SGOTM 9 - Smurkz

[zyxy]

This seems fuzzy to me.
Research Economics to get Smith's or not?

Hold on. Instead of waiting until turn 5, let me pause the game after the Ottomans are gifted up to Industrial Age to examine this in more detail, as you discussed in Post #791.

It's fuzzy because I don't really know what's best. In my limited experience, it is very difficult to generate enough cash to keep up 4 turn research in the Modern Times. In that light, I would vote yes to Smith and Economics. I would really like to hear the opinions of all team members though.

We have seven cats total, five are on Tadpole. We have 12 maces total, don't recall how they are distributed. We have 3 eSwords and 4 eHorses on Tadpole, bring them all back to fight the Indians?

India will be let out of the cage in 10 turns, and over time we'll need some troops over there to contain them. Some artillery to deter them, some infantry for their hitting power, and some horses for speed. Of course, initially the danger is small, and a handful of forces would be enough. I would like to use this phase to hit Carthage and take out Oea as well as that settler pair up north. So perhaps bring back the 7 elites with 3-4 cats and let's say 5-6 maces, mostly down south, but some up north to hit the settler-pair. Also a few units (probably 2 mace/sword, 2 horse or so) near The Vest for containment. Keep a Galleon near Oea to unload 4 maces on the mountain.

In fact, as far as I am concerned, you can declare on Carthage if you manage to get all this in position. The sooner the better.

Spain has muskets, we have maces. And some vHorses on Tadpole. We have 30 military (non-catapult) units on Tadpole. Seven may head back to fight the Indians, leaving 23 or so. A 12 unit strike force of maces and horses should be sufficient to subdue two or three muskets, (right ?) leaving 11 to watch and guard our borders. Does this spread us too thin?

I would keep the maces, swords and horses on the road as much as possible, near the front. Some of the cheaper units (or perhaps sail the scouts over) can be used as mountain top lookouts. If Spain decides to attack in force, then we'll be vulnerable for the next 30 turns or so until we get infantry. However, the only things we really need on Tadpole are the two luxes (and the harbor), so if needed we can always pull back to Entremont and Atlanta, and I think this is a risk we can take.

Not sure if I will get to do much railroading, but will try to get workers into groups of 6WT each on Smurkz. On Tadpole, will try for groups of 3WT, since so many workers are working solo.

Sounds good. Please keep in mind slaves count as half. On Tadpole, first priority would be a RR from Entremont to Buffalo. That would connect our frontline and ease the defense quite a bit.

If we bring units back to Smurkz and assemble a Madrid focused strike force, I am not sure there will be enough units left to deal with Mongol/Ottoman issue that ControlFreak mentioned this turnset.
And we need the Ottomans to get their free tech.
Should we gift the Ottomans a city somewhere (south Tadpole or an island), just in case the Mongols get frisky?

We are not attacking Madrid I hope? I wouldn't mind giving Houston to the Ottomans, except that they will then meet the Americans, and our contacts are worthless. But how about Thunderfall? We could switch the build to catapult, wait 1 turn for it to finish, and gift the city. The cat will go to Zentral, a nice bonus.

Btw, Detroit is also building a Galleon and that's not sensible. Please switch to catapult, and pick it up with a boat when ready.

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That town was placed simply to reduce worker turns roading through the jungle on the warpath to the Mongol lands. Seems like ages ago! It's not too late to be moved... Currently it is only puting out 6 beakers per turn and six gold and does 5 shields per turn. Moving it east or southeast to the river would mean it doesn't need an aqueduct. BUT it would encroach on Ol' Smurkz River which is a pretty productive town. I think it's doing 24 beakers right now. If we move Kalmurkz it might be better to move it to the coast. The only thing with that is we burn the library that it has already and to be productive on the coast it really would need a library, aqueduct, harbor, and a courthouse. Maybe we should move it to the coast and simply irrigate some of those tiles and pump workers out of it.

Your SE is another way than mine - I meant down-right, to the coast. And straight East might actually be better, because Smuez Canal is very corrupt and New Kalmurkz can put Smuez' tiles to better use. For example, there's a nice bg up there. Also it can work up to 7 coastal squares from there. It would go from distance 8 to distance 9 to the FP, so distance corruption increases a bit, but rank corruption stays the same. CA2 says total corruption increase is from 40% to 42%. When on the coast it can get a harbor and work coastal squares for extra commerce.
It's a waste of the library, but probably a good idea long run. We can rush a worker followed by three settlers (make sure it doesn't grow), and use all three settlers to rebuild it and quickly get it up to size. This way, we need to rush about 70 shields (280 gold) and lose about 25 turns on the lib. On the plus side, we get a town that can grow to size 12, and generate about 35 raw gold per turn (21 after corruption), as opposed to 18 (11 after corruption) now. Also, we recover 10 gold pieces by selling the lib, and gain a worker.

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Do we want to capture Gergovia? I would do that before we move units away from Tadpole. We should probably bring settlers with the attack force to claim the land around Gergovia before Spain can if we want that area. Otherwise, we could get Spain to declare on the Celts again and let them take Gergovia. It would be more productive to them anyway and might help with their research/our gpt deals. Get some units around Sing Sing first.

Why bother with the Celts? They are not a threat, I think, and not exactly the fastest researcher - the only one India could trade with, in fact. It's strategically not wise to take or replace Gergovia, it's surrounded by Spain and holds nothing of interest. Also, it seems we do not have time to take Gergovia and after that get to India within 10 turns. If Spain wants to deal with Celts, than fine, but I would not pay for it. OTOH, if Spain attacks us, we could ally with the Celts to provide a distraction in their rear .

Houston is a flip risk. We missed our opportunity to rush a library there and control that 2nd radius tile. We need to have some units down there to either prevent flipping (in town) or recapture (out of town). We are also in need of a lot of settlers. They will probably come from size 12 towns with full food boxes.

I would rather not waste good money on useless towns like Houston. If it flips, then so be it. We can always take it back.

We only need the one chain of galleons. The unupgraded caravels should go explore to clear the fog. There must be more unclaimed furs in the fog. Don't bother wasting the turns to upgrade first. The movement rate is the same and if you need the extra storage space, you'll just have to head to a harbor for upgrade when you pick up your load.

Good thoughts. It would be real nice to get our own furs.

 

[WarDance]

Your SE is another way than mine - I meant down-right, to the coast. And straight East might actually be better, because Smuez Canal is very corrupt and New Kalmurkz can put Smuez' tiles to better use. For example, there's a nice bg up there. Also it can work up to 7 coastal squares from there. It would go from distance 8 to distance 9 to the FP, so distance corruption increases a bit, but rank corruption stays the same. CA2 says total corruption increase is from 40% to 42%. When on the coast it can get a harbor and work coastal squares for extra commerce.
It's a waste of the library, but probably a good idea long run. We can rush a worker followed by three settlers (make sure it doesn't grow), and use all three settlers to rebuild it and quickly get it up to size. This way, we need to rush about 70 shields (280 gold) and lose about 25 turns on the lib. On the plus side, we get a town that can grow to size 12, and generate about 35 raw gold per turn (21 after corruption), as opposed to 18 (11 after corruption) now. Also, we recover 10 gold pieces by selling the lib, and gain a worker.
.

Ha! The Bermuda Triangle that is my brain messed up my compass. I think this is a good plan for Kalmurkz. Precisely what I was thinking but with proper compass directions.

 

[ControlFreak]

I'm fine with all suggestions.

Bag Smiths at a 200s loss, then don't bother with Economics. The four turns are important because it's one more required tech for India to inherit in the GL or 4 turns sooner for them to inherit them.

Leave Gergovia.
Leave Houston.

Note that teleporting the catapult back by gifting a town would work for any unit we chose to move in there before the gift.

I would even consider pulling out of Richbourgh and letting Spain have that (gift?) just to help consolidate our border.

My biggest pressing concern is that CB won't be done by Thursday and I won't be able to play on the weekend. LETS GO!

 

[zyxy]

Bag Smiths at a 200s loss, then don't bother with Economics. The four turns are important because it's one more required tech for India to inherit in the GL or 4 turns sooner for them to inherit them.

Alternatively, we can leave the prebuild for now. The only real loss is a delay of the Bank, because there's nothing else to build for Zentral anyway. There's a 1:3 chance that Osman will get Steam, in which case we probably end up researching Economics anyway.

My biggest pressing concern is that CB won't be done by Thursday and I won't be able to play on the weekend. LETS GO!

Agree, let's keep this rolling. CB, please write your plan!

 

[ControlFreak]

Zentral makes 20spt and 34gpt at 60% tax. That's 17gpt we're wasting by running the useless prebuild. If Ottomans get Steam, I think we should go Medicine>Sanitation so that hospitals are available. That should be a good trade for Steam Power. Build the bank now.

Zentral can still use a temple/cathedral/colloseum and can start its hospital prebuild right after the temple with decent timing for the techs if we have to go the medicine>sanitation route.

 

[CommandoBob]

Long Term Goals

• Let Gandhi loose by gifting Indianaposmurkz in 750 AD.
• Gandhi rides the tech elevator to the top some time in the MT, when we let him take Grad and by making someone else just as smart as we are, probably the Ottomans.
• Let Gandhi have our southern core, probably via proxy.
• Hold the northern core and continue research after Gandhi gets the lower parts of the continent.

Mid Term Goals

• Develop the northern core with emphasis on research capacity and income.
• Research at 4-turns per tech, maybe slowing to 5-turns per tech in mid to late IA.
• Develop the southern core for India with emphasis on production.
• Fill Tadpole with scientist towns.

Short Term Goals

• Research: Finish Theory of Gravity (3). Gift Ottomans into Industrial Age and try to get their free tech, if we want it. Pause game, and discuss what to learn next.
• Warfare: Get units back to Smurkz to keep Gandhi caged.
• Workers: Get ready for rails by grouping workers into 6WT groups. (Northern Core)
• Production:
  • Leave Zentral alone until we know the Ottoman free tech (could build Smith's Trading Company here).
  • Build Unis, banks, temples and cathedrals in northern core.
  • Build workers where possible.
• Tadpole: Build workers and settlers. Get workers in groups of 3WT. Put spear and archer on mountain tops.
• Find and hijack the auto moving boats to be troop transport from Tadpole to Smurkz.
• Tell Hannibal to exercise his spear and settler some place else.
• Assemble a Madrid bashing force, in case we need to use it. Plan to leave in boats in international waters.
• Gift a city to the Ottomans in case their Mongol neighbors want more elbow room.
• Various MM discussed by zyxy and ControlFreak.

Sneaking this in from work; will be a few hours before I get home to play. Shamelessly copied Niklas' strategy post and modified.

 

[zyxy]

Looks good. Minor nitpicks:

- We are researching Metallurgy, not ToG. Not that it matters, just finish it .
- no need for temples and cathedrals yet. We will need aqueducts, markets, courts (only in the 2nd ring probably), harbors and (prebuild for) factories, as well as the libs and uni's you mentioned.
- I still don't understand the Madrid strike force, but it probably doesn't hurt. Please do not thin defenses on Tadpole too much.
- don't forget to prepare to move Kalmurkz . Procedure: switch to worker now, after that settler, and rush settler to completion after building for 1 turn. Repeat until city auto-disbands, and sell the library on the turn before that. Resettle straight east, and add in all the settlers.
- be careful with Hannibal. If he declares, our defenses on the main land are very thin. Often it's easier to simply block off a settler, and then we can capture him when we're ready. It's your decision of course.
- Zentral: I'm torn between the options. I like Smith, and I don't like throwing the shields and additional income away. But probably CF and Niklas are right and cutting our losses with a Bank is wiser. Your call though.

Good luck! Hope to see your report in the morning.

 

[ControlFreak]

More nitpicks:
Boats
We dont need to use boats to transport from Tadpole to Mainland if we're going to gift the ottomans a city (Thunderfall?). Just move the units you want to send home into the city. When you gift it to the Ottomans, the units will be teleported to our capitol. Don't thin the defenses too much on Tadpole though, it's easier to build units on the mainland than get them to Tad.

You DO need to use the boats, especially the caravells that are not part of the ship chain, to explore, explore, explore. We want to clear the fog before spain and find extra luxuries (especially furs) that we currently have to buy from Spain.

Workers
It doesn't matter how many are in a stack as long as they finish their job. We want to worker chain railroads from one end of Mainland to the other. To do that, start the workers where they are and gang them on a railroad one at a time until the tile is railed. The ideal situation is 1:move (road) 2:move(road) 3:rail x6 workers, rail finishes. Worker 7 can 1:move (onto railroad) 2:move to end of railroad (0 movement) 2+:move onto next roaded tile 3:rail. Repeat for as many workers as possible. This will automatically stack your workers in 6WT for you. And with 60 workers, you'll move ten tiles per turn railing behind you. Once the backbone is finished, repeat the process in smaller groups to various branches. If you have one city you want extra production, a separate stack of 6 or 12 can be pulled to that town and rail every tile. But don't do that until your backbone reaches every AREA.

Military
Get the units on Tadpole to roaded tiles for faster access to hotspots.

The units in boats are supposed to be for Oea. That is our next military target. I think we've abandoned the idea of hitting Madrid (see Wonders)

Wonders
We should prebuild in the south to be able to grab wonders. We should prioritize rails for our most productive cities in the south to help wonder building. Bachs and later Universal Sufferage must be built in the south. Preferably in different towns where no wonder is built yet.

Good luck tonight.

 

[Niklas]

Maybe you played the start already, but here goes anyway. Of the caravels on goto, two are set to move to Atlanta for upgrade. You could probably leave those on goto, the extra transport capacity will pay off.

Good luck!

 

[CommandoBob]

We have entered the Industrial Age and brought our friends the Ottomans along with us. In return for our care and compassion and gifts of wisdom and learning, they create something called Nationalism.

We are learning Steam Power. The game was saved as soon as we learned the Ottoman free tech, so the smart slider has not been adjusted.

I woke up all the ships at sea. The ship chain is in position as backup and we have units moving towards Washington. No city on Tadpole is a great gift city for us to give to the Ottomans, (especially after Nationalism!) but Washington seemed to be the least bad choice. It south of the bulk of Tadpole and will not interfere with the new palace or forbidden palace. It does not interfere with movement to other cities around it. And it is initially land-locked.

Or maybe we should gift a city to the Mongols, now that the Ottomans are so wise. As I remember, the Mongo-Otto Island does have saltpeter. It could be the Ottomans getting frisky, not the Mongols.

The caravels have been sent exploring and have only found water. For no reason at all I renamed them to Lollipop, BubbleGum, Butterscotch and Peppermint.

Spain has built Leos in Barcelona, on her mainland. Barracks in every city or just on that continent?
Spain has a settler near Augustodurum and has had lots of military movement. Could just be the AI fidgeting.

Hannibal is no longer sleep walking through Smurkz.

In Baltimore is a galleon partially loaded with units to take out Oea on the atoll.

On Smurkz, have been making jungle roads instead of clearing jungle. Now that most jungles are roaded, may begin to clear out some of them while waiting on Steam Power. Have also been combing some workers together to finish mines and roads in one turn, even if a WT is going to waste. In other places, have added workers to other stacks to get 3WT per stack. Tried to stay away from 1WT or 1.5WT doing something in a tile.

On Tadpole, where all workers are slaves, this has not yet been possible. Far too many workers working solo.

Not done much MM aside from the notes in the posts. Spent far more time on trying to get the most from the workers and documenting them (the real time killer!)

The save is attached.

 

[zyxy]

Good going! Treasury has grown nicely .

Ottomans getting Nationalism is the worst possible outcome.... Well, we cannot be always lucky. At least no complicated trades are needed now . Do we want to have Nationalism ourselves? Perhaps, but there's no hurry I think, because we'll get Repl Parts soon enough. Ottomans are very unlikely to trade it for steam anyway. So our research path looks like Steam -> Industrialization.

I want to keep Washington. It has horses nearby and is close to our Wines. It would be nothing but trouble. I agree that the Ottomans are probably safe from Mongols, now that they have Nationalism. We could gift Thunderfall. We could also wait, most likely we will get at least one turn to react before one of these guys kilss the other.

Zentral: training some MDI is not a bad idea. Alternatively, you could start a factory prebuild.

Kalmurkz: please rush the settler to 20 shields this turn (using barracks). The forest chop will add another 10 to complete the settler. You can let some other town have the 3 food dyes tile, Kalmurkz will still grow. Please keep rushing settlers/workers every other turn until the town disbands, then refound 1 tile east.

You seem to be doing a good job on the workers!

I must be blind but I cannot find Baltimore or that galleon you mention. Maybe you mean Buffalo? In that case, I would really prefer to use MDI to take out Oea, horses and swords are too weak I'm afraid. Btw, there are two fortified galleons in SmurkzPoint and Sages, on our west coast.

It's too early for temples yet IMO. Smurkzfood can do a Bank, Ismurkz prebuild for factory.

We do not need more galleons. Detroit and Thunderfall could switch to catapults. They will need to be picked up, but we have plenty of ships for that.

Indianaposmurkz doesn't need a market, because it will go to India soon. India doesn't know the required tech for markets (currency), so the market will be demolished when we gift the town. Please switch to MDI or cannon. EDIT: THIS IS NOT TRUE, SEE BELOW

 

[WarDance]

Indianaposmurkz doesn't need a market, because it will go to India soon. India doesn't know the required tech for markets (currency), so the market will be demolished when we gift the town. Please switch to MDI or cannon.

Do we know this for sure? I know that I brought it up on the first page when we started but it was posed as a question... maybe we could test it with CommandoBob's test game where he tested the elevator.

 

[ControlFreak]

I agree with zyxy on many points.

Washington must stay ours.

If you want to teleport, we could gift Golden Smurkz. We would need to rush a library in Lugdunum first so the FP tiles stay ours but I think it's the best option. If Lugdunum stays ahead in culture, Golden Smurkz would only get a bunch of desert tiles, a plains, a FP and an iron hill. Not too painful. You must rush the Library though! (And you probably want to rename Golden Smurkz to something more prisonlike .

Attack on Oea must be with Medi and should probably include more than just four.
They've had the town for a long time and they only have two towns. They have likely been building units since it was founded.

Research Path
Steam and Industrialization are the way to go. Get prebuilds going for Factories as they'll be available in 8 more turns.

I think having Nationalism will be a big help responding to a Spainish attack. The ottomans definitely have the advantage now with rifles and potentially iron in their capitol. I would gift to the Mongols.

Workers
You're doing a great job with the workers and I don't think you need to write down every move. (I want you to finish tonight so I can play before the weekend. )

It looks like you will be building two railroads. One starting at Carthage, the other at Canal. Both working their way toward Zentral. Then take the rails back to Canal and rail toward Grad. This will help the teleported units to end up near Indianapolsmurkz for defense.

Good luck and have fun!

 

[ControlFreak]

Do we know this for sure? I know that I brought it up on the first page when we started but it was posed as a question... maybe we could test it with CommandoBob's test game where he tested the elevator.

While you're doing this, check to see what is kept in the Great Library city. If things do get destroyed without the right tech, then we would lose all improvements in the city. The techs don't come until the next turn.

I suspect though that the tech is only a requirement to build, not to own. If it's built, you keep it, you just don't get to build it in another city until you have the tech.

 

[WarDance]

In the test the Great Library City kept the aqueduct, market, bank, and stock exchange. So it appears they CAN keep improvements they don't yet have the techs for.

 

[ControlFreak]

Thanks for checking. I suspected as much. It's similar with resources. You need iron and coal in a city to build the ironworks, but once built (or even started to build) losing the iron/coal doesn't destroy the ironworks. (It just pissed me off because the iron was worth 4 sheilds. )

 

[zyxy]

I now tested this too, and WD is correct! I gifted a city with a market to a civ that didn't have currency, and the market remains. Oddly enough, it also keeps functioning, i.e., it still adds 50% revenue and multiplies the effect of luxuries. Tested a bit more and it also works for factory, bank, stock, aqueduct, and presumably for all other noncultural improvements.

I assume the same holds for conquest, then this is very nice, because it means we do not necessarily have to gift the GLib city to India as the first town.

If you want to teleport, we could gift Golden Smurkz. We would need to rush a library in Lugdunum first so the FP tiles stay ours but I think it's the best option. If Lugdunum stays ahead in culture, Golden Smurkz would only get a bunch of desert tiles, a plains, a FP and an iron hill. Not too painful.

Rather not. Don't we have a lot of ships to move our units? Golden Smurkz is a decent specialist farm, it can support 4 scientists with 2 railed floodplains. I also don't like wasting good money on a useless library. Btw, gifting it to Otto's or Mongols will spread contacts. If we don't mind doing that, then Richborough is a better town to give away, we cannot defend it properly anyway. Even then, I don't see the hurry, as we can always gift cities after a war breaks out. A scout as observer on Mongol-Otto island would be useful to monitor that. Both civs have slow units only, so we'll get a turn warning that way.

If we choose to spread the contacts around, then Spain will buy all 3 for 20 gpt + 18 gold. She'll also give 6 gpt + 11 gold for our WM, but she doesn't have enough to buy all. So I would rather wait until Spain has a little more cash - 3 turns ago she only had 3 gpt IIRC, so hopefully it's rising. I would sell contacts + WM to Spain as soon as she pays full price, then sell/gift around to all others.
Nobody else has anything to offer, except Ottomans who have Nationalism. But that is very expensive, 100 gpt + 3000 gold is still "doubtful", so I expect that Steam + contacts + WM is not enough.

EDIT: should have said that I agree with most of the other things CF said .
- A few more attackers to Oea doesn't hurt (but it probably means you will not be able to pull the trigger on your turns - no problem).
- Factory prebuilds is good, except in good science towns without libs or uni's, then do those first.
- Nationalism would be somewhat useful, but you will not get it in tech trade for a while, unfortunately.
- It's your decision of course, but please don't feel obliged to record every move. Nobody else on this team does that in this stage of the game - actually, I don't think anyone ever reached your level of detail, and it's an enormous amount of work.

 

[ControlFreak]

Ottomans now have the tech to cross the ocean so contacts will need to be sold soon.

I thought about gifting Richbourgh but if we can't defend it from spain then no one else can either. We risk losing one of our pets.

You are right that we don't need to use the teleport. If that's the case then Thunderfall is the better option. I do think that waiting is best. We must get a scout to sit on the island to watch troop movement. Then trying to get prisons on the Tundra island and the 2-tile plains island will be better as homes for the Ottomans and Mongols.

If you do sell contacts, sell the WM also so that no one can use their knowledge of their hemisphere for gain.

And I think we were talking about getting the other AI up to Education so they could research the optional printing press and Music Theory. Bring the Celts along so they don't end up trading partners with India.

 

[Niklas]

@WD: Good catch, that changes lots of things. Don't see immediately what though, need to think on that one. Suddenly the Kindergarten strategy might not be that bad after all, though that would mean we need a second core...

Agree with everything said for the upcoming 7 turns. Research, trading contacts, gifting techs, build plans, attack plans, the works.

Btw, we should probably stay clear of teleporting via gifting. It was completely disallowed for SGOTM8, nothing has been said for this game but we have no pressing reasons to use it so I think we shouldn't.

 

[CommandoBob]

Short Term Goals (revised)

• Research: Steam Power, Industrialization, then split between Medicine/Electricity/Corporation. Favor Electricity since it leads to Replacable Parts and faster workers.
• Military:
  • Get catapults, at least, back to Smurkz to keep Gandhi caged.
  • Continue to move northern military units south on Smurkz.
  • Load maces onto the mystery galleon in the hidden city. (It was 1am when I got done. )
  • Wake up galleon(s) on the west coast and send to this hidden city for more maces, maybe an eSword or two.
  • The Washington stack gets split into three parts; catapults to Entremont (first units to Smurkz), some maces and eUnits to Oea and the rest towards Entremont, with an eye on the Spanish.
  • The scout near Carthage can go scout the upcoming Mongol vs. Ottoman game.
• Workers: Get ready for rails by grouping workers into 6WT groups around Carthage and Canal. Once we get 'Steamed Up' begin railing to Zentral.
• Production: Temples -> banks/unis/factory prebuilds.
• Gifting a city to Mongols: probably Thunderfall, but with a scout soon to be on Mongo-Otto Island, not as pressing.
• Various MM discussed by zyxy and ControlFreak.

Not quite sure on selling contacts. I need some help on this. Sell which contacts to who? Let everybody know each other, but nobody knows India?

The worker documenation will cease. If ControlFreak thinks I am doing a good job who am I to argue? (Now to focus on swapping production tiles from city to city. That looks hard.)

The next seven should go much faster (less typing and fewer units to type about).