SGOTM8 - klarius

[Ronald]

@ Northern Pike:

We should already start to plan for our helicopters. We need them in cities where they can reach Tientsin and the Roman cities in one turn. Most of these cities are corrupt, so we will need to disband some units there or have enough cash to rush the helis.
We should leave at least one larger city to Rome and bomb the two island cities to size 1 untill Rome is prepared for a peace talk. Hopefully we can get both islands, or at least one.

 

[Northern Pike]

OK, got it. The point now is to play well, not quickly, so don't expect a fast turnaround.

Ciceronian, good luck at Cambridge. I hope you like histograms.

A question for the team: how dangerous do we feel it is to raze cities in this position? There are probably going to be situations in which it would be useful, in particular to give us workers and so instant airfields. But if the general opinion is that it would provoke the AI into building too many settlers, I'll try to avoid it.

Are we still working on the principle that peace-treaty reputation and RoP reputation are different, so that we can start eliminating minor opponents before we RoP-rape the Vikings?

 

[Megalou]

Are we still working on the principle that peace-treaty reputation and RoP reputation are different, so that we can start eliminating minor opponents before we RoP-rape the Vikings?

I maintain this. But in a sensitive situation like this, it would be good if someone corroborates. Nothing sure in this world.

 

[Ronald]

A question for the team: how dangerous do we feel it is to raze cities in this position?

I don't think it is very dangerous, we already abandoned cities with foreigners. Not much difference to my knowledge.

.......so that we can start eliminating minor opponents before we RoP-rape the Vikings?

I would elimiate them right after the Rome RoP-rape just to be sure that there are no settlers available. For the same reason I would keep a few bombers next to Tientsin and the remaining Roman islands. As somebody wrote much, much earlier: It would be terrible to loose a few turns just because we have to chase a settler on a boat.

On another note: I will be travelling in Eastern Europe untill wednesday, so I won't be able to contribute much to the discussions during the next days. Not that I think it would be essential anyway

I'm already curious how far we are on wednesday.

 

[klarius]

Re city razing:
In principle ok. Especially if we have (or can build) a railnet to react quickly on settlers. It's better when the settlers go to places where we can access them (there are still empty islands, where settlers would be a PITA).
But in many cases we will need the culture border, to move our troops further.

Another note for advanced flight. We might also want to prebuild some paratroopers. They are lousy fighters, but they can move via the railnet and then drop in one turn, while helicopters will have to be rebased first. Especially for Tientsin they may be useful, because there are so many weak units to kill.

 

[Ciceronian]

Thanks everyone for wishing me well. Once I have my comp set up in Cambridge I should still be posting here on CFC now and then.
I still consider myself part of this team and will continue reading every post. And I will also bask in the glory of a win if you guys manage to pull it off.

 

[Megalou]

(there are still empty islands, where settlers would be a PITA)

We should prebuild some helicopters near those islands, eg the dry one south of Scandinavia.

 

[Northern Pike]

1090 AD--most units still have movement

BTW, I've been having a lot of technical trouble with the game--typically the "unable to allocate draw-buffer" fatal error. I doubt that this will affect the save, but if there's any problem, let me know.

 

[Northern Pike]

1050 (1): I get "They would never accept such a deal" when I look into an RoP with the English. I assume this is because we're allied to the Romans--but after we've stabbed the Romans, we get the same result.

I select six cities we can GAR without upsetting our tech arrangements and gift them to the Romans.

We declare war on the Japanese, capture the workers near Hakodate, and provoke the Roman declaration of war, in that order.

We retake the GAR cities.

We take Rome from its garrison of five riflemen, losing a tank and a cav and sinking at least three ships when we enter the city (8-2). The ugly feature of this attack was that the ships kept absorbing the attacks of our bombers, so after three sorties I stopped sending them.

We take Jerusalem (held by two riflemen) without loss, getting some use out of one of our Crusaders (10-2).

We take Neapolis (three riflemen) without loss after bombing it down to size six (13-2).

Our attempts to bomb Veii and Ravenna produce mostly useless slaughters of the population. That won't happen when we bomb Rome's islands, of course.

We take Ravenna (three riflemen) without loss (16-2).

We take Veii (just two riflemen) at the cost of a tank (18-3). We raze the city, so as to get a flip-proof rebase site for our bombers next turn.

We take Caesarea (a rifleman and a spearman) without loss (20-3).

We take Cumae (two riflemen), but a super-rifleman costs us two cav (22-5). We raze the town--not my first choice, but with nine Roman MDI adjacent we couldn't hold it.

We have enough cav left to pick off two Legionaries and three Roman MDI around Neapolis (27-5).

We take Tarentum on Byzantium Island (two riflemen), though it costs us a tank (29-6).

I begin lumberjacking the corrupt cities where we'll want to build helicopters.

We lose a cav and defeat an MDI when the Romans counterattack (30-7).


1060 (2): We take Hakodate (two spearmen and a longbowman) without loss, sinking a galley on the way in (34-7).

We take Kagoshima (two pikemen, one LB) and eliminate the Japanese (37-7), after which we have to re-mobilize.

We take Nicopolis on Byzantium Island, held by a rifleman and a musketman (39-7).

We take Nicomedia (two riflemen, one LB), losing a cav (42-8).

On the main Roman front we found the tactical town of French Lick and rebase our bombers, but otherwise settle for a healing turn.

We trample a barb warrior near Marathon (43-8).

The first Roman cav unit appears, and destroys a full-strength tank in French Lick (43-9).

A Roman LB dies attacking our cav force in Nicomedia (44-9).


1070 (3): We overrun a Roman cav blocking our road to Antium (45-9).

We attack Antium, a size-eleven hill city, and despite heavy bombing lose two tanks to overcome the garrison of three riflemen (48-11).

We abandon Antium and found the tactical town of West Lafayette.

We take Pisae, held by three riflemen (51-11).

We lose a cav storming Lutetia (three riflemen; 54-12).

We take Pompeii (two riflemen) at the cost of a cav (56-13).

Outside cities we pick off two Roman LB and a Roman rifleman (59-13).

One of our tanks defeats the attack of a Roman LB (60-13).

The Romans land a cav and an MDI next to Tientsin.


1080 (4): On Byzantium Island we take Syracuse (three riflemen), then destroy two riflemen and a galley in Brundisium but don't have enough attacks to take the city (66-13).

We take Artaxata (two riflemen), and now control all of that island (68-13).

We take Londinium (rifleman and musketman) on the northern two-city island, later abandoning it for tactical reasons (70-13).

We take York (two riflemen and one LB) in the middle of our English position (73-13), capturing a worker.

On the main Roman front we take Viroconium (three riflemen) and Hispalis (four riflemen), capturing a worker in the latter (80-13).

At Tientsin the Romans destroy either two or three Chinese units, between offense and defense, although the MDI dies.

Electronics --> Advanced Flight, due in four turns.


1090 (5): We auto-raze Hippo Regius (one spearman) on the northern two-city island, capturing a just-built settler before it can get on a boat (81-13).

We defeat the LB now holding Brundisium alone and take the city (82-13).

We take Palmyra (two riflemen and an LB), capturing two workers and finally generating our first Great Leader (85-13).

A look into London establishes that we should be able to finish off the English in one turn, so we declare war.

We take English-held Seleucia (two spearmen), capturing two workers (87-13).

We occupy English Yokohama, which has no garrison.

We storm London (three spearmen and a galley) and eliminate the "Weak English" (91-13).

Well, we now face the final set of decisions, so I'll turn the game over here. Most of our units still have their movement, including all our bombers.

Thirteen elite victories this round produced one Great Leader.

 

[Northern Pike]

The Romans are down to their capital of Lugdunum and the two island cites, and they'll give us the island cities for peace, even though we haven't bombed Eburacum and it's still at size three. So after we make peace and get the islands we can either stab them this turn, or hold off in the hope that they'll do more of our work for us at Tientsin. There's a Roman galleon off Denver which will probably land something more next to Tientsin, but I think it came from Artaxata, in which case it may only contribute one unit.

I think we should make peace with the Romans, stab them, and take Lugdunum right now, on the grounds that (1) we need to know as soon as possible whether they've got any settlers out, (2) there's not much doubt that we can take Tientsin with helicopters in 1130-40 if it's the only island city we have to seize this way, (3) flips could still hurt us, and (4) we need a free hand to start arranging the Viking RoP-rape. But it's a significant enough decision that I wanted to give the team a chance to comment.

There are two Roman task forces at sea in addition to the two we can observe, both of which I last saw last turn. There was a caravel-frigate pair two tiles east of Byzantium, and a force of three frigates and a galleon four tiles NE of Pompeii. Both groups seemed to be moving north, though the force off Pompeii may have gone east to try to pick up the settler we captured in Hippo Regius.

If we do attack Lugdunum this turn, we have the option of using the settler in Caesaraugusta to replace Ravenna, letting us attack with tanks. This might economize on bombers and let us rebase more of them.

Note that we don't have to attack the stack of six Roman MDI near Ravenna to clear our rail lines. The two workers on the adjacent hill can build a road, and then others can move in to rail it. As far as I know, the thirteen MDI we can see in the Roman heartland are all that survive. They pose a threat to the airfield at which we've got ten bombers, which will have to be attended to if we neither eliminate the Romans nor keep the peace with them through the interturn.

We have Roman war weariness, though with nine luxuries it hasn't mattered so far.

We aren't mobilized at the moment, due to the end of the English war. Of course I think we should re-mobilize, but I haven't done it yet in case anyone can think of anything clever we should do first.

Our Great Leader is still next to Palmyra, with all his movement.

We can move units off Byzantium Island very quickly now, because we have plenty of workers there to build airfields. The same is true of the now-citiless northern island and the Palmyra-Seleucia area--and, for that matter, the Roman continent.

The four airports we've got going in corrupt homeland cities are helicopter pre-builds (Hangchow's may be too far from Tientsin, though), considerably bolstered by lumberjacking. I've built one veteran infantry, with a second about to complete, because if my assumption that these are the best units with which we can attack Tientsin the turn after we get AF is correct (it may not be--by all means comment), we'll need quite a few. Apart from this, though, my policy on the builds needed for the attack on Tientsin has just been to keep our options open; so any of my builds in our core can be changed, and the whole thing needs to be worked out in full detail as soon as we know where we stand with the Romans.

We have a settler in Washington which may be tactically useful when we attack Tientsin.

The Vikings have Nationalism, and so presumably riflemen. We should still be able to wipe them out quickly with a RoP-rape (they'll grant us the RoP), but careful execution will matter.

We shouldn't take Mycenae for granted. If its garrison is as large as Tientsin's was until recently we'll have a fair amount of work to do there.

I've already lumberjacked the five tiles SE of San Antonio and the three (omitting Nanking) NW of Baltimore. Another tile next to Baltimore is getting its forest now.

I'll repeat this just to be safe: We aren't mobilized right now.

 

[Northern Pike]

Rome's last stand:

 

[klarius]

Looks really nice

We should for sure backstab Rome right away. Look if you can get RoP after the peace. That would make Lugdunum pretty easy, because you can move in everything with legs and wheels.
Even if the advisor says they would never do it, it might be possible giving them techs (that's a general thing, never trust the advisor ). But it may even be quite cheap - we didn't RoP rape them until now.
Before the Roman backstab we should have RoP with everybody. I think even China, so we can peacefully drop our troops.
Then I would say take out Greece, while most troops go into scandinavia. Best to ally Vikings against Greece, so there is no premature war. MPP, lux trade giving them techs are all possible.

The best attackers we can get for Tientsin are infantry. But we will probably not be able to build enough helicopters in range to take them out in 1 turn. Cities farther away could prebuild paratroopers to complete via TBP. They can move on rails and then drop the same turn from a city or airfield. For spears they should be good enough.

We should now sell all unnecessary buildings. Barracks and harbors to be kept only where they give an advantage (no more than 1 per corrupt island and some islands may not need any).

And BTW, watch the domination limit .

 

[Northern Pike]

The best attackers we can get for Tientsin are infantry. But we will probably not be able to build enough helicopters in range to take them out in 1 turn.

I'm not against building some paratroops too for insurance, but this seems pessimistic. Four helicopters to drop twelve veteran inf next to Tientsin in 1130 shouldn't be beyond our power, given that we have three pre-builds going in cities within range, and have various options--more lumberjacking, disbanding, a little cash-rushing. I was cautious about our research schedule, and Megalou can probably squeeze out some more gpt while staying at the four-turn rate if he wants to do the work.

 

[Megalou]

Great play, NP. I fear you have made it too easy for my peace of mind!

I agree to the idea of (hopefully) eliminating Rome right away. There may be a slight chance that Rome will take Tientsin, but that's hoping too much given the tight time schedule. Thank you for supplying info about which tiles have already been lumberjacked. If I run into any uncertainties once I have the game in front of me I'll post here.

klarius, I agree to RoP with all. But I would like to have units in Scandinavia first.

Regarding failure to get RoP with England, I have run into this before with furious AIs. You have a clean rep but they still won't sign. It may be that they are too far down on the dislike scale.

 

[Northern Pike]

Regarding failure to get RoP with England, I have run into this before with furious AIs. You have a clean rep but they still won't sign. It may be that they are too far down on the dislike scale.

Ah, that's useful to know.

We should be able to take all remaining enemy cities by 1140, but there's still some interesting technical play involved. Good luck!

 

[Megalou]

We should be able to take all remaining enemy cities by 1140

That's what I mean by upsetting my peace of mind

 

[Megalou]

Mind if I start?

If the 5 healthy cavalries fail to take Lugdunum, there may be some problems. I guess I will do some bombarding to be sure. I will use cavalry on Greece and tanks on Scandinavia, predominantly.

Do you know if armies can be airlifted? If so, I should perhaps make an army out of Washington in order to get another chance of a leader.

 

[klarius]

Well, you can get tanks into play at Lugdunum by either replacing Ravenna with a city 1 east, as proposed by NP, or getting RoP from Rome.
In the latter case you can even railroad the tile adjacent to Lugdunum before the attack. Together with the other road and railroad suggested by NP you should be able to get more attackers there. And you even might be able to send them to Scandinavia afterwards.

Armies cannot be airlifted.

 

[Megalou]

Armies cannot be airlifted.

Thanks. I can understand your surprise, but I meant empty armies. They are after all just one unit.

I will raze Ravenna and settle near Lugdunum. It has a vet rifleman and so the cavalries are underdogs.

 

[Megalou]

I just played out the turn.

1090 - Peace with Rome for remaining towns, 24 gold. Eburacum gives us 3 beakers, even with an entertainer.

Built an airfield near Palmyra.
Checked Lugdunum with a worker to find a vet rifleman.
Razed Ravenna and built New Philadelphia.
Signed RoP with Scandinavia and Greece. Made peace with China for RoP and some gpt. After some consideration I signed with Rome too. The other civs will go crazy but they don't have the muscle to do anything about it.

Moved 5 tanks into position at the Lugdunum doorstep. Two were at 3/4 or 4/5 hipoints but if airlifted, they wouldn't heal this turn anyway.

Declared on Rome.
First tank retreats. Second tank wins but is redlined (1-0). Third tank retreats. Fourth tank wins (2-0). Fifth tank loses (2-1). Cavalry is deployed. Elite cavalry wins (3-1). Elite cavalry loses (3-2). 8 bombers are deployed, redlining the two riflemen. Vet cavalry loses (3-3), rifleman upgraded. Another bombing run redlines rifleman. Vet cavalry loses (3-4). Vet cavalry wins (4-4), revealing a healthy Roman MI. No more bombers to use. Vet cav wins (5-4). Vet cav wins over the last redlined rifleman (6-4).

Rome is gone! We had deplorable RNG - as if the game felt a sense morality, but at least the job was done. Now I turn to Scandinavia and hurry barracks in Oslo to get the wounded attackers healed there sooner. These units will save a turn of healing, because there are railroads on the Oslo airfields.

Checked Mycenae with a rifleman: hoplite defender.
Airlifted tanks to near Oslo and cavalries to near Mycaene stopping at 9. The Mycenae cavalries are healthy. Wounded cavalries from last turn move into Lutetia (barracks) without movement loss.

Airlifted reg infantry and musketman back home.
Airlifted foreign workers from the core to south of Mycenae equal to the number of cavalry units stationed there (9).

Failed to airlift settler to Scandinavia because so many airfields had been used.

A conscript infantry unit was killed while attacking a barb (!)

Mobilized.

So far we have near Oslo:
9 cavalries
12 tanks
We are 323 tiles from the limit. Razing towns in Scandinavia will fit nicely. The Scandinavians will try to resettle the land instead of putting their settlers in boats.

We will probably be dependent on cavalries to take the 8 viking towns in 4 turns from next one. It will not be as easy as I thought.

Before pressing spacebar I will look into the lumberjack business near Tientsin.

That's it for today. I have not submitted a save. See you tomorrow night.