SGOTM 9 - klarius

[killercane]

Good job TheRAT. A few notes and discussion for lurkers if no one else:

Our science will go back down to 600 post golden age, at a deficit of -59 until we get 129 gpt back from Spain in 5 turns.

We are still 265 tiles under the domination limit.

If we're still following the single food tile = scientist method,

New Birka
N Stavanger
N Hareid
Washington
Tolosa
Keflavik

all need to be add scientists. Im sure there are more, I just looked at the southern portion of the Celtic continent.

There is still room for at least 2 more cities in Celtia and one above Vitoria that will need a harbor-aqua.

Looking at it and guesstimating, I would think that any city up to Carthage and across to Kazan and Tabriz can be quasi productive. Theres still a great need for settlers though to help ICS our continent.

Disbanding some cavs in Vadso for the university (+17 beakers) might be beneficial if we arent hell bent on attacking Mongolia yet. Mongolia does have some tasty floodplains to use though, and we dont really need a buffer from the Ottomans at this point. Edit: I see where we've given them electricity now. Do they have coal? The one by their capitol doesnt look connected in the world map view and at a quick glance I didnt see any rails. We still have extra to give in that case IIRC. Maybe we can keep them to rail up their territory a bit, and get Osman to do the same.

After Steel in hopefully 3, it will take 12 turns for Refining and Combustion (4266 each). Mass Production in 5-6 (3733), plus ToE, AT, Tanks, and Electronics (and sanitation/medicine?). I think we might be able to squeeze flight out of Spain but thats a gamble. This is mostly important for prebuilds. Bergen will do 50+ shields after the factory in 4 (it can be MM for factory in 3). So 20 turns for the Internet there, which I consider timing wise more important than Hoovers atm. Hoovers and a well timed ToE need to be done as well. If we are short on prebuild options, I propose ToE in the core somewhere (Oslo or maybe Reykyavik via Uni Sufferage?), Bergen on Internet, Entremont to do the computers wonder with a shorter lead time (with 400 shield mil academy perhaps or forgotten MA wonder). Hoovers after Bergen gets the internet or in Trondheim if we want the thing sooner. We arent ready to prebuild yet but we will be by the end of my turnset.

There is a Bach's cascade waiting to happen out there. Lets hold onto Industry as long as possible (post combustion) to preserve any Sufferage cascade. Hopefully Spain or Mongolia will build Bach's in the next ten turns.

 

[killercane]

On tech choice, we should get into Combustion by a few turns by the end of the next turnset. After that it is variable a bit, but we might be forced to do medicine through to electronics while waiting for flight unless someone comes up with medicine in the meantime.

 

[ThERat]

unfortunately it is pretty difficult to say what the AI researches:

Spain is now hopefully on RP,
Mongol and Ottoman might be on economics. I think we should not fight them yet. Sign peace with Otto once Mongol has signed peace with them. Maybe they could research medicine for us. I would do the same for them as we did for Spain, gifting them some luxes. Once we have Carthago out, we have some more luxes to spare.

I think we should leave the land on our Island as empty as possible in the core to Carthage, but beyond that we should go dense. There are still many techs for India to research, I think this will be the slowing factor and not our own tech speed. I don't even know what is their priority, why did they go for philo and not MM?

also note, that we got around 800gold in the kitty. I kept this for the post GA deficit research. We should use cities that have nothing much to build for mil and then use those units to disband.

 

[Northern Pike]

Good work, Rat.

I've got it, but I won't play immediately. I'll absorb all this commentary and perhaps post a plan of action.

 

[klarius]

My take on wonder builds:
Reykjavic should build factory (maybe short-rush with bank) and coalplant now. Then it should be the one to go on Internet prebuild via palace. This city has the highest shield potential on our island outside of the capital and at the same time it's very easy to slow a build down if necessary.
Bergen could get quite tricky to use because it shares so many tiles with Trondheim.

The capital should build a coalplant now, it can still build some military until it has to start ToE.

Now Hoover is a special case. We will not build it anytime soon. None of the high production cities on our island has a river. Maybe a new town on the line between Stockholm and Odense would be best. That will take some time to develop (could still be faster than using Odense).
That has the nice side effect that we can use hoover as prebuild in Entremont. We want a prebuild for Seti there so it can finish two turns after entering MA. Note it has to stay below 800sh, because Entremont is our oldest city and by that is before Trondheim in the build sequence.

Tech:
Mongols and Ottomans are researching nationalism now most probably and are of no help until they get it.
And we cannot afford to buy it and distribute it, because it's valued so high by the AI.
They are no match to Spain for research capacity.
Their value, if any, is not to drive research, but to provide some money to Spain or to us (doesn't really matter where the money goes).

I still see our path as:
Go up to combustion.
Trade with spain for RP when available. This might get tricky, because we cannot pay with gpt to top off any surcharge. Best would be to have 2 techs available to put on the table simultaneously, so don't gift/sell them steel or refining before. Neither industry nor corporation will be enough for a 1 to 1 swap.
The same problem will arise later with flight. So be careful what you give them. We have one chance to remedy this with peace renegotiation. I would rather keep this and not waste it early.
When we have combustion we give it to Spain immediately. It still will take them quite some time to finish their current research and then get through flight then.
I think we best plan for doing sanitation also, to give them some more time. We have quite a few cities which can profit from a hospital. And Isa could use it also.

A little bit further planning for techs. For TBP to MA we may need to be able to pay Ottomans with gpt. That means we need a peace renegotiation.
Make a straight up peace with Osman, when appropriate. Don't take anything from him, or we get a peace extension 20 turns later and cannot renegotiate in time. Taking some meager tribute could cost us dearly later.

 

[killercane]

I completely forgot about the river requirement for Hoovers. 2 SW of Odense looks like a great (well not great but the best option) spot Klarius, good call. It shouldnt take too very long with a small wonder to prebuild with.

 

[klarius]

Ok, some more

You shouldn't underestimate our research capacity after GA. We have a lot spare resources there. Many cities can work more high commerce tiles (e.g. Entremont can do this even now w/o slowing the current build).
Our science camps are also still growing and by far not at max. Also there are some beakers to squeeze out now w/o slowing growth.

One more point about entering MA (mental note: I'll have to repeat this, when it gets really to it ).
We want to enter it by researching a tech not by buying, to be able to enter TBP. So, if we should have to wait a few turns for Spain to complete flight, don't research all other techs, leave one 1 turn from completion.
Best wrt to trading flight would be the last tech to be electronics, so we have two techs to trade (AT and MT).
But that contradicts my desire to have hoover as prebuild in Entremont. So it is still desirable to have suffrage still available at that time. Maybe a few workers irrigating in Spain could help with this .

Some other unrelated stuff:
I would like to finish off Carthage, but they know India and reduce their research cost. As long as we are not sure they finally research MM, that's a bit of a problem.

It's possible/likely (they don't adjust the slider right away) that India traded with Mongols, using gpt, after we freed some. Maybe we should ally Mongols against India now.

A city 2 (or even 3, it doesn't need to be on the river, just have a river tile) SW of Odense for hoover looks fine.
But it may make our plans with India more difficult to execute, because that's the region we want to move them in first. I still fancy a city on the nearby iron for India as first stage. There they have some production to build up some units again, but no growth or commerce potential.
Don't forget our final goal .

Another point:
We need some strong defenders for the time India gets mobile, so they don't get the wrong idea where to go.

We also should have the rim fully railed. So there is still a lot work to do. I would recommend to get all slaves from science land to home island. They maybe used nearterm to block tiles, so India doesn't land in the wrong region and longterm to add to cities to reduce the resistance problem.

 

[Northern Pike]

OK, unless there's objection I'll:

1. Leave the Carthaginians with one city, I suppose, since India's research rate is such a concern (though without Hippo we won't have much Carthaginian land suitable to ICS);

2. Keep trimming back India's army;

3. Research Steel --> Refining --> Combustion;

4. Give the Spanish nothing until they come up with RP;

5. Found a potential Hoover city northeast of Stockholm;

6. Get Reykjavik started on factory --> coal plant --> prebuild, but otherwise attempt no Wonder builds;

7. Try to squeeze in some more science towns;

8. Attend to Killer's list of cities needing MM;

9. And make peace with the Ottomans straight up, if at all.


I think that covers the basics. Apart from that my main question is, do we care enough about the Ottomans' research and financial capacity that I shouldn't take Izmit and Uskudar, if it seems possible?

 

[Northern Pike]

But it may be better this way, so the warmonger NP has somebody to at in his set and doesn't die in MM agony.

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[klarius]

Looks like a plan
Remarks:

4.) If they get industry a few turns early that will not change much. I think gems come up in 5 turns.
Trade again right away, IIRC they only have one spare.
But my style for these trades is to do the lux by gpt and get the gpt back by the tech. Even though you might not get all gpt back, it's good for the relations IME and worth it.

I don't care much about the Ottomans. Take what you like. Just don't invest too much in military going there, think also of India getting mobile at some time.
As long as you get a railroad to everywhere our troops go (which you no doubt would build w/o me remembering you ), you are free to on Osman.

Edit:
One more thing I would like to have:
After missing infrastructure builds, military academy in Entremont. We may build an army or two between infrastructure/wonder prebuilds there.

Edit2:
And please don't forget: No peace with Carthage, before the alliance with Spain is canceled (also in 5 turns). You might have to cancel it actively.

 

[ThERat]

NP, don't forget that you can easily hammer Delhi with our current 5 zerks. What I did was hammer, then bring back zerks to heal for 1 turn. Then hammer. And I always used to attack Delhi from the tile 1 NE of Delhi so not to disturb their tile arrangement too much (I don't know whether that works actually)

They have at least 4 archers, so unless you have beaten 3 archers, you can attack.

Carthage will surely fall next turn with those Cavs and zerk around, there is only 1 unit inside. Then we have access to Otto in the northeast. Since Otto has MT now, they might build some sipahis and take Mongol towns. We should get them in turn and start our science farms there.

 

[klarius]

No saltpeter - no sipahi .
In fact it may be the other way round. Osman doesn't even have iron and will have a hard time defending against Mongols.

 

[ThERat]

No saltpeter - no sipahi

I must have been on too much of course...

 

[Northern Pike]

This is beginning to feel like SGOTM6 , and I'm only at 890 AD. Anyway, the Indians finally have Map Making, so I intend to eliminate the Carthaginians and stop pruning India's army. But if anyone thinks more serious changes of plan are needed now, comments are welcome.

The many harbours we're building in Celtland seem to me largely useless, since working two-food sea tiles can't help a town support more scientists. Unless someone objects, I'll change most of those builds to settlers.

 

[klarius]

Sure, India having map making means we want it the other way round.
Eliminating contacts is fine and they should again build as many units as they like.
We could even think of setting Mongols on the agenda soon.

Harbors should be evaluated on case by case bases. If all land tiles are worked by other towns, pure fishing villages still can get another beaker/coin when they hit 11 commerce at size 6 with one scientist. And for sure water resources should be worked with harbor, but there aren't many AFAIR.

 

[ThERat]

good to hear that India has finally woken up, that has really paid off. I think we should stop doing that so that they slow down in terms of research. Ideally we can trap their settler pair on a mountain or some rubbish. Or we can slowly guide it towards Carthago so it'll be easier later on.

I think we would now like to take out everyone but Spain and America. Research will be faster for us that way as well, isn't it?

 

[klarius]

I think we would now like to take out everyone but Spain and America. Research will be faster for us that way as well, isn't it?

Yes, to take out everybody out except Spain and America.
No, research cost is always the same for the first one to research a tech.

BTW, with printing press still not researched and everybody on long lasting IA projects, we may end up with India not knowing Spain when we pull the GL stunt.
That could be used nicely by using America for the tech transfer and by that having exact control which techs they get.

 

[ThERat]

No, research cost is always the same for the first one to research a tech.

ok, I was under the wrong impression that tech cost also depends on the number of Civ's left in the game, the fewer Civs, the lower the cost. Obviously I am wrong

 

[Ronald]

Yes, to take out everybody out except Spain and America.
No, research cost is always the same for the first one to research a tech.

BTW, with printing press still not researched and everybody on long lasting IA projects, we may end up with India not knowing Spain when we pull the GL stunt.
That could be used nicely by using America for the tech transfer and by that having exact control which techs they get.

That can be easily resolved by donating a city to Spain close to Carthago. I thought they should have all techs, so that they can start immediately with their spaceship.

 

[klarius]

There are some optional techs, which they better should not have.
For sure fascism. That can be resolved by us not buying it, when Spain researches it.
But it would also be nice if they don't get military tradition right away. They might build a few war elefants, so we can easily get them a golden age.
I'm not sure about nationalism and communism.

So we could configure America to have exactly the techs we want India to have. Then trigger the GL and only after that let them know Spain, so they can trade for luxes.