SGOTM8 - klarius

[Evil_Kanevil]

Save here


930 AD:
Take Warwick without further losses (1-0).
Then gift 24 cities to the greek, declare war on the greece, and retake our cities.
Damn, lost a couple of airfields in the coup. They apparently disappear if they come within the territory of a non-flight civ.
Follow up by taking Rhodes without losses (2-0)
MM a little to get mass production in 4 turns.

940 AD:
Troops are set up to take Marathon and Thessalonica next turn. Build a couple bombers. Quiet turn.

950 AD:
Peace with England. They gladly surrender both Dover and Liverpool. It was a tight deal though, I couldn't get two extra workers with the peace treaty..

Crappy RNG. I fail to capture both Thessalonica and Marathon. Marathon has 1 defender left, Thessa has 2.

 

[Megalou]

They gladly surrender both Dover and Liverpool.

Brilliant!

In other words, since we're certainly going to break a peace treaty with the Vikings, should we RoP-rape them too to get our money's worth?

We should ROP rape them only after we've claimed a town on their continent. Breaking peace treaties and breaking ROPs have nothing to do with each other. Nor will ROP rape do us much good in the first Vikings war.

 

[Northern Pike]

Evil, you made the attacks on Thessalonica and Marathon in reasonable strength, so don't worry about the RNG.

We've left mobilization, presumably due to peace with England. We need to return to it.

We have a barb problem around Ephesus that we need to correct before hitting Enter.

We should probably airlift a couple of workers into the Troy area to build more airfields, so that we can move our fairly substantial forces there away quickly when it's time.

A Roman galley is in sight of Tientsin, so the time has come to start using our eight bombers which can strike Tientsin without rebasing--those bombers at least--to hit the city. This may slow down the bombardment of Scandinavia a little, but I think our game will be won or lost at Tientsin.

We should ROP rape them only after we've claimed a town on their continent. Breaking peace treaties and breaking ROPs have nothing to do with each other. Nor will ROP rape do us much good in the first Vikings war.

OK, useful to know.

 

[Paul#42]

any pictures for the lurking masses?

 

[klarius]

Good job on war
I only looked shortly into the save. Some observations:

- we should still sell medicine to Rome, so Greece cannot buy them into war against us.

- I don't like that we gave up our trade reputation for 2 turns faster start on Greece (well I should have looked and posted before ). And I'm also not sure that it is best to take all the reachable greek cities. In former games, I got the impression that they even are more reluctant to give their last non-capital cities.

- I don't understand why we didn't go for London instead of another English city (well, I see, NP wanted it this way ). Now we miss the roads in London territory.

-I think we should give up Liverpool for a worker, build an airfield and airlift some units there. We will have to defend the territory against settlers then, to not lose the airfield. We should not risk our foothold to either a flip or the coming up war with Rome. Naturally building a worker there is too slow. An airport would probably be too expensive.
Also Dover is a problem. England may sneak attack us any time. The AI does sometimes strange things. Maybe an airfield and units would also be better than risking the city for 7 turns until a worker can be built. If we risk to give the boot order to England, they might attack and they or somebody else may settle the island again. So we would need 2 units first, which again is very expensive.

- Mobilization is fine, if we really use the extra production.
This means severe micromanagement. I doubt we gained much in the last mobilization phase.

-We are running high flip risks in several cities, because of all the city gifting. Be prepared to retake them when they flip.

-Build airfields everywhere!

 

[Ronald]

Before I start playing tonight and tomorrow a few questions:

We have already a rep hit because of Greece. Do you want to stick with the peace treaties for Japan, England and Greece (after we got the 2 crucial cities of course), or should we wipe them out as soon as we safely can?

I want to mobilze and change Washington to 1 cav a turn. Any objections?

On a technicality: How do I rush a worker in size one cities?

I am planning the gifting city excercise for Scandinavia. After gifting and retaking I will bomb Odense and Oslo untill we get both (in the next turnset).
Objections?

The dyes deal with Rome is running out: renew? klarius mentioned a new deal with medicine. Should I make these deals? We will break the deals eventually, but I don't think it will matter at that time.

I see a number of conscript riflemen and infantry. What specific purpose are they for?

 

[klarius]

We have already a rep hit because of Greece. Do you want to stick with the peace treaties for Japan, England and Greece (after we got the 2 crucial cities of course), or should we wipe them out as soon as we safely can?

I have the impression that breaking peace deals, where you received cities, still decreases your chance for future deals. I would rather have them still around at the time we have to deal with Rome and ally them then against Rome. We will then break all the alliances, but Rome will not care.

I want to mobilze and change Washington to 1 cav a turn. Any objections?

No

On a technicality: How do I rush a worker in size one cities?

Rush the worker. Then assign a specialist so that you have no food surplus. You will be asked the next turn if you want to abandon the city.

I am planning the gifting city excercise for Scandinavia. After gifting and retaking I will bomb Odense and Oslo untill we get both (in the next turnset).
Objections?

Good luck! And sink their ships.

The dyes deal with Rome is running out: renew? klarius mentioned a new deal with medicine. Should I make these deals? We will break the deals eventually, but I don't think it will matter at that time.

Make deals where useful. And medicine right away so that we don't get into war with Rome prematurely.
If Rome should destroy China they will declare anyways and break the deals. Even if they don't do it in time, we might get (and should seek) the opportunity for them to declare on us.

 

[Ronald]

I am a bit concerned about England. They will have a longbowman next to Rome's cities. If they are stupid enough to declare on Rome. Rome could divert their ships to London and not to Tientsin. Also their are some more English troops in the jungle. If we destroy London, they will all be gone.
My proposal would be no breaking with Japan and Greece, but destroy England.
But if you absolutely don't want me to do it, OK.

Please let me know.

 

[Evil_Kanevil]

I am a bit concerned about England. They will have a longbowman next to Rome's cities. If they are stupid enough to declare on Rome. Rome could divert their ships to London and not to Tientsin. Also their are some more English troops in the jungle. If we destroy London, they will all be gone.
My proposal would be no breaking with Japan and Greece, but destroy England.
But if you absolutely don't want me to do it, OK.

If things work as I think they do, I really think we shouldn't break our peace treaty with England, since it'll ruin our ability to get good gift-and-retake deals and we'll never have a chance at getting rome's or scandinavias island cities.

Klarius:

- Mobilization is fine, if we really use the extra production.
This means severe micromanagement. I doubt we gained much in the last mobilization phase.

I think we gained quite alot from using mobilization, and unless I missed some MM issue, it wasn't that bad. It definitley allows us to use NY as a 2 turn bomber factory instead of 3 turns. And, yeah, maybe it's better to use washington as a 1 turn cavalry factory, but I felt bombers were urgent to deal with dover and the chinese capital.

And I agree, do the medicine deal with rome.

 

[klarius]

I don't think that the odd chance that England declares on Rome should drive us anywhere. The units to destroy Tientsin are hopefully underway already. Rome will use mainly units, which are on the English island already if they want to attack London.
I'm not quite sure what breaking treaties really does, but I know that in games where I don't care, I end up in a situation where I don't get cities anymore in treaties, no matter how much damage I did before.
Keeping the weaklings around gives us more diplomatic options and for the war with Rome, we can still use the distractions by allies. Rome will not be a push-over like the others.

 

[Ronald]

OK, I keep the weaklings and get the big fish - Scandinavia

 

[Megalou]

I have no objections but maybe we should build a worker in Dover, abandoning the town, then build an airfield and just fill up the island with a few of those drafted riflemen. The same goes for Liverpool. But it all depends on those English workers, if they are disbanded or not. If they are not, England will still be able to settle, in which case I don't think they should be abandoned.

any pictures for the lurking masses?

I think you can open our saves from the Progress and Results page in CivAssist II, but I don't want to be inhospitable. Here is 950 AD:

 

[Megalou]

I'm a bit surprised that no one has mentioned the big risks of a war with Rome within 3 or 4 turns. I suspect that's what the drafts were for. The riflemen should be upgraded to infantry, the cavalries in old England should make their way to old Japan next turn. (Very few will be needed to take the Roman colonies in old England later.) Some bombers in the core should be changed to cavalry. The horseman in Nagasaki should be upgraded.

If you don't capture any Greek workers when (if) you mop up the Greek towns, capture the one currently standing northwest of Warwick, for airfield of course.

I'm the only one who saw the Roman stack of MIs move towards Yokohama...

Otherwise: looking good.

 

[Megalou]

I'll share a piece of tactics concerning battle in the age of rails:

It's useful to remember that as long as a unit has a green movement circle, it will heal next turn, unless it is in enemy territory. This means that it can move along railroads before fortifying, and position itself in a good spot, preferably in barracks, the turn after its attack.

 

[Megalou]

Consider using a bomber to reduce Thessalonica to size 6 before attack to avoid losses. But I guess you've played past that part already

 

[Ronald]

But I guess you've played past that part already

How did you know

here is my turn log:

turn 0 (950 AD) destroy barb camp for 25g, increase gpt to 233

interturn: Rome lands one pathetic MI near tientsin but 2 more ships are on the way

turn 1 (960 AD) move 8 bomber to reach and return from Tientsin in 1 turn, move other bombers to reach Odense and Oslo; gift and retake cities to scandinavia
micromanage to get a gpt of 281; trade medicine with Rome for 13gpt + furs

interturn: Rome MI destroyed

turn 2 (970 AD) conquer Marathon, build airfields, bomb Odense, Oslo, Tientsin; send 2 riflmen to aifield Liverpool and Argos; MM to get Motorized transport to 4 turns and gpt to 239

interturn: 3 Roman ships are coming to Tientsin; unfortunately its 2 frigates and one galleon; two more ships to the far South; Vikings land 2 MI near Yokohama

turn 3 (980 AD): Kill one MI with Longbowman; Horseman got redlined MI unhurt, move spearman for defense and airlift 2 cavalry next to MI
Take Eretria no loss; Tessalonica 1 loss; peace treaty with Greece: Get Herakleia, Argos, 23g 9gpt; Greece is down to Mycenae
Bomb Tientsin to size 3, Odense to size 3, Oslo to size 5; micromanage for gpt of 271
return to mobilization. All shields are back to normal because of peace with Greece. I don't know if they are back ti mobilization in the interturn
interturn: Romans finish Magellan, MI kills spearman,

turn 4 (990 AD): kill MI, bomb Tientsin and Odense to size 2, Oslo to 4, more airfields, rush worker in argos, don't know what to do in Herakleia, mm to 275 gpt

interturn: Rome lands another pathetic MI, Rome and Japan sign mutual protection

turn 5 (1000 AD): bomb oslo to size 2; peace treaty with Scandinavia for Oslo and odense, Yes, going well back to mobilization, bomb Tientsin to size one, redline defenders,
build some more airfields and mm to 317 gpt. Atomic theory should be possible in 5 turns

klarius: I left many units and workers for you to move. I still have my doubt about the Romans. There is only one more caravelle approaching and There are about 6 spearmen and one longbow in Tientsin.
We should keep the high research rate untill we know anything about Tientisn.
You have now 1855g + 317 coming this turn.
Endland, Greece and China are down to one city. Japan has two.
So far we have 12 cavs on the Roman continent. They still don't have electricity, so we won't have to fight infantry, just riflemen.
Before we start the fight with Rome we should do another gifting excercise and as soon as they give up Elianorum and Ebucarum we should have peace (not for long tough).
Scandinavia is behind, they don't have Nationalsim yet, so we only have to face muskets. When we disconnect their only iron and salpeter, they are down to spears.
So a two front war with a handful cavs and some bombers against Scandinavia and the main force against Rome could be done. Or if you wait another five turns before Rome, you could eliminate Scandinavia completely.
Even when tientsin does not fall, we should win before 1200 AD.
Destroy everything but Tientsin and the one or two Roman islands we don't get with peace treaties, Then send helis to these few cities and kill them in max 3 turns:
turn 1: fly there, turn 2: build airfield and airlift units, turn 3: conquer.
We should learn atomic theory in 1060 AD, Electronics in 1110 AD, Advanced flight in 1160 AD

You will have fun turns to play, too bad we decided to play only 5 turns each, I would have enjoyed 5 more turns. Given my projections, I won't have to lay another set of turns, we will finish before.
Megalou probably will have the honors to conquer the world.

 

[Northern Pike]

Edit: Oops, everything below the quote here is a fairly dramatic cross-post. Fine work, Ronald.

That's bad news about Tientsin's garrison, though.

Sorry to pick on a minor point after such a good round, but what do you mean when you refer to moving eight bombers in 960 AD so they could "reach and return" from Tientsin? We already had eight bombers in range of Tientsin, I'm pretty sure.

I see a number of conscript riflemen and infantry. What specific purpose are they for?

I suspect just to give us enough units for large gift-and-retakes. We have very few ground combat units apart from cav.

I agree that we have to honour our peace treaties for the moment.

Washington as one-turn cav factory: great.

Bombing Odense and Oslo after a large GAR: absolutely. There doesn't seem to be much reaction in these comments to the fact that the Romans are approaching Tientsin, though. I still think that helping the Romans with substantial bombing of Tientsin is crucial to our hopes of victory.

 

[Ciceronian]

Well done Ronald, good play. Advanced Flight in 1160 AD means Wacken would beat us, they seem to have won at that date.
Perhaps if everyone wants some of the action then we could reduce the turn times further, say to 3 turns? If everyone takes 24 to 48 hours to pass on the save it should still be fine. I could imagine every turn takes quite long so this may make sense.

 

[Megalou]

Great stuff, even better than I had hoped for just 5 turns.

I would not be ashamed to lose to Team Wacken, but I think we should postpone the Roman war, eliminate Scandinavia first, to give the Tientsin plan a real chance. Now that we don't really need bombers in Scandinavia, we can blow Tientsin to "smithereens" every turn. Some of the Roman MIs should be able to win battles without hit point losses and thus be able to attack again. Moreover, we need some tanks to hit Rome hard enough. I assume all that saved gold is for hurrrying tanks in corrupt towns?

3 turns per round is fine with me.

 

[Ronald]

Well done Ronald, good play. Advanced Flight in 1160 AD means Wacken would beat us, they seem to have won at that date.
Perhaps if everyone wants some of the action then we could reduce the turn times further, say to 3 turns? If everyone takes 24 to 48 hours to pass on the save it should still be fine. I could imagine every turn takes quite long so this may make sense.

Wacken has not won at this date. This was their last save before they submitted the win save. Their actual win could be anything between 1170 and 1260 AD