SGOTM8 - klarius

[klarius]

We don't want Tientsin to be the capital, but I also don't want China to stay on our island. In the end China will be a smaller problem than the others and maybe we can get somebody else to solve the problem.

Mao is insulted by the idea of giving Tientsin and I don't think this will change.
So I think we are better off capturing the cities on our island now and take the small cities. Note that we may settle some semi-productive towns on the Tatung-Shantung-Anyang island. The sw part of this island is nearer to the capital than the old chinese core.

If I talk of starving, I mean after capturing get rid of the chinese population. As long as there is resistance starve the cities with all scientists. After resistance ends one can also rush settlers or workers, but the population should go down to 1 as fast as possible. Just the standard procedure to reduce flip risk.

 

[Evil_Kanevil]

Hey guys. I took a look at the latest save, and we seem to be doing quite well. I could just see a small MM thing that the town north of our FP city should be working 3 grasslands instead of the hill it currently uses (can be done with a little tileswapping), so it gets an extra food/turn.

If we look at the big picture, I don't think we'll be able to win the game pre-advanced flight, but if we could get to and stay at 4 turn research while running a cash surplus we might be able to clean up on some islands. Would save us quite some time once we have all the techs that we need.

That island west of Miami, with a sheep and a lamb we should definitley try to get, so we should be ready to gift/declare on whatever civ that settles it.. Hopefully it will be the scandinavians so that our beachheads aren't jeopardized.

That being said, I've gone from being unemployed to swamped with work in just the last couple of days ... And I have to go away for about a week, without having civ access ... I'll be checking in to see how things are going, but I won't be able to play my next turn.

 

[Northern Pike]

I'm pessimistic about the Greeks as research partners, given their medium-sized, poorly developed empire. I agree with the idea of getting to cavalry as quickly as possible, conquering the Greek lands, and ICS-ing them soon enough to do us some real benefit.

This problem isn't upon us yet, but it's not obvious where we're going to get the settlers to ICS the north. The alternatives are so unpromising that if this were a solo game, I'd return Washington to its role as a four-turn settler factory at some point. As LKendter likes to point out, drawing the settlers for corrupt specialist cities from corrupt specialist cities is self-negating; and in this case it would cost rushing gold we need for other priorities, too.

I think Megalou makes an important point about what we could do with Flight but not Advanced Flight. Apart from the Scandinavian problem, we could accomplish a lot just with airports and bombers.

 

[Ronald]

I don't understand why we want Tientsin to be the capital? If it's the capital then we can't get it in a treaty. And with starving down did you mean, klarius, before or after we capture the cities?

We don't want it, but we can't do anything about it.
To handle the chinese I think we have a pretty simple plan:
1) remove all cities from our home continent
2) in peace treaty we get 4 cities (3 on the large and the one on the small island)
3) move Nanking so that china will build one more city on the island with Tientsin
4) gift cities to china as soon as they build the new city
5) get this city in peace treaty
6) destroy china

Do I see something wrong or is that the common understanding?

The question about flight or advanced flight is in my opinion rather philosophical at this moment. We can elaborate more about it further down the road. Of course it would be nice if we could win with flight only but as mentioned above it is too far away for a good prediction.

Greece as trading partner:
I think the most we can get from them is gunpowder and/or astronomy, and their free techs for the next 2 ages. I think we should limit them to one inland city at the end of middle ages.

When should we try the Vikings?
I would first remove the chineese from our continent (3 to 5 turns from now)
rush 4 warriors on the cities we got from china. So we could do it anytime from 5 to 7 turns from now. At this time we have education as trading item available to bring everybody into an alliance.

Any comments?

 

[Northern Pike]

Yes, that's my understanding of our anti-Chinese strategy. Another civ might beat the Chinese to the spot next to Tientsin after we abandon Nanking, but that probably wouldn't matter.

The Flight/Advanced Flight question isn't wholly theoretical, since it's more important to establish footholds overseas now if we hope to win with Flight alone.

I like your timetable for the Viking operation, but it occurs to me that there's something I don't understand about the gift-and-retake manoeuvre. When we station a warrior outside each gift city, give the cities away, and then declare war immediately before any garrisons appear--which I assume is what we've already done to the English, etc.--aren't we declaring with units in enemy territory? Why hasn't this wrecked our reputation?

Edit: On reflection, I suppose we're just accepting the damage to our reputation.

There is another complication, which is that if we do the gift-and-retake with Chinese cities before they've reached size two, we'll auto-raze them on the way back in.

 

[Ronald]

Edit: On reflection, I suppose we're just accepting the damage to our reputation.
There is another complication, which is that if we do the gift-and-retake with Chinese cities before they've reached size two, we'll auto-raze them on the way back in.

Yes, reputation no longer spotless.

No, I don't think they will be razed. They stay Chineese cities all the way. (back when we gifted San Antonio and St, Louis, they started with size two as american cities, we gifted to England, they lost one citizen and became English cities of size one. The next turn we gifted them to Rome and took them back. They were not auto-razed, stayed size 1 still English cities). The same should be the case when we gift a size one chineese city to scandinavia and take it back. It should stay a size one chineese city.

 

[klarius]

Our reputation is not influenced, as long as we don't break a 20 turn treaty. And that we should avoid.
Declaring with units in the enemy territory normally affects the RoP part of the reputation (not the trade reputation). But the turn the gifting takes place doesn't count AFAIK.

As Ronald already stated you just have to look that size one cities have population not from your enemy. Foreign citizens will keep their nationality when gifting.

The cities we get from China in the treaty will be our nationalty. They shouldn't be gifted, because then they would change to Viking and autoraze if size 1. Also the cities on the other islands should rather use their population for workers and settlers instead of wasting it for a gifting action. Especially on the larger island there is some nice land to get. I'm even thinking about abandoning one of the size 2 jungle towns for a settler to get a high food town in the southwest of the island.

But we will have enough chinese population cities on our island. And we have already units around to set up the retaking.

Another point. I don't like it, but I think we have to reduce science after education for some time. We need money for rushing. We really need a harbor for each of our islands, a few units, workers and settlers.

 

[Megalou]

The cities we get from China in the treaty will be our nationalty. They shouldn't be gifted, because then they would change to Viking and autoraze if size 1.

I hope everyone takes this to heart, since it conflicts with Ronald's otherwise reasonable plan. This also adds fuel to my opinion that we should do the gifting trick with Scandinavia ASAP. Seeing how we must gift continental cities, there is nothing to stop it. The money saved from not rushing warriors on the big jungle island should be spent defending our Roman towns against Scandinavia. Maybe we should not gift the biggest cities, as I suggested before, because then resistance would come back. (They would still be Chinese citizens, I did a test with another game.)

@Evil, If you don't believe in Flight, what is your reason? My reasons to believe in it are bombers and airports like Northern Pike mentioned. Why bombers, I have already explained. Why airports: nearly 1 cavalry per turn can be added to every island.

@Ciceronean, Disbanding that scout hasn't hurt us. Arguably a mistake, it saved some unit support money.

 

[Megalou]

Another point. I don't like it, but I think we have to reduce science after education for some time. We need money for rushing. We really need a harbor for each of our islands, a few units, workers and settlers.

Let's also consider courthouses against flips. Maybe temples too. In Scandinavia courthouse would be a must (but I'm really looking too far ahead...)

 

[klarius]

Maybe we should not gift the biggest cities, as I suggested before, because then resistance would come back.

The resistance will not come back, if we are at peace with China at that time. In fact one can get rid of resistance by that. So it would be best to do the gifting right after peace with China.

 

[Ronald]

The cities we get from China in the treaty will be our nationalty. They shouldn't be gifted, because then they would change to Viking and autoraze if size 1.

You are right. I thought the cities we will get have chineese citizens, but that's wrong, they have american citizens, so my plan does not work.

The Vikings will be a very special problem. Not their size is what matters, I am afraid of their UU, the beserk with the ability to fight from ships. It will be a very tough war since we have mostly coastal cities. To limit the risks, I would postpone to fight the real war with them (not the phony one to get a foothold on their island if possible) untill we have superior units to defend (at least riflemem, infantry would be even better)

 

[Ciceronian]

I've already played 3 turns but I've uploaded the game to take a little break and play on later. Here's the brief turnlog:

50 AD - Check general situation, MM a little in Detroit. Great Lighthouse built in Trondheim.
70 AD - Capture Beijing with Pyramids and Great Wall, one longbow killed, another made elite. Wait to attack Tsingtao till next turner with two more longbows. FP finishes in Miami, start library. Aquaeduct in Seattle, harbour next.
90 AD - Rome declares war on the English! This could be exciting! Only two spearmen in Tsingtao, capture without losses. Get 3 workers from the town. Tsientsin now chinese capital as anticipated. Finish research on education, start research on Banking at 5 turns, +28gpt, 369 gold in total. Move troops towards Xinjan.
110 AD - Nanking builds worker.

I have one or two queries though:

- Does the Roman-English war alter our warring strategy?

- Moving Nanking NW will still not let the Chinese build a city on the Tientsin island, I believe. We would have to move Nanking W or SW. I'm just about to do so so comments would be appreciated.

- Why not let the worker at Byzantium pop the goody hut before someone else does?

 

[Megalou]

Moving Nanking NW will still not let the Chinese build a city on the Tientsin island, I believe. We would have to move Nanking W or SW. I'm just about to do so so comments would be appreciated.

I agree with your conclusion.

- Why not let the worker at Byzantium pop the goody hut before someone else does?

Rome is not Expansionist, so they might not be so eager to pop it. But I wouldn't mind that hut being popped either.

I don't see any real effect on strategy because of the Roman-English war.

 

[Evil_Kanevil]

I have one or two queries though:

- Does the Roman-English war alter our warring strategy?

It might mean that the romans will switch government to monarchy, which makes a worse research partner than before.

- Moving Nanking NW will still not let the Chinese build a city on the Tientsin island, I believe. We would have to move Nanking W or SW. I'm just about to do so so comments would be appreciated.

I agree.

- Why not let the worker at Byzantium pop the goody hut before someone else does?

I think, because the way GH techs are selected is that it picks the cheapest tech which you aren't currently researching? That would mean that if we picked it now, we would get printing press which we don't really want... So it would be better if we could get trade for PP or music theory, set research on the other tech and pop the hut.. But I might be wrong

I also noticed through civassist that caesaraugusta is about to riot, but I'm sure you have that under control

@Megalou:

@Evil, If you don't believe in Flight, what is your reason? My reasons to believe in it are bombers and airports like Northern Pike mentioned. Why bombers, I have already explained. Why airports: nearly 1 cavalry per turn can be added to every island.

Actually, I take that back. At first, conquering the world without boats seemed too large a project to pull off. That, and the fact that we can only DoW each civ every 20 turns in order not to destroy our peace treaty rep... But like I said, now that I have slept on it and gotten some more understanding on how you planned to go ahead, I do believe it can be done.
Sorry about the sceptisism... When we get there, it'll be crucial to do take on the civs in the right order, so that we always have our next target within bombing range.

 

[Ciceronian]

I think, because the way GH techs are selected is that it picks the cheapest tech which you aren't currently researching? That would mean that if we picked it now, we would get printing press which we don't really want... So it would be better if we could get trade for PP or music theory, set research on the other tech and pop the hut.. But I might be wrong

Goody huts only yield techs in the AA, but not in the MA. We will most probably get gold, or perhaps a warrior or a map.

Next turn I will take the last continental Chinese city. A peace treaty will yield all Chinese cities except their capital Tientsin and Macao, the city with the spices in its radius.

I'll probably finish my turn set early tomorrow though.

 

[Megalou]

Sorry about the sceptisism...

Not at all. We may fail but it sounds like a fun goal to shoot for. And we'll hopefully get a second chance.

 

[Ciceronian]

AlanH has posted the QSC statistics for SGOTM8 here.

We're 3rd overall! Most importantly of all though, we seem to have a massive tech lead which as we have discussed is an important factor this game.

 

[Ronald]

Hi Ciceronian,

Do yo have any problems playing the remaining 7 turns?

Ronald

 

[Ciceronian]

Thanks for asking Ronald, but due to real-life duties I only played another 4 turns. I'm also not sure about doing a phony war with the Vikings or how to proceed in research so I cut my turn short a little. The save is here

And the turnlog is here:
130 AD - Beijing flips - so I retake immediately without losses. I then take Xinjian, which was garrisoned with 3 spears. Capture 2 workers, lose 1 longbow in the attack. Make peace with the Chinese for all their cities except Macao and capital Tientsin. The new cities are: Tatung, Anyang and Shantung on the large island to the east, and Chinan, on the small island to the east of that. I also get their WM and 9 gold. Afterwards move Nanking SW. Shanghai builds worker. Trade Education to the Romans for Chivalry, and to the Greeks for 11 gold and 24gpt. We need them as research partners. Banking now 3 turns, +50gpt. Worker near Byzantium pops GH for 50 gold. In total we have 492 gold.
150 AD - Nothing special.
170 AD - Bost builds harbour. Start work on marketplace. Philadelphia builds harbour, start marketplace. Atlanta builds aqueduct, build harbour.
190 AD - Scandinavia and Rome sign peace treaty. Finish research on Banking. Rome and Greece didn't research anything useful. Grrrr.... So I start on Gunpowder, 5 turns, 45 gpt.

 

[Ronald]

Nice turns Ciceronian.

Do you want to finish the remaining turns or do you want Megalou to start?
(So we can blame him if the war with the Vikings turns out to be a desaster )

Ronald