Ronald
Emperor
Megalou said:
I think we should delay our first spoiler. The much I want to read the story of some of the other teams, we should not reveal our city gifting tactic.
SGOTM8 - klarius
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
I think we should delay our first spoiler. The much I want to read the story of some of the other teams, we should not reveal our city gifting tactic.
Okay, I was a bit short of time lately.
With so many posts in the meantime, my comments may be a bit out of order.
Courthouses:
They make the success of propaganda less likely, but don't influence the normal culture flips by foreign population and tiles under foreign control. Propaganda is typically not really a problem.
Golden Age:
We don't need to take Athens first. Copernicus is expansionist. We already have pyramids. So Cops will trigger the GA.
Vikings:
I really don't know if we have a chance to get a city. Generally the AI seems to be more likely to give concessions if they have other wars. But that's only a gut feeling from other games, nothing I could measure. And in our case the Vikings will probably not suffer much in the other wars.
Still one thing: We should not break alliances. Even if you don't accept upfront payment in the deal this breaks the reputation AFAIK. So if we want to ally other civs we have to wait until all deals run out or are broken by our allies.
Generally about science: I'm sure we will need flight. And maybe advanced flight.
Forget about keeping MA techs out of the hand of the AI. Gunpowder will soon be discovered. Rome would already only pay much less than the real value, so I'm sure they are quite far in research towards it. So we should sell it as long as it has some value.
I would currently not rush any barracks in corrupt cities. I rather would have settlers rushed, wherever we get the population.
Spoiler:
If somebody wants to write something it would be nice, I'm currently not in the mood. Note the spoiler criteria are MA and contact and maps from everyone. That's before we started the phony wars
(though only by a fraction of a turn).
Discussion of strategy is not mandatory.
Generally you should also not expect to get a lot insight from the spoilers of other teams.
With so many posts in the meantime, my comments may be a bit out of order.
Courthouses:
They make the success of propaganda less likely, but don't influence the normal culture flips by foreign population and tiles under foreign control. Propaganda is typically not really a problem.
Golden Age:
We don't need to take Athens first. Copernicus is expansionist. We already have pyramids. So Cops will trigger the GA.
Vikings:
I really don't know if we have a chance to get a city. Generally the AI seems to be more likely to give concessions if they have other wars. But that's only a gut feeling from other games, nothing I could measure. And in our case the Vikings will probably not suffer much in the other wars.
Still one thing: We should not break alliances. Even if you don't accept upfront payment in the deal this breaks the reputation AFAIK. So if we want to ally other civs we have to wait until all deals run out or are broken by our allies.
Generally about science: I'm sure we will need flight. And maybe advanced flight.
Forget about keeping MA techs out of the hand of the AI. Gunpowder will soon be discovered. Rome would already only pay much less than the real value, so I'm sure they are quite far in research towards it. So we should sell it as long as it has some value.
I would currently not rush any barracks in corrupt cities. I rather would have settlers rushed, wherever we get the population.
Spoiler:
If somebody wants to write something it would be nice, I'm currently not in the mood. Note the spoiler criteria are MA and contact and maps from everyone. That's before we started the phony wars
(though only by a fraction of a turn). Discussion of strategy is not mandatory.
Generally you should also not expect to get a lot insight from the spoilers of other teams.
Okay, I thought now about strategy.
I think the Viking gifting campaign is pretty hopeless, but if we want to try it, then now. We already now would lose a lot of our population, but that gets even worse with time.
Otherwise get our population up everywhere. Rush settlers, harbors and temples where needed. There are still lots of locations for useful cities. We can get another ~50gpt from Rome and Greece for gunpowder. We can also sell our spare luxes to Rome.
We could still try to get research help now, in the IA the AI is pretty hopeless.
This would mean hopefully trade for astronomy soon and don't research metallurgy, leave that to the AI (obviously distributing around chemistry). And even don't research military tradition. Somebody will research it while we will research IA techs.
Delay the wars until flight when we can move units from the core to every of our holdings by a few airstrips.
Now that's probably a bit much patience to expect from the warmongers in the team. We can have a golden age in roughly 15 turns (a little earlier with a bit MM). Then we probably have the money for a bit of military rushing. So that would mean go for chem-metal-MT. This also means we will most likely not get any research help beyond astronomy.
That means Greece is on the agenda soon and also to get rid of the reg warriors (
NP ) and replace them with horses. We really shouldn't pay for warriors and we cannot upgrade them to something more useful. Washington can build units now (I don't see the benefit of a bank, though a uni or even Newton's might be a good thing). Other cities are also completing their markets soon and could then build military (but slowly, they should be MMed for growth).
I think the Viking gifting campaign is pretty hopeless, but if we want to try it, then now. We already now would lose a lot of our population, but that gets even worse with time.
Otherwise get our population up everywhere. Rush settlers, harbors and temples where needed. There are still lots of locations for useful cities. We can get another ~50gpt from Rome and Greece for gunpowder. We can also sell our spare luxes to Rome.
We could still try to get research help now, in the IA the AI is pretty hopeless.
This would mean hopefully trade for astronomy soon and don't research metallurgy, leave that to the AI (obviously distributing around chemistry). And even don't research military tradition. Somebody will research it while we will research IA techs.
Delay the wars until flight when we can move units from the core to every of our holdings by a few airstrips.
Now that's probably a bit much patience to expect from the warmongers in the team. We can have a golden age in roughly 15 turns (a little earlier with a bit MM). Then we probably have the money for a bit of military rushing. So that would mean go for chem-metal-MT. This also means we will most likely not get any research help beyond astronomy.
That means Greece is on the agenda soon and also to get rid of the reg warriors (
NP ) and replace them with horses. We really shouldn't pay for warriors and we cannot upgrade them to something more useful. Washington can build units now (I don't see the benefit of a bank, though a uni or even Newton's might be a good thing). Other cities are also completing their markets soon and could then build military (but slowly, they should be MMed for growth).
I like your first alternative, the non-war-mongering one. Apart from what you said it also allows us to control our horseman production better. But with the first alternative I'm not so sure we can trade Astronomy. Rome and Greece may be researching Gunpowder - as you said the Romans seem to be researching it because of the low value it has to them. I suggest researching Metallurgy and handing it around, but not researching Military Tradition. I have seen AI go for Physics before MT so it can be a long time before they get Metallurgy and MT.
Thanks for setting me straight about Copernicus'.
Alliances or no alliances? I agree that we should not break them. We may need to be able to sign alliances later, although if we offer techs the AI is likely to agree to them anyway. 20 turns is very long for a phony war and I fear that they will "forget" about their huge initial losses during that time.
Northern Pike
Deity
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2003
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- 6,673
I really must complete my monograph on the usefulness of regular warriors, right up to the moment when they cheer the spaceship launch. 
I'll point out again that if we conquer the Greeks soon, we'll have time to ICS their lands and derive real benefit therefrom. But if we wait much longer, that territory will never contribute much to our research effort. And because of our hydrophobic condition, this won't be a normal campaign against a clearly weaker opponent; various complications may arise, we may have to wait out a couple of twenty-turn peaces, and it would just be a good thing all around to get started quickly.
It doesn't bother me that in this scenario we'd be settling for just Astronomy and Greece's free IA tech as research help from our rivals. It seems to me optimistic to hope for more than that from these mediocre AI civs; and the likely timing of our Golden Age is a issue here too. Why wait for techs we could research quickly during our GA?
I'll point out again that if we conquer the Greeks soon, we'll have time to ICS their lands and derive real benefit therefrom. But if we wait much longer, that territory will never contribute much to our research effort. And because of our hydrophobic condition, this won't be a normal campaign against a clearly weaker opponent; various complications may arise, we may have to wait out a couple of twenty-turn peaces, and it would just be a good thing all around to get started quickly.
It doesn't bother me that in this scenario we'd be settling for just Astronomy and Greece's free IA tech as research help from our rivals. It seems to me optimistic to hope for more than that from these mediocre AI civs; and the likely timing of our Golden Age is a issue here too. Why wait for techs we could research quickly during our GA?
Ronald
Emperor
Northern Pike said:
I also think that we should conquer the greeks soon. reduce them to one inland city so that we can get their free tech. My plan would be to build up infrastructure (marketplaces and a few universities) during the next turns and during the first halve of the GA and use the second halve to conquer greece. Somehwere in between we hopefully eliminate the chineese and we might be able to start something against Japam and/or England
430 AD Save
320 AD - Upped research to 80%.
Micromanaged Tsingtao to grow.
Hurried settler in Tatung (112 g.)
Hurried worker in Chengdu (8 g.)
Hurried worker in Dallas (12 g.)
Moved southernmost warrior NE.
Moved some troops south.
You should now know what is coming next turn...
Sold Gunpowder to Greece for WM, 60 g, 34 gpt. (All their gold.)
Sorry, I should have sold to Rome first.
Sold Gunpowder, dyes, gems to Rome for 33 g, 25 gpt, WM.
Changed 16 citizens to scientist in our corrupt area. Food is pointless there this turn as long as there is no starvation or pop increase.
Now you should definitely know what's coming next turn.
Chemistry due in 4t.
MMed Chicago to slow down marketplace (12 t), speed up growth (13 t).
Increased growth in Houston.
Changed Caesaraugusta to warrior.
Quite a few changes but all minor except science.
IT:The Scandinavian galley seems to land units on the frozen island southeast of gems.
Boston: marketplace ---> horseman.
Detroit: library ---> aqueduct.
Tatung: settler ---> settler.
We Love Science Day in Denver.
5 workers ready. We now have 31 so I'll send some south to join cities up to the happiness limit.
330 AD - Moved units out of towns/prepared towns:
Canton
Denver
Beijing
Dallas
Shanghai
Xinjian
Tsingtao
San Antonio
Nanking
Chengdu
Give the towns to Scandinavia. Present pop of towns given: 30
By keeping units in the giveaways, we teleport to Wasington:
13 native workers
2 warriors
1 spearman
1 horseman
Retake towns. Unfortunately we have 9 resistors.
Join 2 workers to Wasington.
Chop forest south of Washington.
IT: Only 3 resistors left.
340 - ROP with Japan.
Join 4 workers to Boston.
Join 1 worker to Seattle.
Increased growth in Miami; swapped tiles with New Orleans.
IT:
Scandinavian galley is fairly close to the west.
Spices connected.
Corinth completes Knights Templar!
Seattle: marketplace ---> horseman
Riots in San Antonio as all resistance ends.
350 - 4 workers joined to Seattle.
Increased defence on west coast to 3 units per town.
Upgraded vet spearman to musketman in Seattle.
Hurried warrior in Caesaraugusta.
IT: Chemistry ---> Metallurgy 5t
Astronomy not available.
Viking galley goes north between the two islands west of us.
San Antonio flips to Vikings.
360 - Retake San Antonio with longbowman.
Join 1 worker to Houston.
Hurry settler in Byzantium (44 g)
Join 1 worker to Chicago.
Hurry acquduct in Miami.
Strangely, China has Gunpowder.
Renegotiated ROP with England.
We are ~30 beakers per turn short of 4 turn research. I'm gonna do a few turns with no luxury to speed it up.
IT: Miami: aqueduct ---> harbour
Thermopylae completes Hanging Gardens.
370 - Scandinavia talks. They will only give Odense - size 3 island town north of the capital. Copenhagen and Stavanger (size 5) are at the "I doubt" level. Odense will only help us if we get helicopters. They now know Invention. Join 1 worker to Miami.
IT: 2 horsemen, 1 worker.
Scandinavian galley spotted near Chinan.
380 - Just MM
IT: Athens builds Sun Tzu's.
2 viking galleys near Caesaraugusta.
390 - Odense grows - I should perhaps have taken it.
Hurried Barracks in Caesaraugusta.
IT: Spearman survives 2 barb attacks.
Metallurgy ---> MT
Scandinavia lands 3 troops near Caesaraugusta (2 warriors, 1 MI.)
Caesaraugusta: barracks ---> horseman. Spearman upgraded.
400 - Greece knows Astronomy. They want Chemistry and 135 g. I take
it because I don't want to start MT with so few horsemen.
We sell Chemistry to Rome for 9gpt+70g.
Warrior pops 50 gold.
Los Angeles founded.
IT: Sorry, Caesaraugusta was captured. The odds were even but a warrior beat the musketman and our warrior was killed by the MI.
Cleveland founded. Lost 2 warriors to a barb warrior.
IT: S:t Louis: Library ---> marketplace
420 - Join 2 worker to Atlanta.
IT: Vikings: Great Library.
Tokyo: Statue of Zeus.
430 - Trade with Rome: Right of Passage, World Maps, and giving 1g. Then renew peace. Roman soldier looks threatening.
OK - I'll leave you with that. At least now Scandinavia will give us Caesaraugusta back for peace (without harbour.) We should perhaps wait one turn to see if Rome declares (In which case Caesaraugusta will be worthless.) But I've already been too bold on two occacions.
320 AD - Upped research to 80%.
Micromanaged Tsingtao to grow.
Hurried settler in Tatung (112 g.)
Hurried worker in Chengdu (8 g.)
Hurried worker in Dallas (12 g.)
Moved southernmost warrior NE.
Moved some troops south.
You should now know what is coming next turn...
Sold Gunpowder to Greece for WM, 60 g, 34 gpt. (All their gold.)
Sorry, I should have sold to Rome first.
Sold Gunpowder, dyes, gems to Rome for 33 g, 25 gpt, WM.
Changed 16 citizens to scientist in our corrupt area. Food is pointless there this turn as long as there is no starvation or pop increase.
Now you should definitely know what's coming next turn.
Chemistry due in 4t.
MMed Chicago to slow down marketplace (12 t), speed up growth (13 t).
Increased growth in Houston.
Changed Caesaraugusta to warrior.
Quite a few changes but all minor except science.
IT:The Scandinavian galley seems to land units on the frozen island southeast of gems.
Boston: marketplace ---> horseman.
Detroit: library ---> aqueduct.
Tatung: settler ---> settler.
We Love Science Day in Denver.
5 workers ready. We now have 31 so I'll send some south to join cities up to the happiness limit.
330 AD - Moved units out of towns/prepared towns:
Canton
Denver
Beijing
Dallas
Shanghai
Xinjian
Tsingtao
San Antonio
Nanking
Chengdu
Give the towns to Scandinavia. Present pop of towns given: 30
By keeping units in the giveaways, we teleport to Wasington:
13 native workers
2 warriors
1 spearman
1 horseman
Retake towns. Unfortunately we have 9 resistors.
Join 2 workers to Wasington.
Chop forest south of Washington.
IT: Only 3 resistors left.
340 - ROP with Japan.
Join 4 workers to Boston.
Join 1 worker to Seattle.
Increased growth in Miami; swapped tiles with New Orleans.
IT:
Scandinavian galley is fairly close to the west.
Spices connected.
Corinth completes Knights Templar!
Seattle: marketplace ---> horseman
Riots in San Antonio as all resistance ends.
350 - 4 workers joined to Seattle.
Increased defence on west coast to 3 units per town.
Upgraded vet spearman to musketman in Seattle.
Hurried warrior in Caesaraugusta.
IT: Chemistry ---> Metallurgy 5t
Astronomy not available.
Viking galley goes north between the two islands west of us.
San Antonio flips to Vikings.
360 - Retake San Antonio with longbowman.
Join 1 worker to Houston.
Hurry settler in Byzantium (44 g)
Join 1 worker to Chicago.
Hurry acquduct in Miami.
Strangely, China has Gunpowder.
Renegotiated ROP with England.
We are ~30 beakers per turn short of 4 turn research. I'm gonna do a few turns with no luxury to speed it up.
IT: Miami: aqueduct ---> harbour
Thermopylae completes Hanging Gardens.
370 - Scandinavia talks. They will only give Odense - size 3 island town north of the capital. Copenhagen and Stavanger (size 5) are at the "I doubt" level. Odense will only help us if we get helicopters. They now know Invention. Join 1 worker to Miami.
IT: 2 horsemen, 1 worker.
Scandinavian galley spotted near Chinan.
380 - Just MM
IT: Athens builds Sun Tzu's.
2 viking galleys near Caesaraugusta.
390 - Odense grows - I should perhaps have taken it.
Hurried Barracks in Caesaraugusta.
IT: Spearman survives 2 barb attacks.
Metallurgy ---> MT
Scandinavia lands 3 troops near Caesaraugusta (2 warriors, 1 MI.)
Caesaraugusta: barracks ---> horseman. Spearman upgraded.
400 - Greece knows Astronomy. They want Chemistry and 135 g. I take
it because I don't want to start MT with so few horsemen.
We sell Chemistry to Rome for 9gpt+70g.
Warrior pops 50 gold.
Los Angeles founded.
IT: Sorry, Caesaraugusta was captured. The odds were even but a warrior beat the musketman and our warrior was killed by the MI.
Cleveland founded. Lost 2 warriors to a barb warrior.
IT: S:t Louis: Library ---> marketplace
420 - Join 2 worker to Atlanta.
IT: Vikings: Great Library.
Tokyo: Statue of Zeus.
430 - Trade with Rome: Right of Passage, World Maps, and giving 1g. Then renew peace. Roman soldier looks threatening.
OK - I'll leave you with that. At least now Scandinavia will give us Caesaraugusta back for peace (without harbour.) We should perhaps wait one turn to see if Rome declares (In which case Caesaraugusta will be worthless.) But I've already been too bold on two occacions.
Northern Pike
Deity
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- Jul 29, 2003
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I haven't looked at the save, but I'm glad you did the Viking gift-and-retake, even if it didn't work. It would have been unenterprising not to try it.
Thanks NP. Yet I think it was stupid not to take Odense when I had the chance. I do think that after 20 turns we should ally everyone against Vikings (perhaps doing another, smaller giftscam) to try to get a hole punched in their core. Looking at how the map looks now we can hardly win at all.
This was the result after the discussion in beginning of maintainance thread:Megalou said:
Dont do this again...AlanH said:
This is unfortunate and I now regret making this highly normal move. I really can't apologize for not reading this meandering Dunkirk D....L that some players brought up. But for the sake of fairness to the other teams, a penalty of some sort would be welcome.
Northern Pike
Deity
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- 6,673
It's six days since Evil said he'd be away for about a week, so the situation is slightly ambiguous, but I assume Ronald is up, unless Evil posts that he's back.
A minor point: Houston should work its mined mountain until it completes its harbour.
A minor point: Houston should work its mined mountain until it completes its harbour.
Ronald
Emperor
I got the save and will play tonight.
Too bad with caesaraugusta
Ronald
Too bad with caesaraugusta
Ronald
Ay (which means "ouch" in Swedish). Too bad Vikings didn't build a single settler or worker for ten turns too. It seems to me that the AI gets paranoid about settling when there is a war on. Why don't they realize it's a fake war? So uncivilized! Good luck and have fun with the Golden Age.Ronald said:I got the save and will play tonight.
Too bad with caesaraugusta
Ronald
Emperor
Plan for my turns:
peace with scandinavia to get ceasaraugusta back
finish marketplaces in core cities, university in New York
research MT
upgrade horsemen to cavalry and start war with Greece
any other ideas?
I will start playing in about 5 hours
peace with scandinavia to get ceasaraugusta back
finish marketplaces in core cities, university in New York
research MT
upgrade horsemen to cavalry and start war with Greece
any other ideas?
I will start playing in about 5 hours
Northern Pike
Deity
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2003
- Messages
- 6,673
That sounds good. I think New York will need a marketplace before a university.
We have enough gold that looking into a couple of Greek cities before we declare war, so that we know what we're dealing with, might be a good idea.
We have enough gold that looking into a couple of Greek cities before we declare war, so that we know what we're dealing with, might be a good idea.
There is also a problem with war with Greece.
Greece itself isn't very dangerous, but they will be able to buy alliances. Especially the backwards civs will happily declare on us for a tech (though Greece might not value them enough, but that's quite a gamble). I don't like to endanger our overseas holdings.
If we don't want alliances ourselves (?)
, I think we need trades with everybody, so it gets more expensive to buy them. For example a peace renegotiation were we give a nice amount of gpt. Then try to get back most of it by selling techs (and luxes where possible).
Greece itself isn't very dangerous, but they will be able to buy alliances. Especially the backwards civs will happily declare on us for a tech (though Greece might not value them enough, but that's quite a gamble). I don't like to endanger our overseas holdings.
If we don't want alliances ourselves (?)
, I think we need trades with everybody, so it gets more expensive to buy them. For example a peace renegotiation were we give a nice amount of gpt. Then try to get back most of it by selling techs (and luxes where possible).Marketplace in NY first to get rid of the 10% luxury. With GA we'll get 4 turn research easily anyway.
Greece must be struck hard and decisively, so they don't have time to send troops to our overseas towns.
Greece must be struck hard and decisively, so they don't have time to send troops to our overseas towns.
Ronald
Emperor
turn 0 (430 AD): peace with scandinavia, get ceasaraugusta back, Houston use mountain
interturn: nothing
turn 1 (440 AD): rush spearman in caesaraugusta and Los Angeles
interturn: nothing
turn 2 (450 AD): Washington builds university -> horsemen, Miami builds harbor -> marketplace, Atlanta marketplace -> horseman
resaerched physics -> MT
turn 3 (460 AD): New York builds copernicus, we have our GA
My computer freezes on me. I cannot restart civ. Since I am travelling untill friday, I cannot repair it untill then. That sucks.
I load up my 460 AD save (just after the interturn, no MM done for the GA)
So klarius is up, I really hate not being able to play these turns.
Hopefully the saved file is not corrupt.
Ronald
interturn: nothing
turn 1 (440 AD): rush spearman in caesaraugusta and Los Angeles
interturn: nothing
turn 2 (450 AD): Washington builds university -> horsemen, Miami builds harbor -> marketplace, Atlanta marketplace -> horseman
resaerched physics -> MT
turn 3 (460 AD): New York builds copernicus, we have our GA
My computer freezes on me. I cannot restart civ. Since I am travelling untill friday, I cannot repair it untill then. That sucks.
I load up my 460 AD save (just after the interturn, no MM done for the GA)
So klarius is up, I really hate not being able to play these turns.
Hopefully the saved file is not corrupt.
Ronald
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