SGOTM 9 - klarius

[Northern Pike]

Killer, thanks for completing the coastal wall. I know it's not the most fascinating task.

I agree that we should drop the coastal shield at Alesund and Southern Pike. But it might take the Indians another hundred turns to occupy both of them; so, frustrating though it is, we have to keep trying to arrange for Gandhi to get Spanish uranium and aluminum. We should immediately rush a harbour in New (not Neu ) Tromso, and then gift that town to Isabella along with a reasonable lump sum, say 1000 gold. Judging by Klarius's last report, this may work better than gpt gifts in keeping her from selling harbours.

BTW, there's a hole in our coastal defense next to Lillehammer. It's screened by a ship, but I'm not sure that's good enough.

If he wants to build one wonder he should. He will get a GA from that. It's not clear if this is better now or in 100 turns .

It's hard to choose between this and Obormot's idea of beating Gandhi to a Wonder (I believe it would have to be MP) in the hope that he'd default to Apollo. I think I prefer the latter, but it's a close call.

 

[Ronald]

I got it and will play tomorrow. Although the game is not very exciting at the moment

 

[Ronald]

I just had a look at the save. Since Spain is so terrible in trading with Idia, what do you think about the following:

1) Destroy Spain and remove our troops from the Spain continent, so that India can take over the required resources.

2) Have a number of armies (armies because the AI does not attack armies) at the Indian and Spain continent to destroy horsehockey cities if India wants to build Apollo and expensive space ship parts in these cities.

3) Build anti bomber units (stealth fighters + SAMs) to protect our continent from bombers

4) Wait for India to do something.

I want to play tomorrow late afternoon (US east coast time), so please give me your input about our next strategic moves.

 

[Northern Pike]

I just had a look at the save. Since Spain is so terrible in trading with Idia, what do you think about the following:

1. It may well come to this, but maddening though Isabella's harbour-selling is we have some control over her, whereas if Gandhi took fifty turns to build needed harbours, replace razed cities, etc., there'd be almost nothing we could do about it. So I'd rather give Isabella at least one more chance (meaning the gifting of New Tromso and 1000 gold mentioned above), while also of course exposing Alesund and Southern Pike to Gandhi.

2. A good idea once Gandhi's in position to build spaceship parts, but I don't think we should give him any motivation to keep building military until we know he's completed Apollo.

3. Definitely. SDI in Entremont would be a good long-term goal, though perhaps we won't be able to afford the research, given the spying we need to do.

4. I suppose so....

 

[Ronald]

Here are my turns. I don't like this game anymore and I'm not sure I will play another set of turns.

Turn 0 (1675 AD): Rush harbor in New Tromso, rush transport in Southern Pike (to move all troops out), remove coastal shield from Alesund

Interturn to Indian Battleships are annoying

Turn 1 (1680 AD): Give new Tromso to Spain, trade 1000g for free artistry, move out of Southern Pike, INdia has no Uranium and no Aluminium

Interturn: There was an undetected hole in our coastal shield near new Viking 1. India landed a modern armor. This is actually good:

Turn 2 (1685 AD): I abandon Vatso, leave Alesund undefended and defend everything else with armies. So India should get Alesund in the next two turns. Not much else to report.

Interturn: Some more annoying bombardment, Indian modern armor does not drive to Alesund, does some pillaging instead :-( India starts Manhattan program, I have to look where and how long it will take to finish

Turn 3 (1690 AD): According to civassist, India has Aluminiumand Uranium from Spain (let's hope this is true). First city I investigate is Carthago and that's where they build Manhatten project. To be Finished in ten turns.
What do we do about it. Let we have them nukes? If we want to destroy Manhattan, I have 4 transports in New Farsund. They can reach Carthago in 2 turns (attack on turn 3). A battleship as escort is on its way as well.
We can build Manhattan in 5 turns in Entremont. Should we build it and hope that Ghandi switches to Apollo? We can also sabotage with a spy.

Interturn: Instead of moving towards Alesund the Indian MA makes suicide on our MI.

Turn 4 (1695 AD): Not much to do

Interturn: Some more bombardment

Turn 5 (1700 AD): not much to say. Costs for sabotaging Manhattan is very high 1200g at the moment, we won't be able to do it.

Interturn: More bombs, now India has 3 bomber. Most of the attacks are to the island east of the Indian continent.

Turn 6 (1705 AD): One more thought: Manhattan needs uranium, Apollo needs Aluminium. We could take the two spanish cities which have uranium before India finishes Manhattan. Do they have to abandon the Manhattan project or can they still finish it?
I take a break, they game is boring.

Interturn: an Aegis cruiser destroyed our battleship, if we want to destroy Manhattan, we either have to send undefended transports or rush battleships; some more bombardments;

Turn 7 (1710 AD): Iznik wants to join our empire, we reject them; start to build Manhattan in Entremont due in 5 turns

Interturn: more bombs; three Indian Aegis cruisers + 1 transport are on its way to Alesund

Turn 8 (1715 AD): Nothing to add

Interturn: Bombs; Indians land near Alesund; Indian Navy destroys ships around Entremont

Turn 9 (1720 AD): Rush a number of battleships to defend Entremont; destroy ships near Entremont with Bombers; relocate some bombers to Thunderfall; move 2 transports as shields in front of Entremont

Interturn: India captured Alesund. So they have their own Uranium, but when they captured it, the harbor disappeared - strange, did they sell it? Alesund was undefended.
Carthage wanted to join our empire. I was thinking what to do. One the one hand, if we accept it, Manhattan is gone. On the other hand, I don't think we can stop Manhattan forever, so I decided that the best strategy is to build Manhattan ourselves and hope that Carthage switches to Apollo
The player after me has still the option to capture Carthage.

Turn 10 (1725 AD): Bring my battleships to protect Entremont and kill some Indian ships with bombers near by.

Interturn: Our Manhattan project is due in 2 turns; Carthago is finishing in 2 turns as well. Something strange must have been happening. I checked 3 turns ago and there it was seven turns. They might have an GA, but I don't know why and how.
So destroying the Manhattan project is no option anymore, but I think we still are finishing it before Carthage. If I recall correctly, player comes first then AI.
I leave a few workers with movement points for the next player.

This game is very boring and won't get better. I am not sure I want to play another set of turns.

 

[Northern Pike]

Interturn: India captured Alesund. So they have their own Uranium, but when they captured it, the harbor disappeared - strange, did they sell it? Alesund was undefended.

A harbour is like an ordinary improvement, not like an aqueduct--it can disappear when a town is taken, and it doesn't matter whether combat is involved.

I prefer the idea of completing Manhattan ourselves and hoping that the Indians default to Apollo, but obviously the question is whether Gandhi would use nukes on us if we had at least an equal number of them. I really know nothing about this.

 

[ThERat]

I think India will start to nuke our resources, at least that's my experience from nukes.
This might be tough to be able to withstand all those nukes when they build their SS.
If they ever build it...

 

[klarius]

Our roster:

Ronald played
Obermot up (are you still with us)
klarius on deck
ThERat
Northern Pike
killercane

 

[Northern Pike]

Klarius, do you have anything to add on the question of how likely the Indians are to start nuking us if we allow Manhattan to complete, or do you agree with Rat?

 

[ThERat]

just play klarius, Obormot seems to have been dropping for all SG's

 

[klarius]

@NP
The AI isn't very likely to first strike with nukes at all IME.
And if they nuke, who cares, just repair the damage.
But the bad thing is that Gandhi will build nukes everywhere. The AI loves to have a nuke in about every city.

I haven't really looked closely in the save but I don't think we can avoid Manhattan to be build (note, it doesn't matter if we build it or India).
I think it's best to complete it and hope Gandhi cascades to Apollo.

There are a few things we could think about:
We could revolt to communism, making it easier to maintain our empire, but may take a long time anarchy.

We could go back to research for getting SDI up.

 

[ThERat]

communism or SDI would be good choices, but does it really matter? This game is now just frustrating since we have no hand in whatever India is doing. This is no more about skillful play but mere dependance on RnG and whatever else influences the AI.

Heck, why doesn't he start the Spaceship? Since we can't tell, the eventual winner of this game is simply the most lucky team.

I am very interested in the other Team's progress, it will be fun to read their frustration after our game is done and over. At least from the score graph I can see a similar curve for 1 team, guess they a stuck as well. Whatever CDZ is doing that their score is still increasing.

 

[klarius]

Well, I got it and will try to play in the evening.

And BTW, I looked into the save, it's not just pressing enter. There is quite a bit to do, though it may be quite boring stuff.
We need military. Gandhi has amphibious warfare by now.

Our connection to former Spain can be cut every turn by bombardment from Gandhi. We may not be able to steer Gandhi to do the right things, but we have to make sure that he at least has the opportunity.

 

[Obormot]

Thank you guys for skipping me, i just cannot make myself play when the game gets so meaningless, i am sorry. BTW, judging from the culture graph we've built internet a bit earlier then team Wacken did. That surprised me a bit since our date is not that great (we could have launched in 1405 IIRC). I hope their Gandhi won't be much smarter then ours.

 

[klarius]

Well, I played 15.
The save

The only really notable event is that Gandhi did cascade from Manhattan to Apollo, so his Apollo is in Carthage.
I also revolted to communism.
I pretty much ignored Gandhi and just repaired the damage from his bombardment.

Gandhi has a golden age, but seems to use it just to produce more ships and units.

Turnlog

Preflight:
Look through cities and try to find remotely useful builds. Draft a lot to relieve workers and garrison coastal cities.
Fire all scientists and put research to 0.

IBT:
Gandhi bombs a little.

Turn 1 1730:
A little worker moves. A little bombing. Draft a little.

IBT:
Not much. We build Manhattan.

Turn 2 1735:
Move a few troops. Investigate Carthage. Hurray Apollo is in the city (1 down - 10 to go) . But as usual he now started an ICBM.
Revolt for 6 turn anarchy.

Turn 3-5: zzzz

Turn 6 1752: Gandhi completes Shake's in Aarhus. This should give him a GA.

Turn 8 1756: we are communists. Steal recycling from Gandhi. Verify Gandhi has a golden age.

Turn 9 1758: Entremont has now a recycling center. SPHQ completed in elverurn.

Turn 10 1760: Not much. I play a few more turns

Turn 11 1762: Trade recycling for amphibious to Spain and gift her some coins (she is broke again probably buying from Gandhi).
Investigate Trondheim. Nice production wasted on modern armor.

Turn 12 1764: Carthage builds mechs and Bergen ships

Turn 13 1766: We have an ICBM. Just for fun. Steal smart weapons from Gandhi.

Turn 14 1768: Not much.

Turn 15 1770: Well, Utica is also not building anything with much sense

 

[Ronald]

He built Apollo !! That's more than I was expecting. We are in good shape now. (The game is still far from being exciting though.)

 

[Gyathaar]

(The game is still far from being exciting though.)

I really didnt consider the unfun part of waiting for Ghandi part when making the game. The next game will have a win condition that will not depend on AI moods...

 

[Northern Pike]

Well, Gandhi's Apollo and GA are certainly good news. Thanks for struggling though the extra turns, Klarius.

I really didnt consider the unfun part of waiting for Ghandi part when making the game. The next game will have a win condition that will not depend on AI moods...

However much carping may be going on in the various threads, I'm sure everyone realizes that it's hard to come up with new variants at this point.

 

[ThERat]

India has all necessary techs and resources, they could start all space parts at the same time...theoretically that is.

I hope he will not start the parts in some trash towns. I will keep an eye on it and hopefully report news on more parts.

Got it, I might play 15 turns as well if nothing much happens.

 

[klarius]

A few remarks:
Another quirk of the AI. Gandhi has built library and university in the big cities. But I didn't see a temple or cathedral. He has now a very high research capacity and is running 100% research. So watch out for the opportunity to steal integrated defense.

If this really goes to 2050 (only 190 turns to go), he might reach 100k culture. Currently his culture output is low, because of fascism and several cities still having foreign population majority, but that might change. So we should build some more culture buildings to get over 50k, but that's not urgent.

I have shift-A automated some workers so they deal with pollution on their own. Also a few cities might have governor control. I know you don't do it in SGs, but I think in our situation it should be OK . In fact it would probably be better to put most coastal cities on governor so they don't starve when ships mess up their tiles.

I also fortified most of our bombers, so you have to search them if you want to bomb something. I just had given up to bomb anything.