cultural expansion from its library, reducing the culture hole into which we were hoping to lure an Indian settler at some point to a four-tile square. Will four tiles be enough to attract the Indians? If not, does the radical course of selling the library become an option?

I may gift Lapurdum to the Americans if it's necessary to keep them alive, rather than the more exposed Risor. Does anyone see a problem with this?

Scrap the idea with culture hole. India is researching so slow (still no writing) that it gets more and more difficult to keep this.
Here comes the new idea:
Undefended city on the iron north of stockholm as the first new home for Gandhi. We can complete squeeze him in there by another city, but even if we don't he will have no food and no commerce there.
I have seen the AI beeline for undefended cities on resources from very far away with definitely no visibility.

Lapurdum to Abe is fine, but it may not be the final solution for Abe. It will have a high flip risk for America also. Still rather give it away to avoid the temptation to keep units there. If you keep it, let it build warriors.

But anyways I think he will be able to survive now. He has 2 quite nice villages with iron, a lux and 4-5 shields. But don't give him republic, he might be crazy enough to revolt.
I expect Brennus to throw everything and the kitchen sink at Entremont (including a lot training material like archers, horses maybe even warriors). The first wave of top notch attackers will be soon over.

The resistance in Entremont will be a hard nut to crack. It may be beneficial to disband a galley every three turns to speed up a worker. Or maybe even then a galley and the last build worker for the next worker in one turn. I know some people don't like disbanding, but if it can spare us a flip or two, it's worth it. When we reach size one with expanded borders, we should be able to surpress the flip risk by garrison.
Obviously that means we would have to build new galleys at home for one way trips, not get them back in the chain.

 

[klarius]

Another small diplomatic trick, I would suggest:
Make a combined peace renegotiation - alliance against Celts with America.
I'm pretty sure they will make peace at some time, before America gets destroyed. Then we get war happiness from America to replace the celtic one we will soon lose.

 

[klarius]

Trying to sort out the roster :

ThERat just played
Northern Pike up and got it
killercane on deck
Ronald
Obormot
klarius

I suggest that we then just stick with this new sequence until the next problem comes around.

 

[Northern Pike]

350 AD--three settlers still have movement

 

[Northern Pike]

250 (0): Research to 0%, gpt to 112.

Theology to the Ottomans for Invention, 109 gold, and 3 gpt.

Theology to Spain for Chivalry, 66 gold, and 6 gpt.

Invention to Spain as a gift.

Chivalry spread around, mostly as a gift.

Engineering to America for two workers and 4 gold.

Peace with America renegotiated to incorporate anti-Celtic alliance.

We short-rush Tromso's aqueduct (216 gold).

Entremont doesn't flip, but OTOH the resistance doesn't decrease.


260 (1): Two Celtic MDI attack Entremont. One dies and one defeats a pikeman (1-1).

Oops, a barb horseman appears out of the fog and kills our worker in America.

Two citizens cease resisting at Entremont.


270 (2): We cut down an MDI and an archer around Entremont (3-1).

We upgrade our last curragh.

We repel the attack of a Gallic Swordsman but lose another pikeman in Entremont to the attack of an MDI (4-2).


280 (3): We defeat an MDI outside Entremont (5-2).

Trondheim reaches 20 spt and begins a marketplace.

Entremont gets a cultural expansion.

Hareid aqueduct --> barracks.


290 (4): Research up to 80%, Education due in three turns.

The Celts are building Knights Templar, but in a small island town.


300 (5): With the invaluable trebuchets having arrived on the other continent p Klarius ), we bombard and destroy a Celtic MDI/archer pair (7-2).

We rush Farsund's aqueduct (352 gold).

We get a worker out of Entremont, which is now down to six citizens, two of them resisting.


310 (6): We crush two archers and an MDI around Entremont (10-2).

We discover Education and return to 0% research.

The resistance in Entremont ends. By shipping warriors over I was able to maintain a garrison of four in the town without much risk.


320 (7): We rush a settler in Entremont.

Trondheim completes its marketplace; Tromso and Hareid complete barracks.


330 (8): We move a substantial stack next to Alesia.

We rush another settler in Entremont, after disbanding a warrior.


340 (9): We take Alesia from its garrison of three pikemen in a difficult battle, losing three MDI (13-5). We gain control of the Great Wall and capture two workers.

We capture a Celtic worker outside Alesia.

Our first knight overruns a horseman near Alesia (14-5).

Bodo aqueduct --> barracks.

The Carthaginians build the Statue of Zeus.


350 (10): We've finally lost our war happiness. I raise the lux rate to 10% and hire a specialist in Oslo.

We defeat an MDI and an archer around Entremont (16-5).

Eight elite victories this round didn't produce a Great Leader. We have six elites now.

 

[Northern Pike]

We have three settlers in Celtland, with two more in position to ship-chain in next turn, so we're ready to start founding the specialist cities. I've left the former three settlers with movement, to give the next player a free hand. The hill NW of Alesia looks like a safe first choice, though perhaps we should dotmap the whole thing. The two settlers in Alesia should not be left there, since the town could flip.

We should probably rush a harbour immediately in Entremont to give us access to our fifth luxury, but again I haven't done this to keep the next player's options open.

We can build a Berserker and trigger our GA whenever we want. I assume we'll want to discuss the timing in some detail.

We have a reasonable ship chain set up, though most of the time we haven't been embarking our ground units at ports. We have been disembarking them at Entremont, after which our galleys have one MP left to get out of the city.

The Americans actually added a city this round, by founding Seattle. So they're probably not in imminent danger of being wiped out, but we need to monitor the situation.

Gunpowder hasn't appeared. The Indians still don't have Writing.

I didn't try to involve the Mongols in a war and trigger their GA this round, because we needed all our good units for the Celtic campaign. But now we can probably afford to keep some newly produced units home and attempt this gambit, if we want.

We've finally put together a good stack of workers in the rim mountains--twelve, now NW of Tromso--and we're making useful progress there.

We don't have any beakers invested in Banking, of course.

 

[Northern Pike]

The new frontier:

 

[ThERat]

very good set of turns, holding Entremont, it didn't even flip once

We should be able to finish them off quickly now. Are we planning to keep all their cities and settle the gaps? If only they finish KT in this small town for us, wouldn't mind that

What about India, those laggards? Are they still missing writing?