SGOTM 9 - Wacken

#1a. Do we contain India and build towards having two "extra" cores? One with a FP and one with a sizeable city to have the palace jump to when we finally "gift" our starting capital.

#1b. If no to 1a. when do we want India to gain our staring area? MA or IA?

Unless we have a coincidental map that suits it like last game, C3C does not really support 2 cores, merely 2 overlapping cores. So that is not really an issue i think.


#2. Do we build GL in our starting core for India to capture before they reach education? Could be a real nailbiter to keep them backwards until we have built factories in the cities we intend for them to capture.

It would be nice if we could build it in a city that is on the outside of our core so that we could have them conquer it either earlier or later than the rest of the core if we see fit. This is also possible though if we build it in a central city, just a bit less comfortable. To keep options open, we should not build it in the capital.

#3a. 6 civs to go after. How many do we want to keep in the game and how strong do we allow them to become?

#3b. Should we eliminate the closest neighbours or the most convenient ones?

3B i think needs to be discussed later. There are many factors that will count.

-It is better to conquer resources and leave empires with a lack of resources and luxuries. this way we can allow India to take these so that they have something to trade for technology.
-It is better to keep scientific civ's around.
-There might be civs that hold luxuries or resources that we want to take.
-Eliminating the closest ones will reduce the possibility of confrontation between them and India.

I think we want to keep multiple ones to pass on the modern age technology. I do not know if their power and size has influence on the likelyhood of them selling tech to India. If course, if they are bigger, Indias resources are more valuable. On the other hand, if they are smaller, they may be intimidated or something and sell cheaper :)
I do not think we need them any size for research after we have taken the lead. If we gift them late, we will take the late in early middle ages probably, if we gift early, we probably take the lead a bit later.


#4a. Loads of gold could help us with sabotage in the endgame if we have several civs building SS parts.

#4b. Or we go after the remaining civs when India is close to gaining the final tech needed to build SS parts.

This is a monarch game, we will easilly have the power to stop other civs from winning. This however does possibly slow down the tech flow from us to India since we cannot use civs that we are at war with to pass on the technology.
I think we should keep an eye on gathering gold either way. Our own research speed of course still has priority over gold gathering, and that includes spending gold on rushbuilds that increase our science rate. I would expect that we can gather tons of gold without harming our science troughout the industrial age while during the MA, spending every penny on increasing our research.
 
I just realized something. It will be tough to contain India early on, since they start with Alphabet :lol:

They will have some dingies out before we can say "What the...?" :eek:

So depending on the shape of the map etc, we can't really do anything to stop them from exploring. If they meet only one other civ, the GLib-idea is pretty much out of the window, except if we figure out a way to keep them backwards for ages.

Therefore we have to look at the early game and see what we can do about OUR empire. Max expansion and science is obvious and when we know more about the world, then we can make the proper choices. Right now, at the start, we can't really do anything...

A couple of things for later:

Will there be WW in Republic? As we start in war, it must be "us" that started it, right?

And much later:

When we want to build up a nice empire for India, I think we should minimize the pop of Viking citizens in the cities before we "gift" them away. We can overcome this by using foreigners (slaves) and hoarding them by razing huge cities. 12-pop cities usually give 4-5 slaves. By erasing a decent-sized civ, those slaves when joined in cities, would be neutral.

As I said, this might happen much later, but we should keep that in mind.

There are so many obstacles to overcome, I think we should concentrate on how to handle the ancient age.
 
Would be really nice if that Indian isle was in the middle of a big lake, but yeah, we will certainly see boats early from them.
 
We also start with alphabet. We have the option to build 2 early curraghs to destroy theirs.

How fast do you think they will build one ? do you think it will be their first build ?
Do you think we will then be able to destroy it ?

They will have 2 production, needing 8 turns for a curragh. We need to move our settler.
It could be that the map is made like this to prevent teams from containing them with no contacts. But what are the chances of them starting to build something else first ?
I never used the editor, could someone make a test game with an AI on a 1 tile island to see what it will build ?

We may also be able to get to printing press before they get into MA, and make everyone sign war against them. It will however not be very easy to keep everyone at war with them, meanwhile keep them from being destroyed, and conquering some things ourselves. However, i think even if they succeed in getting contacts early, there are pretty good chances to keep them backwards long enough. On a 1 tile island they will have nothing to offer for the other civ's in trade and we can keep them in some wars.

Therefore, i think building the GL is a good plan anyway. Even if we cannot keep them backwards until after railroads, factories and hooverdam, it will be a great help for us if we can wait until late MA or early IA before gifting away our core empire.
Of course for this, it is also important that we build the GL in a city that can be captured appart from our empire. We could for example give them The Library in late middle ages, then build the industrial stuff before gifting them the other cities.

We will also have WW if we do not declare as far as i know. 15 lost units = 1 level of WW.
Does anyone have any experience with feudalism ? I don't know anything about this government, is it possible that it might be good in this game ?

The slave plan sounds good to me.

We will soon focus on ancient age, but it is important to have a good long term picture. You just showed why it is important to first think about the long term plans before starting. We might need to build a curragh first build.
 
Do the AI ever build curraghs?

Containing India is, I believe, a nice idea which may or may not prove possible. They are pretty easy for others to spot over the sea, so It may prove a bit academic.

I rather thought we might almost kill off everyone else pretty quickly, eliminating India's rivals for space, and letting us control the AI tech speed fairly well. I am pleased the Great Library idea is popular, but it is not a simple one to implement.

It does seem fairly clear that we need to achieve rapid science ourselves.
 
Does anyone have any experience with feudalism ?

Feudalism is excellent if you have a tonne of small cities and when the whipping factor comes in. As in Republic the WW-level is low, but unit support is 3gpt and the corruption slightly higher.

Kuningas used Feudalism in COTM15? when he won 100k victory in 850AD :twitch:

Originally Posted by Kuningas
Feudal lord 270AD - 850AD
Feudalism is wonderful. Feudalism is all what is needed for 100k. With that cultural whipping can begin hundreds years earlier. In only 30 turns I did whip >200 Cathedrals, >200 Libraries and >100 Colosseum's!!!

Even if we don't want to win by 100k, whipping is very powerful when used properly. For instance, whipping markets and harbors instead of only cultural stuff will make a huge impact on the economy.

I think Republic is better if not for anything else, the extra commerce and that's the gov I always play. :) But you CAN set up an great empire using Feudalism and use a gazillion of specialists. Yeah, that goes for Republic too. :rolleyes:

Then we have Fascism and Communism, but I doubt we want to change gov that late.
 
Offa said:
I rather thought we might almost kill off everyone else pretty quickly, rapid science ourselves.

Delaying contact could be done by builidng a wide ring of boats around their city. but indeed it would have to be pretty wide and thus expensive. Still it is not impossible.

We could go for unltra fast conquest. It is monarch, we have conquered many worlds with knights on emperor en deity, we should easilly be able to conquer the reachable world (and that what is not reachable won't reach India either) with knights unless we have a very crappy starting position.

If we do that and leave one other city, we can contain them both until we have researched modern age tech.
Thiis conquest will also do well for our science. The more people the more scientists.

This way most of the risks are solved. It would be simple and straight forward. However, when we then gift them the empire, it would take a while for them to fit in their own furniture before starting the spaceship. This might end up like last game, simple, straightforward, very fast, but beaten by a team who manages to use a little more finesse and preventing that end game delay.

I am still pretty unsure what to do.

-Try and contain from the beginning.
-Not contain, but destroy everyone before they supply India with education.
-Not contain, but use different tricks to keep them backward.

I am pretty sure our strategy should include TGL though.
-Once they are significantly backwards, it will be very difficult for them to obtain techs without much to trade. They would need a proper empire if they want to get along on the trading market.
-If we want to provide them a proper empire early on, that will be so costly that it can set back our development possibly by like 50 turns or so.

My feeling says we should not do something in the middle of all those 3. Maybe we can prevent them from getting contact with everyone, and only have them know 2 or 3. If we then destroy those 2 or 3, we may be able to contain them from the others later.
We then try to keep them backwards by not alowing them any city and by getting as many people into war with them as possible. We need to see how far ahead we are gonna be with our research and if we maybe could get a scientific civ on the bring of death just before MA. Then we could still get a free MA tech from them without having all the AI's getting it.

Does anyone have 100% certain, the exact info on WW. I know it goes with points, every 30 points is a level and every lost unit 2 points. But, i do not know if we will not get any WW if we don't lose a unit. If we allow India no space, we should be able to go with less than 15 units lost to them all the way up to industrial. If that means we will have no, or only one level of WW, we can use republic. If we get ww in time without losses, i think republic i no option.
 
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61628&pagenumber=1

This thread describes a bit about WW, but I hate to crunch numbers, so I leave that for you Wacken :)

But is says a couple of things I was surprised to see:

- improvment pillage/bombed
- unit that are bombard down to 1 hp
- Add 2 wwp when a unit with defence value is attacked. (Even if you win)

I never paid that much attention to any of this stuff...
 
from that page:

There is a bug for these penalties. For a human-AI battle, the AI gets the same penalty as the human (he gets penalty for taking human cities, but not for losing his own). For an AI-AI war both gets the penalty the first AI should have. There seems to be no problem with human-human battles.

This means the AI will get WW when we give them cities. Loads of WW actually. Are AI's smart enough to use a government without WW or is this an issue we need to solve ?


Other than that, i think republic is possible as long as we keep them to 1 island and destroy anything they bring out with vastly superior units, preferably on neutral ground.
WW is not generated by time. Only by being attacked, being pilaged, and losing units and cities. If i understand correctly, WW is reduced when you have no units in eachothers territory.\

As long as they have a 1 tile island city, we can easilly kill the units they bring out by attacking with superior units that have an extremely small chance to lose. Later on, when we give them our empire, we could swich to communism.
 
I never ever saw Ais building curraghs. I don't think we will see Ghandi sailing the sea on dingies. So we will have some time until Map Making which will certainly be Ghandi's priority #1.

I would postpone decision on government choice until after we start the game and do a little exploration. If we have few luxes available early then republic would be the choice. If... and i have a feeling that we might also be stranded on an island just slightly bigger than Ghandi's then all our plans will have to be adjusted...
What i am trying to say that the smartest move now would be start the game and reveal map a little. This game is like a game of chess. You can think about how you are going to play, but your entire strategy might change after 1st couple of moves/turns.

Therefore. Lets speculate as much as we want now. Once the game starts 1st player should play 10 to 20 turns stop earlier if needed and then we will take a deep breath and couple of days to polish our strategies and tactics.

I am reading these posts and i can't really build my our opinion on what is the best plan.

One thing i am certain about - feudalism is not the goverment of choice in this game. THis game about fast research, not fast whipping. Feudalism won't do us any good.
 
Feudalism won't do us any good.

Not quite true, mate. In the case we build heaps of tight cities (no more than 6 pop) we can use about half of the pop as specialists. And the whipping is good for markets and harbors as I said before.

But I don't want a MM-hell just because we can do it. So Republic -> Commie sounds like a good idea.

I love to speculate too, but as dman said, we need to know more about the surroundings.
 
Gyathaar said:
Incase you missed it.. the saves has been available for a bit over 12 hours now :crazyeye:

:lol: i sure did miss such an important fact

@Gozpel: You might be right about feudalism. Frankly, i never used it. so i can't be certain even about that. :crazyeye:

EDIT: lets send scout to the cow and if something nice opens there send settler that way.
 
Yeah, i saw those 3 bars and thought we were given a scout...
so that was misleading after all....
 
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